Cheese's custom revamp of the HUNTER core sets!
HUNTER CORE SET REVAMP
Introduction
Neoguli's post kickstarted me to finish my own
After Priest and Shaman, it is Hunter's turn to have its core sets revised. I have all classes ready. However, neoguli already dealt with Warlock, Druid, Rogue, Warrior, and Paladin. For the moment, I will focus on classes that weren't modified yet.
In terms of core set quality, Hunter is above average, although its sets aren't as good as Mage's or Rogue's. The main issue with Hunter's current set is its one-dimensionality. Up to 2017, Hunter was a one-dimensional class with an extremely linear gameplay. It had only one viable archetype (at best), oscillating between face and midrange.
After 2017, internal diversity increased: Egg, Cube, No-minion, Big, etc... Deathstalker Rexxar enabled late-game-oriented Hunter archetypes. Big Beast synergies enabled non-linear playstyles. One major constraint, as Blizz themselves noticed, is Hunter's lack of card draw. Lack of card draw intrinsically limits a class' design space. However Blizz developed workarounds such as card generation (Rhok'delar)or costly but powerful tutoring ([Hearthstone Card (Scavenger Ingenuity) Not Found], Ursatron) as opposed to general card draw, or "Recruit" mechanics.
Directions
Blizzard's official post on class identity is weird. It mixes class mechanics with strengths and weaknesses so most of the stuff doesn't make sense. The way I proceeded is completely different. I started by listing what should be the primary and secondary mechanics of the class, the strengths and weaknesses of the class as well as the archetypes available to it should follow from this list.
I say "core sets" a lot, but the Basic and Classic set are NOT interchangeable in their functions.
- The Basic set is the spine of the class. It ensures the class' viability and establishes its primary mechanics.
- Must be simple. Most cards must have 2 lines of text or less. Only simple keywords.
- Versatile to support multiple playstyles
- Minimal kit of everything a class needs to be viable (card draw; removal; direct damage; good standalone minions;...) even if not part of identity
- Fine if slightly more OP than what you would expect from expansions
- The Classic set is the limbs of the class. It ensures the class' internal diversity and estables its secondary mechanics.
- Presents the more "complex" mechanics of the game (Deathrattle, etc...)
- Because Classic packs are bought, there should be a sense of progression
- Unlike the Basic set, Classic cards should be slightly below average to let room for expansions
About tribal synergies, each minion type has its own identity
- Beasts
- All size of minions
- Good standalone value
- Buff each other a lot
- Each type of Beast has its subtheme (Bears=Taunt; Boars=Rush; Cats=Stealth; Wolves=buff other beasts; etc...)
- Most common type of minions, as such their identity is less precise
- Demons (Warlock & DH)
- All size of minions
- Powerful but with a drawback (taking damage; discard; ...)
- Dragons
- Medium to big minions
- "If you're holding a Dragon"
- Hand synergy
- Lots of legendaries
- 4/12 statline as a signature
- Elementals
- All size of minions
- "If you played an Elemental last turn"
- Value generation
- Battlecries
- Mechs
- Mechs were the focus of only 2 expansions (GvG and Boomsday) but they're otherwise a rare tribe and have no central identity!
- Murlocs
- Small minions
- Board-wide buffs for other Murlocs
- Relies on early-game snowballing. If allowed to stay on the board, they become nearly unstoppable
- Pirates
- Small to medium minions
- Weapon synergy
- Lots of direct damage
- Totems (Shaman)
- Small minions
- 0 attack with some exceptions
- Powerful ongoing effects (aura/end of turn/whenever)
Tribal synergies are part of a class primary identity in only 3 cases
- Beasts for Hunter
- Totems for Shaman
- Demons for Walocks and DHs
All other class-tribe associations are mostly a matter of coincidence as these tribes happen to fit in the class identity (eg pirates for Warrior/Rogue)
About which keywords I chose to keep in the core sets
- Charge vs Rush - As you know, Charge is a dangerous keyword. This is why Rush was introduced...however there are a few cards that were meant to be finishers that wouldn't make sense without Rush. I will replace Charge with Rush on all core cards with Charge (and tweak stats accordingly) EXCEPT when Charge is on a legendary minion. There are 4 legendary minions with Charge in the classic set and they will keep Charge
- Al'Akir the Windlord
- Grommash Hellscream
- King Krush
- Leeroy Jenkins (will be nerfed though)
- Discover - Disover offers a choice between cards that are in standard. Due to how easy Discover can become skewed when the right cards are printed, there will be no Discover cards in my core sets.
