New Targon Landmark - Star Spring

This is crazy in a Crimson or Tahm Kench deck! I wonder if there will be a deck just trying to activate the win condition or if this’ll end up just being a tool for self-harm decks. This also makes the 6 Mana 3/8 from Bilgewater a lot better.

The first landmark card that got me hyped, we need more alternate win conditions.

Now this is... a design i didn't want to see at all and should not exist in this form in LoR.

For 2 mana this card's heal would proably be enought without the wincondition part but since it has it...

You now have heal (which can also be regeneration) what is originally meant as a countermeasure for removal as your gameplan what will proably  very frustrating to face, especially for control and i wonder how such a design with such a high powerlevel gets greenlit.

If you can't remove landmarks in your deck, this card will charge up over 3-4 rounds of using a selfdamaging boardwipes and lose you the game, as a 2 mana landmark...

I wonder: what were they thinking?!

The fact that this comes out on 2 is nuts, and the Targon healing package is super scary now.

I'm not sure aggro can survive a meta where this exists. Can they afford to run Landmark destruction? Probably not, in most cases.

Don't forget about things like Monkey Idol, Broadbacked Protector, every Crimson unit, and Ember Maiden!

the cost makes it a tad bit to strong if it was 3 or 4 i would've been more okay but now hmmm.

It's nice for self damage decks tho, kind of negating vlad's effect if your minions survive till round end.

(the problem with his effect is them surviving during battle not the end usually)

Important to remember that the card says ''once i've seen you'' which means if it gets to 19 and you remove it the next one they drop has to start all over.

Like all alt win conditions, this card is going to get a lot of attention regardless of how viable it is.

I share many of the concerns that it's too powerful / affordable / easy to activate, but given how well Riot has predicted numbers lately (everyone thought Taric would be impossible to flip at 7 triggers, but he's actually surprisingly easy) combined with the super-specific number "22" makes me think they've done a lot of playtesting/finetuning around this already.

there are a lot of cards that already actually say "win the game" just not explicit.

like for example Shudderwock if you played those 5 battlecries this game, win the game.

I mean sure it says "win the game" but an example in runettera can also be Aurelion sol level up.. which does basically the same.

alternate win conditions are interesting and this has further counterplay apart from removing this card itself.. to heal units you need units if you can control the board and kill units the player of this card can't heal.. another counterplay is the landmark removal which invalidates your deck if you rely too much on this win con.. also you ind of need to draw it early..

sure you can probably go late game with a burst heal of sort but combo decks.. are combo decks they exist in card games and it's fine.

I wonder if it fair to compare Aurelion Sol who is a 10 mana unit with Star Spring which is 2 mana and has narrow removal.

I mean in case it is quite easy to "level" star spring it is way more powerful/ opressive as a 2 mana card than a 10 unit isn't it?

Also is a comparison with Shudderwock odd since he is 1 out of 30 cards and 9 mana while Star Spring is 3 out of 40 cards and has tutors in the same region. 

I never said combo/alternate winconditions are bad for a game but they need to be balanced and i doubt that 2 mana Star Spring is balanced 

I like alternative win conditions, and that one seems cool.

@TheTriferianGeneral

By that logic Fiora is unbalanced as a 3 Mana win condition and Maokai is unbalanced at 4 Mana. What balances this card and other low cost win conditions is that they take a long time to win. Realistically, restoring 22 Health to allies (which doesn't include the Nexus) will not be achievable in just a few turns. . The mana spent to actually complete this requirement is far higher than 2 mana, whether that be through including subpar cards or playing differently. And if it does get removed, then "level-up" requirement resets, so any deck that has Landmark removal can just wait for the opponent to invest in leveling a Star Spring and then remove it before the round ends. It's even entirely possible that playing for a huge Star Shepherd with Overwhelm or a Leveled Tahm Kench is a more reliable way to win with this card than achieving its requirement. If this card ends up being OP it will likely be because it can be played as an enabler for self-damage cards against more aggressive matchups and used as a win condition against control. Also, having two of these out at the same time would be very scary. 

