Aggro Hunter cards.

I can't seem to find decent stats on HSReplay, so I'll ask here.

Aggro Hunter is a decent budget deck, but I have some questions about some inclusions.

Many versions run Spellzerker, and maybe I'm using this card wrong, but it seems pretty pointless to me. Wouldn't Knife Juggler be a better card? It has synergy with the Leper Gnomes from the sidequest, Unleash the Hounds and Snake Trap.

Is Wolfrider ever worth it over Animal Companion? Sure overall the later is better, but it's a 1 in 3 to get the one you want (on average). And SMOrc'ing for 3 seems more consistent, albeit sometimes weaker.

Timber Wolf seems a bit weak to run 2 copies off. It's fine with Unleash and to activate Kill Command but pretty weak without that. Could Secretkeeper be a viable option, and running 6 secrets (2x Explosive Trap, 2x Snake Trap, 2x Freezing Trap)? This could even make Sunreaver Spy viable for the 2-mana spot.

Why do some people run Bomb Toss? You can't activate the bombs, unless the opponents uses and Aoe.

I assume versions of the deck running Spellzerker are also running cards like rapid fire, arcane shot, maybe Cobalt Spellkin to deal a whole bunch of extra burn damage in one turn with a single spellzerker. Whether that's better than just leaning in on the beast/swarm synergies seems questionable to me, I'd be more inclined toward the juggler as well.

I can see the argument for wolfrider over animal comp but I value the companion higher. Later on rolling a Leokk often isn't even a detriment with all the leper gnomes and such.

There's a difference between even a full face hunter deck, and a mindless SMOrc deck. A lot of the people on ladder play the deck like the latter, certainly, but the only reason to build towards that path is if you simply don't have the cards to build a stronger list.

- Spellzerker is for Rapid Fire first and foremost, as AliRadicali suggests above. It also has a little more relevance in the later stages of the game because these hunter decks expect to lose the board at some point - and any juggles hitting minions are worthless to you at that point (and arguably even earlier given your game-plan).

- Animal Companion wins out over Wolfrider because while the deck expects to lose the board at some point, there's no reason to just throw away all board pressure on turn 3 without really being pushed to do so. Note that with Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Stalker in these decks you have strong early-game board potential, and remember that controlling the board adds up to more damage over time than just throwing everything at face from turn 1.

- I may be wrong (I haven't spent a lot of time on Hunter stats lately), but my assumption is that Timber Wolf is a two-of because Unleash is often your win condition. You want to be able to reliably burst out after losing board. Specifically in that circumstance, it's doubling your Unleash damage for only 1 additional mana outlay. There may be other benefits I'm not seeing because I don't have the deck in front of me right now.

- EDIT: Didn't see the Bomb Toss question. My answer is I have no idea, other than maybe an alternate late-game plan trying to set up a big Spellzerker turn. It's absolutely not something I'd run, personally, unless I was teching against Mage specifically.

- It's important to recognise that this deck is not a mindless SMOrc deck - and in fact, such decks don't really exist outside of budget ladder-grind decks. Your early game should absolutely be about early board, and getting out Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Hunter. Midgame is about minimizing what you have to let through on board while pushing more damage. Late game - which for this deck means around turn 7 or 8 - is where you accept the board is lost and make a push to set up lethal. Accept the loss of board to activate a big Wolf-Unleash and push through everything you can.
Knowing when to trade and when to push is a fundamental skill of any aggro deck, and in spite of what memes will tell you, 'always face' is not an acceptable answer.

As someone who dabbled in Face Hunter for a bit, I will try my best to answer your queries.

Face Hunter is not powerful enough to hold the board for long, so things like Knife Juggler and Secretkeeper do not help us here. We are a Face deck, not a Tempo deck, we do not care about the board much, we just want to pressure our opponent's life. We also do not run that many secrets, so the minions are also quite inconsistent to activate.

To reiterate what other people have said already, Spellzerker helps to give us some much needed burst later on, most likely with Quick Shot and Arcane Shots. Its a cheap and reliable way to deal upwards of 9 damage to your opponent out of nowhere and most importantly, over taunts.

Timber Wolf is a useful card for the reasons already stated as well. It can help to double your Unleash damage out of nowhere and to also act as a Kill Command activator, it is most certainly more useful than a Secretkeeper.

Animal Companion is just so much better than Wolfrider. There are those rare circumstances when the Hail Mary Huffer does not come through, but we always win more any other time, such as when you need a turn 3 play, or a Leokk buff to win very rarely. They are also beasts. As such, Animal Companion helps to win more games overall. 