- Poisonous - There were originally no Poisonous cards in the Basic set before the introduction of [Hearthstone Card (Master Poisoner) Not Found]. I will therefore also have poisonous cards in my basic set
- Lifesteal - There are currently no Lifesteal cards in the core sets. However the keyword is simple and I will therefore introduce some.
I tried not to steer away too much from what Blizzard defined for the class, although there are definitely some directions I disagree with and went against. I will signal it when it is the case.
- PRIMARY MECHANICS
- BEASTS (big and small): All classes have tribal synergies, but only in Hunter is this particular tribal synergy so central.
- SMORC : Face is the place.
- DEATHRATTLES : Through cards that trigger them.
- SECONDARY MECHANICS
- SECRETS - Hunter is a class with Secrets. Unlike Mage secrets (which are defensive) and Paladin secrets (which are situational), Hunter secrets are tempo-focused in nature, and helps you keep the lead on the board.
- SUMMONING SPELLS : Hunter has a lot of them. This is what allows the class to have minionless archetypes.
- TUTORING - Hunter has few "undiscriminated" card draw but has a lot of cards to tutor exactly the cards they need.
- HANDBUFF - Alongside other "Grimy Goon" classes, Hunter has lots of handbuff. Hunter's handbuff tends to be focused on
- PARTIAL REMOVALS - Hunter AOE removals tend to be very partial and position-hased. See Powershot.
- Hunter is GOOD at
- Direct damage : Through spells, charge minions, weapons, and of course Steady Shot. Face is the place.
- Horizontal pressure : Mostly through summoning spells.
- Vertical pressure : Big Beasts and ways to cheat and buff them.
- Hunter is AVERAGE at
- Tempo
- Single-target removals
- Board clears
- Hunter is BAD at
- Card draw : This is what keep the class in check. However, tutor cards (as opposed to generic card draw) is common.
- Multi-target removals : Hunter has a few small and situational board clears ("shots"), but no big one.
- Value generation (barring the anomalous data point that is Deathstalker Rexxar).
The new core sets
COMMONS
RARES
EPICS
LEGENDARY
Justifications
Basic
- Timber Wolf (unchanged)
- Arcane Shot (unchanged)
- Deadly Shot (move to Classic from Basic) - The effect feels like a basic effect. It needs to be here.
- Reload (custom) - Every class needs card draw to be viable. This doesn't mesh well with the "no card draw" identity of Blizzard. However, Reload strikes a compromise between the necessity of card draw and Hunter's class identity. By limiting the number of cards in your hand, Reload is effective without allowing Hunter to hoard cards like some other classes do.
- Animal Companion (artwork changed; effect made more explicit) - The card is functionnaly unchanged, it still always summon Huffer, but a basic card like this needs to give new players and idea of what a "Beast companion" is. (Same reason why I don't like Shaman's HP btw).
- Kill Command (artwork changed) - Like AC, I find this artwork much better. The current one is...weird. Especially since it pictures a bird but the animation clearly shows teeth.
- Multi-Shot (damage increased by 1) - This will hopefully make it more polyvalent. At 4 damage, Multishot can clear a lot more stuff than before without being OP (I think).
