The Watcher ( More powerful than the champion )

I feel bad for Maokai  players.

I think the watcher needs an adjustment. If it had the same effect as Maokai  it would be ok. As it stands though it’s win condition is just unmatched IMO. 

What is everyone else thinking?

The Watcher itself is not really the issue, balance wise yes mowkai has been powercreeped into oblivion but mill was never a top tier deck. The problem with the Watcher in my opinion stems from cards that let you cheat out units (spektral maiden, intimidating roar). Watcher should not be able to attack until the cost reduction is fullfiled, freljord is already good at stalling and ramping. The condition was a way to play around Watcher, losing turn 7 to double ice pillar spectral maiden into watcher is just stupid.

One of the win conditions of Deep was using Maokai to mill your opponents deck and that was a top tier deck during the Bilgewater expansion.

Other than that I agree with you, Ice Pillar, Spectral Matron and the Watchers, form one of the most uninteractive combo in the game.

Seriously are you gonna balance this fucking card or not because it’s straight up bullshit. Even with the hand to negate this shit you can’t beat it. Player levels of up  Lis. Is handed the watcher. No problem I got a fix for it. He drops it I immediately hush it. And then drop a  Mindsplitter to make sure it won’t get to attack again. That should be the prefect damn block and I’m lucky I had those exact cards in my hand to counter this overpowered bullshit. Crisis averted or so I thought. He copies the watcher at burst speedand drops him for zero cost. And then attacks with him.

This card simply needs nerfs I don’t know why anyone plays anything else it just inferior to this deck. 

possible work arounds.

Make them draw the card.

Change Lis so she has to see two 8 cost cards played. Leveling a champion who is excessively easy to level to give you the win condition is bullshit. No other champs are this good. Zoe if she levels she can give you the game if you have the right cards. But she has to survive. If Lis was I’ve seen you play two 8 cost cards this would be fine. I’d be almost ok with the user getting basically unblockable finisher because this is a little harder to do  not really that hard but at least better than the easy bullshit we got now.

Change the watcher to reduce its cost  by 2 for every +8 cost card they play so it isn’t as easy to drop two of them in a single turn. Maybe make it 3 per +3 cost making it cost less is just impossible to stop.

Allow people to attempt to counter it. If it’s effect was the same as Maokia at least it would make dealing with this card feasible.

See; Nocturne vs Baccai Sandspinner

Still can’t believe how Fucken Cheap this is. He clones ephemeral copy so I fight with a challenger. Then he drops it on his next turn and I get a mindsplitter block. Then he gets my mind splitter. Attacks I bust a messenger’s sigil to keep the game going for a bit. But the damn thing just has crazy fucking stats. 

Seriously is this not some bullshit.

Lis is just hands down the best champ in the game. She comes with an autofinisher. This needs adjustment

Lis without watcher would be a good champion. The watcher doesn't need to exist and it shouldn't. It's way too easy to get the watcher out and the deck is already good without it.

After playing with and against Lissandra/Trundle in both ladder and gauntlet. I came to change my opinion on the deck. Long story short I still think it's top tier but I wouldn't say that it's overpowered, cheap or anything like that. Allow me to elaborate:

-The deck has a favorable match up against aggro but also has bad match up in the form of Deep, Renekton/Sejuani and Lee Sin/Zoe.

-Realistically speaking you can only pull The Matron into watcher combo late game (Turn 9 and beyond), while it is possible to pull the combo as soon as turn 8 that require you to have a Glimpse Beyond in hand to clear some space since in your field your already have a Lissandra, Frozen Thrall, Trundle and two ice pillars, this is unlikely to happen since in order to pull the combo you need all the above + Fading Memories and Spectral Matron. and don't give the whole with ramp you can get as soon as turn 7, the best versions of the deck don't use ramp cards and does that do are not even tier 3 decks.

- That being said i do think that Lissandra does need a nerf, she already generate a frozen thrall and in her level 2, make your nexus tough and give an alternate win condition. Why does she also give a AOE spell each turn for free?

Quote From minuano28

Why does she also give a AOE spell each turn for free?

Because thats what she does in the moba

Quote From Hellcopter

Quote From minuano28

Why does she also give a AOE spell each turn for free?

Because thats what she does in the moba

Soraka has a silence ability in league should we give her the ability to generate a 0 mana hush or equinox every turn in runeterra?

As someone who's tried Lissandra out in a few different ways, I'd caution anyone against forming opinions from that one specific deck. It's actually extremely difficult to summon a Watcher without Ice Pillar or Matron shenanigans.

I agree with OldManSanns, it's actually kind of sad because Lissandra can't really pair with any champion other than Trundle because the synergy is just so much better than anything else. SI also lets the deck copy the Watcher tons of times, which is when it starts to feel unfair.

Does Lis need to be married to Trundle like Nat to Maokai? Because if nothing is changed that is what it will be which I guess is fine. Still Shadow has the ability to draw so many cards you will get what you need. Then again I’m playing a stall deck but I can push Maokai and Sol well enough to crush them. But Ramp with the draw, with being handed the win condition just seems like overkill. 

So I’ll do what I did when Hush was even more bullshit than it is now. Play it help boast the win rate up gotta get that thing to 55% before they will even consider a nerf

I had an Interesting fight with a Lissandra/Trundle deck  a couple days ago. I was using a dragon centric, Shivana/Sol deck. I found it to be interesting fight. I managed to pull in a win, and she was unable to pull in her watcher. I think The Watcher is a strong card, but it can be countered by cards like Detain, and  the Obliterate ability.

Even with hard CC it being zero cost and the amount of copies from shadow isle has you will run out of cards before they do ifit had a cost it wouldn’t be unfair. If it just did Maokai effect then I think it would be fair but it’s the best finisher in the game and it’s easier than the others to get too.

Aggro can't beat Lissandra/trundle unless the Lissandra player got really unlucky with his draws, as for it being the best finisher in the game I disagree, Lee Sin and Nasus are just as good if not better. Finally it make sense that the watcher effect is stronger than Maokai since it's more difficult to execute.

I don’t see Lee Sin / Nasus in gold 4 or 3 I’ll start checking gold 2 today. Maokai seems more difficult. I Seldom see Maokai go off and when he does manage to go off I finish that player like 50% of the time before it matters.

I did have a watcher player not manage to get their shit to go off today which is like the first time I’ve accomplished that. But I think they got extremely unlucky. In like the last 10 watcher games I’ve played every single one of them were able to summon the watcher and I silenced / obliterated, or stunned the damn thing only to have it copied or buying me simply one more turn. They can even be forced to block with it and with its insane hp just attack the turn after if they get hushe or permanently silenced.

Quote From minuano28

Quote From Hellcopter

Quote From minuano28

Why does she also give a AOE spell each turn for free?

Because thats what she does in the moba

Soraka has a silence ability in league should we give her the ability to generate a 0 mana hush or equinox every turn in runeterra?

No
But funny enough, even with a strong effect like that, she still would not see competitive play by herself

That is true sadly.