Finally, the Goblin Bombs are just weird. Maybe they are teching more heavily into the Spellzerker idea, or are experimenting as well.

I'm assuming you might be on a budget here, but if you have the cards already, you can always try experimenting with them a bit yourself and see what works for you.

Quote From Bystekhilcar

There's a difference between even a full face hunter deck, and a mindless SMOrc deck. A lot of the people on ladder play the deck like the latter, certainly, but the only reason to build towards that path is if you simply don't have the cards to build a stronger list.

- Spellzerker is for Rapid Fire first and foremost, as AliRadicali suggests above. It also has a little more relevance in the later stages of the game because these hunter decks expect to lose the board at some point - and any juggles hitting minions are worthless to you at that point (and arguably even earlier given your game-plan).

- Animal Companion wins out over Wolfrider because while the deck expects to lose the board at some point, there's no reason to just throw away all board pressure on turn 3 without really being pushed to do so. Note that with Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Stalker in these decks you have strong early-game board potential, and remember that controlling the board adds up to more damage over time than just throwing everything at face from turn 1.

- I may be wrong (I haven't spent a lot of time on Hunter stats lately), but my assumption is that Timber Wolf is a two-of because Unleash is often your win condition. You want to be able to reliably burst out after losing board. Specifically in that circumstance, it's doubling your Unleash damage for only 1 additional mana outlay. There may be other benefits I'm not seeing because I don't have the deck in front of me right now.

- EDIT: Didn't see the Bomb Toss question. My answer is I have no idea, other than maybe an alternate late-game plan trying to set up a big Spellzerker turn. It's absolutely not something I'd run, personally, unless I was teching against Mage specifically.

- It's important to recognise that this deck is not a mindless SMOrc deck - and in fact, such decks don't really exist outside of budget ladder-grind decks. Your early game should absolutely be about early board, and getting out Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Hunter. Midgame is about minimizing what you have to let through on board while pushing more damage. Late game - which for this deck means around turn 7 or 8 - is where you accept the board is lost and make a push to set up lethal. Accept the loss of board to activate a big Wolf-Unleash and push through everything you can.
Knowing when to trade and when to push is a fundamental skill of any aggro deck, and in spite of what memes will tell you, 'always face' is not an acceptable answer.

no offense, but stop circlejerking over how face HUnter is "not as braindead as the plebs would have you believe)

The deck is simple and to the point. You push as much face damage as fast as you can. Board only matters if it threatens your life or can heal your opponent. Dwarven Sharpshooter is only ever used against minions to stop your opponent from value trading so you get more face damage in.

Every deck needs piloting to some extent, you're not special. the deck is literally 80% direct damage, it's as straight aggro as it gets.

If you're playing Face Hunter for the board then you're probably losing more games than you have to. You don#t win by having the board, you win by your opponent not having enough to kill you before you finish him off.

I actually don't play the deck at all, so there's no vested interest there. My comments are wholly from my position as an analyst and theorycrafter. I rarely play very aggressive decks simply because I find piloting them less interesting than other decks, and most of my play this expansion has been on midrange decks with a little bit of highlander thrown in.

That said, I would note that pretty much every single deck that people complain about being 'brainless' in fact requires just as much ability to pilot as any other deck. Knowing when to trade and when to push is a major skill in HS, and funnily enough it's one that most control players never master. 

The classic example is that of the old Pirate Warrior. Ask the average 'man on the street' and he'll whine that it's a braindead aggro deck. Watch a couple of professional players running Pirate Warrior mirrors, on the other hand, and you'll see more depth of technical ability than you'd see in most matchups in Standard today.

To answer your final paragraph - what you're doing there is apparently misreading my post to mean 'always play for the board'. I very specifically laid out the gamestate in my post - you're only looking to hold the board for as long as you reasonably can. You're making a value judgment on what's going to net the most damage over the course of the game - maintaining board vs abandoning it to push. If you enter a game and start playing all-face from turn 1, you will not maximise your winrate with this deck. Hell, your own post states precisely that - Dwarven Sharpshooter exists to prevent value trades to maximise face damage. That is what board control means. You are controlling the game-state to allow your game plan to proceed - your game plan in this case being maximising damage to ensure the game doesn't go too late.