- Houndmaster (unchanged)
- Tundra Rhino (cost reduced to 4; gives Rush instead of Charge) - Honestly, it's a miracle that this card has been dodging nerfs and HoFing since the inception of the game given the broken combos it allows and the design space it screws up. In line with my policy of removing Charge from non-legendary cards, Thunda Rhino now only gives your beasts Rush. I also reduced its cost to (4) because it loses combo potential
- Cobra Shot (from GVG 2014; cost reduced to 4) - The original 5-mana Cobra Shot was printed at a time when HS games were very linera and Face Hunter tyrannized the meta. Devs probably thought it wasn't a good idea to give FH further face damage hence the 5-mana cost. Today, however, the game is much more "non-linear" and FH has been matched in degeneracy by another kind of Hunter (that hunts Demons). It can now cost 4 and be balanced. Also put into the basic set because it's a basic effet.
Classic
- Webspinner (from NAXX OUT 2014) - I strongly hesitated to put this into the Classic set due to how obiquitous it was back in the day. I still put it back because the effect really feels very "core" and the Hunter class has more internal diversity than it had in 2014 so it might not be as ubiquitous nowadays.
- Explosive Trap (unchanged)
- Pressure Plate (from SOO 2019) - So that Hunter has Secret to counter spell-centric decks.
- Snipe (unchanged)
- Scavenging Hyena (nerfed to +1/+1) - Hyena's snowball potential is waaay too good for this effect to remain core. It has been in every aggro/midrange archetypes of Hunter since the game's inception.
- Unleash the Hounds (nerfed from Charge to Rush) - Follows my policy of cutting Charge of all non-legendary core cards.
- [Hearthstone Card (Venomous Trap) Not Found] (from KFT 2017) - Replaces other secrets I feel weren't basic enough or too weird.
- Eaglehorn Bow (stats swapped, art changed, "after" for more clarity) - At 3 attack for 3 mana, this weapon is way too good. It's also a powercreep to Fiery War Axe. At 2/3, it is still playable and of acceptable power level. Again art changed as well.
- Terrorscale Stalker (from UNG 2017) - Deathrattles, and in particular DR triggers, have been establised as a Hunter archetype. Terrorscale is less risky than either Play Dead or Feign Death because of its high mana cost.
- Infested Wolf (from WOTOG 2016) - Replaces Savannah Highmane. A decent, simple, and balanced Deathrattle Beast.
- Bursting Shot (custom) - Replaces Explosive Shot which sucks. I wanted to give Hunter some form of board control for late-game oriented decks, while keeping the flavor of Shots only touching certain minions.
- Snake Trap (unchanged)
- Abominable Bowman (from KFT 2017) - Although the card has never seen competitive play, it is a very good building brick for cool but non-degenerate Big Beast decks
- Call of the Wild (from WOTOG 2016; re-nerfed to 9 mana) - Honestly CotW is such an obvious and basic effect that it can't possibly NOT be in the core set. CotW originally costed 8. It was nerfed to 9 mana because HS games were fair back in the day. They they rebuffed it to 8 mana because powercreep. However, Classic cards needs to be fair, which is why I'm reversing the cost AGAIN.
- King Krush (unchanged)
Hall of Fame
- Tracking - Waaay too complicated for a basic card. Also goes against the rule of "no Discover in the core sets" (though it's not strictly a Discover).
- Starving Buzzard - Unplayable since it was nerfed, unbalanceable effect because remember: Hunter card draw bad.
- Hunter's Mark - This is a Paladin effect, not a Hunter effect.
- Misdirection - Too random and situtational to be core.
- Freezing Trap - The effect (1) is too OP (2) is weird for a card with "freezing" in its name (3) doesn't fit hunter (4) is frustrating when it affects a 9+cost minion.
- Flare - Tech cards should be neutral.
- Savannah Highmane - Broken. Replaced by Infested Wolf.
- Explosive Shot - Straight up bad. Replaced by Volley.
- Bestial Wrath - Sucks + doesn't bring anything to the class.
- [Hearthstone Card (Gladiator Longbow) Not Found] - Sucks + doesn't bring anything to the class.