I think this card is strong and I barely care about the win condition.

2 mana for a continousAoE heal at the end of each round. And you can win off it? That seems crazy good. I think Targon is gonna be a very annoying region. 

Quote From TheTriferianGeneral

I wonder if it fair to compare Aurelion Sol who is a 10 mana unit with Star Spring which is 2 mana and has narrow removal.

I mean in case it is quite easy to "level" star spring it is way more powerful/ opressive as a 2 mana card than a 10 unit isn't it?

Also is a comparison with Shudderwock odd since he is 1 out of 30 cards and 9 mana while Star Spring is 3 out of 40 cards and has tutors in the same region. 

I never said combo/alternate winconditions are bad for a game but they need to be balanced and i doubt that 2 mana Star Spring is balanced 

I compared the "win the game" keyword to other "win the game cards if they have their conditions fullfilled they win the game.. on this card's case the condition is in front of your eyes in A sol and shudderwock the condition is to have slight board control and have played those specific 4 battlecries respectably.

I don't think healling for 22 dmg is easy, it's not.. you are wasting 2 mana for this card it's effect is kind of minor unless it wins the game, it's an engine that puts a clock as well.

shudderwock combo deck had ton of draw to draw the card most of the time.. draw is more scarce in Runeterra, there's a tutor for it but it costs 3 mana an then you are paying 5 mana total for this land mark..

My point is to not panic when you see "win the game" other cards also have that text but not explicit.. for example Ezreal level up on the right deck or TF level up most of the time as well.

Quote From DoubleSummon

My point is to not panic when you see "win the game" other cards also have that text but not explicit...

Something saying "Win the game if X condition is fufilled" is always a cause for some alarm.  While other cards/champions may not have something EXPLICITY (since you seem to love that word I bolded it for you) written on them that wins the game, yes they may win the game none-the-less.

In your examples you listed ASol, Ezreal, Shudderwock.

One is from a different game that has very little counterplay available to it, so while I understand your premise, the games are far enough apparent in the way that they play that I feel like comparing the cards does very little for any actual discussion.....moving on to the other two.

Asol, while his level up ability is EXTREMELY powerful, can still be played around or beaten.  Ezreal, while his level up ability may enable some OTK combos, it does require the opponent to have the right cards in hand.  Many cards MAY implicity equate to winning the game, but don't actually tell the game engine: "Ok this game is over, cause this player fufilled X condition".   You can still play around things like Ez, Asol, Riptide Rex, etc.  And in fact, there's MANY ways to do this against all of those.

Against riptide rex you can go wide, or you can use direct healing to put yourself out of lethal range.  There's actually a lot that can be used to counter him.  Same goes for ez, asol, and other units.  In fact I'd argue that Fiora, who has a similar mechanic as Star Spring, is a good comparison because as a regular champion unit, many different things can interact with her.  Single combat, spells, etc.

The problem with star spring is that because landmark removal is most likely going to be at a premium, it's going to force the Targon region even more than before.  As if having Bastion (effectively a 3 cost deny for single target removal) wasn't strong enough, now they'll have a value generator (passive heal every round) and an alternate win condition. 

Hell.  Decks that won't even run healing spells will probably run that landmark just because of the value it can generate over the course of a game and the small chance of an alternate win condition.  The only thing a landmark like that will do is either A) create a targon based meta, or B) create a hyper aggro meta.

Quote From Sykomyke

Quote From DoubleSummon

My point is to not panic when you see "win the game" other cards also have that text but not explicit...

 

Something saying "Win the game if X condition is fufilled" is always a cause for some alarm.  While other cards/champions may not have something EXPLICITY (since you seem to love that word I bolded it for you) written on them that wins the game, yes they may win the game none-the-less.