Your statement 'Board only matters if it threatens your life or can heal your opponent' is wholly inaccurate. Board matters when you can judge the board, the gamestate, your opponent's projected deck and projected hand, and you can make the call that you'll get more damage within your expected game duration from playing for board than you will mindlessly pushing. That is a judgment you have to make every turn - arguably multiple times within each turn - when playing a damage-oriented deck. If you're not performing that analysis, you're playing suboptimally.

Wolfrider saw play in old school face Hunter, and cards like Worgen Infiltrator and Nightblade were also common options. But I think there are better options in the current metagame, centered more around the Hero Power (Toxic Reinforcements, Dwarven Sharpshooter, Phase Stalker etc) rather then direct face damage.

wolf rider is best used to replace life drinker instead of animal companion to make your deck extra aggro.

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Quote From Bystekhilcar

There's a difference between even a full face hunter deck, and a mindless SMOrc deck. A lot of the people on ladder play the deck like the latter, certainly, but the only reason to build towards that path is if you simply don't have the cards to build a stronger list.

- Spellzerker is for Rapid Fire first and foremost, as AliRadicali suggests above. It also has a little more relevance in the later stages of the game because these hunter decks expect to lose the board at some point - and any juggles hitting minions are worthless to you at that point (and arguably even earlier given your game-plan).

- Animal Companion wins out over Wolfrider because while the deck expects to lose the board at some point, there's no reason to just throw away all board pressure on turn 3 without really being pushed to do so. Note that with Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Stalker in these decks you have strong early-game board potential, and remember that controlling the board adds up to more damage over time than just throwing everything at face from turn 1.

- I may be wrong (I haven't spent a lot of time on Hunter stats lately), but my assumption is that Timber Wolf is a two-of because Unleash is often your win condition. You want to be able to reliably burst out after losing board. Specifically in that circumstance, it's doubling your Unleash damage for only 1 additional mana outlay. There may be other benefits I'm not seeing because I don't have the deck in front of me right now.

- EDIT: Didn't see the Bomb Toss question. My answer is I have no idea, other than maybe an alternate late-game plan trying to set up a big Spellzerker turn. It's absolutely not something I'd run, personally, unless I was teching against Mage specifically.

- It's important to recognise that this deck is not a mindless SMOrc deck - and in fact, such decks don't really exist outside of budget ladder-grind decks. Your early game should absolutely be about early board, and getting out Dwarven Sharpshooter and Phase Hunter. Midgame is about minimizing what you have to let through on board while pushing more damage. Late game - which for this deck means around turn 7 or 8 - is where you accept the board is lost and make a push to set up lethal. Accept the loss of board to activate a big Wolf-Unleash and push through everything you can.
Knowing when to trade and when to push is a fundamental skill of any aggro deck, and in spite of what memes will tell you, 'always face' is not an acceptable answer.

no offense, but stop circlejerking over how face HUnter is "not as braindead as the plebs would have you believe)

The deck is simple and to the point. You push as much face damage as fast as you can. Board only matters if it threatens your life or can heal your opponent. Dwarven Sharpshooter is only ever used against minions to stop your opponent from value trading so you get more face damage in.

Every deck needs piloting to some extent, you're not special. the deck is literally 80% direct damage, it's as straight aggro as it gets.

If you're playing Face Hunter for the board then you're probably losing more games than you have to. You don#t win by having the board, you win by your opponent not having enough to kill you before you finish him off.

There are a substantial number of decks in the meta that can easily steamroll Face Hunter if you don't play for the board in the early game. Zoo Warlock, Galakrond Warrior, Mech Paladin, Token Druid, Pirate Warrior, etc. The deck is a lot more skill-testing than some would think.

Thanks for the answers guys. I'm trying to get to rank 10 this month, and face Hunter, despite the hate it gets, feels solid enough for me to do that.

Does playing Aggro really mean a lack of skill? I've only been playing since november, but I bought 400 EUR worth of packs and can make every top tier deck. Zoo Warlock is another deck I enjoy, but I tried decks like Holy Wrath Paladin, Quest Priest or Highlander Mage and I just don't get the feel of those.

Quote From troY

Does playing Aggro really mean a lack of skill? I've only been playing since november, but I bought 400 EUR worth of packs and can make every top tier deck. Zoo Warlock is another deck I enjoy, but I tried decks like Holy Wrath Paladin, Quest Priest or Highlander Mage and I just don't get the feel of those.

I don't really think so. I'm no pro player, but I did manage to get Legend once. However, I suck with Aggro decks and can't seem to win with them. It's just personal preference, just play what you like :)

Don't listen to people telling you to not play a specific deck cause it's "brain dead" or something like that, play whatever you like..