Shortlisted cards
The following cards almost made it into my core sets, but didn't because there were no room left for them.
- Hunter's Pack (from SOU 2019) - A flavorful and effective way to reload your hand. Scrapped for card draw instead.
- Scarlet Webweaver (from SOU 2019) - Interesting for Big Hunter archetypes, but ultimately too dangerous.
- Goblin Prank (from TBP 2018) - Interesting effect for Hunter, but it doesn't really fit the class.
- Dire Frenzy (from Witchwood 2019) - Late-game potential for Hunter, would be too annoying in a core set. More than 10 Huffers per game is not healthy.
- Piranha Launcher (from MSG 2016) - Nice effect, but I didn't have room for more weapons.
- Powershot (from TGT 2015) - Almost replaced [Hearthstone Card (Multishot) Not Found] but it just felt too weak.
- Quick Shot (from BRM 2015) - Too OP. Cobra Shot is more interesting and flavorful.
Leave a Comment
You must be signed in to leave a comment. Sign in here.
HUNTER CORE SET REVAMP
Introduction
Neoguli's post kickstarted me to finish my own
After Priest and Shaman, it is Hunter's turn to have its core sets revised. I have all classes ready. However, neoguli already dealt with Warlock, Druid, Rogue, Warrior, and Paladin. For the moment, I will focus on classes that weren't modified yet.
In terms of core set quality, Hunter is above average, although its sets aren't as good as Mage's or Rogue's. The main issue with Hunter's current set is its one-dimensionality. Up to 2017, Hunter was a one-dimensional class with an extremely linear gameplay. It had only one viable archetype (at best), oscillating between face and midrange.
After 2017, internal diversity increased: Egg, Cube, No-minion, Big, etc... Deathstalker Rexxar enabled late-game-oriented Hunter archetypes. Big Beast synergies enabled non-linear playstyles. One major constraint, as Blizz themselves noticed, is Hunter's lack of card draw. Lack of card draw intrinsically limits a class' design space. However Blizz developed workarounds such as card generation (Rhok'delar)or costly but powerful tutoring ([Hearthstone Card (Scavenger Ingenuity) Not Found], Ursatron) as opposed to general card draw, or "Recruit" mechanics.
Directions
Blizzard's official post on class identity is weird. It mixes class mechanics with strengths and weaknesses so most of the stuff doesn't make sense. The way I proceeded is completely different. I started by listing what should be the primary and secondary mechanics of the class, the strengths and weaknesses of the class as well as the archetypes available to it should follow from this list.
I say "core sets" a lot, but the Basic and Classic set are NOT interchangeable in their functions.
About tribal synergies, each minion type has its own identity
Tribal synergies are part of a class primary identity in only 3 cases
All other class-tribe associations are mostly a matter of coincidence as these tribes happen to fit in the class identity (eg pirates for Warrior/Rogue)
About which keywords I chose to keep in the core sets
I tried not to steer away too much from what Blizzard defined for the class, although there are definitely some directions I disagree with and went against. I will signal it when it is the case.
The new core sets
COMMONS
RARES
EPICS
LEGENDARY
Justifications
Basic
Classic
Hall of Fame
Shortlisted cards
The following cards almost made it into my core sets, but didn't because there were no room left for them.
Some changes are fair, the artwork change was unexpected but very welcome (Kill command in particular), but there are certain changes which I think really unjustified;
- Removing freezing trap is kinda harsh, especially since its not particularly hard to play around, and is perhaps the only defensive secret in classic. If this must go then something like wandering monster must replace it.
- What could removing charge from unleashed the hounds and tundra rhino actually serve, especially since the only buff provided as compensation is a mere 1 mana down to rhino (which wouldn't matter since you've more or less just destroyed any viability of this card). Hunter has little to no card draw and can barely generate cards, so they can't usually match up to any class in the mid-to-late game and this change simply makes it worse by ensuring that matches must end by turn 6 since theres little else they can do after that.