In your examples you listed ASol, Ezreal, Shudderwock.

One is from a different game that has very little counterplay available to it, so while I understand your premise, the games are far enough apparent in the way that they play that I feel like comparing the cards does very little for any actual discussion.....moving on to the other two.

Asol, while his level up ability is EXTREMELY powerful, can still be played around or beaten.  Ezreal, while his level up ability may enable some OTK combos, it does require the opponent to have the right cards in hand.  Many cards MAY implicity equate to winning the game, but don't actually tell the game engine: "Ok this game is over, cause this player fufilled X condition".   You can still play around things like Ez, Asol, Riptide Rex, etc.  And in fact, there's MANY ways to do this against all of those.

Against riptide rex you can go wide, or you can use direct healing to put yourself out of lethal range.  There's actually a lot that can be used to counter him.  Same goes for ez, asol, and other units.  In fact I'd argue that Fiora, who has a similar mechanic as Star Spring, is a good comparison because as a regular champion unit, many different things can interact with her.  Single combat, spells, etc.

The problem with star spring is that because landmark removal is most likely going to be at a premium, it's going to force the Targon region even more than before.  As if having Bastion (effectively a 3 cost deny for single target removal) wasn't strong enough, now they'll have a value generator (passive heal every round) and an alternate win condition. 

Hell.  Decks that won't even run healing spells will probably run that landmark just because of the value it can generate over the course of a game and the small chance of an alternate win condition.  The only thing a landmark like that will do is either A) create a targon based meta, or B) create a hyper aggro meta.

B) is not a thing since Star Spring will proably end up as a card in Regeneration Decks that use dmg based boardwipes like Avalanche and Ember Maiden to progress the quest faster.

If anything can beat that deck it is a very strong midrange deck that is resilient enough against boardwipes while also agressive enough to punish the rather weak midgame of this deck or decks focussing on landmark removal. For now all of that is just speculation i know but i still have a very bad feeling about this card...

Healing 22 dmg is a lot..  It's 1 needs to be dealt and 2 needs to be healed.. I know it's a hard concept.. But you know braum level up.. Is not that easy and the healing aspect is made trivial. 

Besides they said they would add landmark removal to other cards,  nobody said it's Taragon locked mechanic.

I meant I win the game if I have ezreal lvl 2 and the otk in hand not just that single card.. 

This card also has a condition.. And it's much harder than it looks.

Sorry for using words you don't usually see I will use simpler words so you can understand them :). 

Quote From DoubleSummon

Healing 22 dmg is a lot..  It's 1 needs to be dealt and 2 needs to be healed.. I know it's a hard concept.. But you know braum level up.. Is not that easy and the healing aspect is made trivial. 

Besides they said they would add landmark removal to other cards,  nobody said it's Taragon locked mechanic.

I meant I win the game if I have ezreal lvl 2 and the otk in hand not just that single card.. 

This card also has a condition.. And it's much harder than it looks.

Sorry for using words you don't usually see I will use simpler words so you can understand them :). 

Did you really have to get overbearing like this? 

In the end neihgther you or we can be proven right here unless we see cards in action.

As long as nobody is proven right you should not sneeze at people like you did in your last paragraph

Just saying...

Quote From TheTriferianGeneral

Quote From DoubleSummon

Healing 22 dmg is a lot..  It's 1 needs to be dealt and 2 needs to be healed.. I know it's a hard concept.. But you know braum level up.. Is not that easy and the healing aspect is made trivial. 

Besides they said they would add landmark removal to other cards,  nobody said it's Taragon locked mechanic.

I meant I win the game if I have ezreal lvl 2 and the otk in hand not just that single card.. 

This card also has a condition.. And it's much harder than it looks.

Sorry for using words you don't usually see I will use simpler words so you can understand them :). 

Did you really have to get overbearing like this? 

In the end neihgther you or we can be proven right here unless we see cards in action.