- removing highmane for being broken, and tracking for being 'complicated'. I don't particularly recall either as such.
- Your custom card, reload, is interesting. Its not really easy to draw more than 1 card but then again hunter isn't really good at that anyway.
Considering all the changes you've made, all I can see is a much, much watered down hunter that isn't exactly good at doing anything. This is deliberate, as you would say, since classic cards are supposed to be below average, but this is beyond just a little below average. Seems like you designed this with all the expansion cards in mind rather than the other way around, since nearly all hunter's aggressive cards have been neutered to a frankly insane degree. In my opinion, classic cards should be the core where all else is built, but if I was building some sort of midrange beast hunter right now in wild or standard, none of those cards which youve changed will be in it.
I did not expect to start a feud for revamping core sets, but here we go. I'm glad my commitment is inspiring to push these ideas forward. That said, time to comment on your vision.
"Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me
"If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me
I didn't mean it as a feud. I put my own revamp on hold for a while and seeing you posting yours incited me to finish mine. For the last ones I have left, I will do a unique thread for both of my core sets including the neutrals, instead of doing one per class. Will answer suggestions later.
hahahaha I just can't get over the artwork of Rexxar with a tommy gun, that's too funny
As promised, I'm back.
Will modify it.
I just wanted to have a conversation about TR and highmane, the only two things I have problems with in your attempted revamp.
- Tundra Rhino has a very strong and potentially* problematic effect, by giving beasts the keyword charge. There isn't any argument that charge is a problem effect, and has in the past proven to be extremely powerful. But if we look into hearthstone's past we discover that nearly every time its a problem, its usually in rogue. Little wonder there since rogue (until dhunters came along) was the only class that can easily get rid of taunts and does not suffer from card draw.
Now let's review the only other time I remember TR being a core card in hunterstone - the emergence of Master's Call. During that time, hunters can deal up to around 19 damage on 10, with double Timber Wolf, and a small set of Springpaws. A simple taunt will scupper that combo, and hunters never relied on that combo to begin with. TR is a one-off in that deck, and that's because like most hunter decks, early game tempo is the key. TR gives an out in control matches, but hunter's atrocious mid-late game makes it nearly impossible to ever take full advantage of TR, hence why its only a one-off.
Fact of the matter is that hunters have never been able to take full advantage of TR simply because the class's identity makes it impossible. Combo hunter has never really been a thing (though that has never stopped me from trying), and your proposed revamp does not change that. Currently in standard, there's every reason to believe that some kind of TR combo hunter can work ([Hearthstone Card (scarlett webweaver) Not Found], Ramkahen Wildtamer, etc.), and still its just not happening.
So how can we 'fix' this card, if at all. Your changes, while admirable, only makes it a worst off (and I do mean really badly compared to) Houndmaster Shaw. If we are getting rid of charge, then TR should cost somewhere around 3 mana, maybe as a 2/4. There's just no imaginable use for TR that only gives beast rush, whilst also costing too much and being poorly stated at that.
---
- Highmane has not been a core card for a long time, if ever. We have to turn the clock to hearthstone's beginning to even contemplate this statement. The common wisdom you cited is different from what I remember. It used to be said that if highmane ever hit your face once, then you just lost the game. That still checks out. But there's a reason why its said that way - because highmane can almost never survive to hit face in the first place. There's a whole list of stuff from hunter I can remember being broken back then (unleash the hounds, undertaker, 1 mana flare, 2 mana starving buzzard), hell even houndmaster had its time under the sun, but highmane has never stuck to my memory of ever being one of them.
I like your addition of infested wolf, but in this case I will still vote for highmane to stay in standard, if only because its interesting deck building with your addition of abominable bowman.
To add something else, my Hunter set has also been balanced with my new Neutral set in mind, which is almost done, and which contains a lot of midrange beasts / beast synergy that may not be Highmane-tier in power level but aren’t trivial. In particular, it will contain Pack Leader from battlegrounds (at 3 mana). This has implications for Hunter