As long as nobody is proven right you should not sneeze at people like you did in your last paragraph

Just saying...

Well, he started, I am against personal attacks, but he didn't have to ridicule my use of some words I don't even use myself.. what's even the point to do that?

22 healing is such an odd number(although being actually an even number) it's noticeable it's been fine tuned around play testing it's quite high number as well, I feel like the win condition was just thrown there for it to not feel useless late game +1 hp regen on all units is strong early but useless late the win condition on the card makes it relevant all game and it's actually as I see it not a huge factor of the card rather having the triggers for healing units for Soraka, healing units like Tahm Kench or crimson units.

Quote From DoubleSummon

Well, he started, I am against personal attacks, but he didn't have to ridicule my use of some words I don't even use myself.. what's even the point to do that?

1. Ctrl F 
2. Find Explicit
3. 2 Results above my first post.  Both from DoubleSummon.

I was poking fun at the point you were making that your entire "card defense" hinged on win the game conditions being "explicit" in the card description or not.  And I was poking holes in that defense by rebutting with evidence and experience.

You're welcome to disagree, or even hold your ground (props to you for sticking to your guns even when facing adversity, regardless if you are correct or not).  

However, what I said was so far removed from "personal attacks" it's not even funny.  I think you probably need to go google ad hominem and come back.  A personal attack would be "DoubleSummon, you're dumb and you don't know what your talking about. You're just a scrub who is new. git gud"

That, in theory would be a personal attack.

I said that you loved to use the word explicit, so I bolded it for you.  That is a jab at your logical defense.  Not a personal attack.  Learn the difference.  On the flip side, saying that you are "sorry for using words that I don't understand" is using an assumed passive aggressive statement that implies that I'm too dumb to understand what the word explicit means.

My jab = You love this word so I'm poking fun at you for using it as your card defense lynchpin.

Your comment = You're too dumb to understand this word.  

If anything, your attack is an implied ad hominem.  Mine is not.  

Quote From Sykomyke

Quote From DoubleSummon

Well, he started, I am against personal attacks, but he didn't have to ridicule my use of some words I don't even use myself.. what's even the point to do that?

1. Ctrl F 
2. Find Explicit
3. 2 Results above my first post.  Both from DoubleSummon.

I was poking fun at the point you were making that your entire "card defense" hinged on win the game conditions being "explicit" in the card description or not.  And I was poking holes in that defense by rebutting with evidence and experience.

You're welcome to disagree, or even hold your ground (props to you for sticking to your guns even when facing adversity, regardless if you are correct or not).  

However, what I said was so far removed from "personal attacks" it's not even funny.  I think you probably need to go google ad hominem and come back.  A personal attack would be "DoubleSummon, you're dumb and you don't know what your talking about. You're just a scrub who is new. git gud"

That, in theory would be a personal attack.

I said that you loved to use the word explicit, so I bolded it for you.  That is a jab at your logical defense.  Not a personal attack.  Learn the difference.  On the flip side, saying that you are "sorry for using words that I don't understand" is using an assumed passive aggressive statement that implies that I'm too dumb to understand what the word explicit means.

My jab = You love this word so I'm poking fun at you for using it as your card defense lynchpin.

Your comment = You're too dumb to understand this word.  

If anything, your attack is an implied ad hominem.  Mine is not.  

I would suggest to not use a card discussion as a place to beef eachother.

I agree that DS got a little off with his argumentation but nonetheless it has nothing to do with Star Spring.

We eighter should get back to the card discussion or shut the conversation I think :/

I am sorry for being chieldish, there's no reason to make this forum hpwn 2.0. 

Anyway I will stand on my point this card will not be oppressive, 22 hp restore takes a lot of time to do, you need to draw this early for this to be relevant.

And we are yet to see a burst way of completing this task in one go (like fiora + judgment for example).

I will calculate how long it takes in the best case scenario once we see all cards.