Let's not make this hearthpwn where people cry about aggro being broken while playing galakround priest or another tier 10 deck that has 30% win rate against everything. And then they lose those 5 games against face hunter and go on a crusade about how brain dead is face hunter. /rant

I suggest to you to watch some gameplay as people suggested here it's not just aiming all at face without question, you will have easier time knowing some mulligan strategy as well.

Guys, maybe a dumb suggestion, but what about Doomsayer in Face Hunter? I've been trying it out in the 2 mana slot, over Spellzerker, Knife Juggler etc. Because some people mentioned that Face Hunter needs board control in the early turns in order to snowball to a win. Well, Doomsayer usually clears the board and gives me initiative. I once killed a board of Taunts with it so Leeroy could follow up with a Charge to the face, and I also won a game where it killed of my Leper Gnomes for the win.

Maybe I'm thinking too much about it xd

Doomsayer makes Unleash combo's much weaker though, I would advice against it.

Yeah Elven Archer seems like an option between Rapid Fire and Leper Gnome, but is worse then both.

Okay I added Knife Juggler back instead of the Doomsayer. Elven Archer helps me contest the early board early (killing lackey's and stuff) while still being able to SMOrc. I'll keep her for now.

Here are my stats for today with my list: https://imgur.com/11nGo9u

https://imgur.com/11nGo9uhttps://imgur.com/11nGo9

Initially I read 'Doomsayer? In face hunter?' and dismissed it with a derisive snort (I'm good at those). After stopping to think about it though... it's not actually a bad idea. Turn 3 has traditionally been Hunter's power turn, after all, and the main goal of Doomsayer is to snatch initiative heading into a power turn. 

I'm not saying it's optimal, of course. It absolutely isn't - very few decks will be stronger on the board on turn 1 vs face hunter now (I think Warrior is about the only one that can do that), so all you're doing is removing your own advantage while also missing 2 damage from your hero power (or further developing). But it's not awful despite being utterly crazy, which I like.

Re: 'does aggro mean a lack of skill', it absolutely does not. It's a statement you'll hear a lot, though, and usually from 'Control' players who don't actually know what Control means, and who lose every game to aggro while refusing to include anti-aggro techs. Just one of the usual excuses people make for things they don't know how to handle.

Another question. If I were to take Aggro Hunter to Wild, what cards should I add that isn't Baku the Mooneater? Is Bad Luck Albatross a good inclusion since Reno Jackson is in that mode?

Quote From Bystekhilcar

Re: 'does aggro mean a lack of skill', it absolutely does not. It's a statement you'll hear a lot, though, and usually from 'Control' players who don't actually know what Control means, and who lose every game to aggro while refusing to include anti-aggro techs. Just one of the usual excuses people make for things they don't know how to handle.

Aggro vs aggro can be quite skill-testing, but people who never play aggro don't experience those match-ups. Aggro vs control often boils down to who draws better, since even if the control deck has anti-aggro tools, it needs to find them very quickly. There is a limit to how much anti-aggro tech you can run before you become powerless against greedier control decks.

Quote From troY

Another question. If I were to take Aggro Hunter to Wild, what cards should I add that isn't Baku the Mooneater? Is Bad Luck Albatross a good inclusion since Reno Jackson is in that mode?

You're probably better off trying to kill your opponent before they draw Reno or are able to play him.

Any other cards worth crafting? Alleycat, Brave Archer, Fiery Bat etc?

First I'd like empathize with the 400 euro spending. Its not easy to get into hearthstone if you're gonna start now.

I've read most of the comments here and I have to agree in part with yourprivateswamp, in that face hunter, specifically full balls to the wall face hunter in DoD, is braindead in the best description of the word. There's literally no draw cards in the deck aside from tracking. Pretty much from turn 1 all efforts are made literally counting how much damage it will take to kill the opponent. After that its mostly decisions on whether to keep a card to deal with Zilliax or not. Hell, I've seen players lump a Kill Command to my face on turn 3 before. Half the time secrets are played even when they are not relevant, so long as you can still hero power.

Having said that, face hunter historically have never been as completely brain dead as claimed. I will list some obvious decision making below;

- To keep Timber Wolf or play it so your board can trade
- To use Unleash the Hounds to trade or keep it as a finisher
- How many hero powers must be pressed in addition to playing minions in the next few turns
- To hold Tundra Rhino, or play and pray theres no answer
- To Kill Command a big minion (No taunt, lifesteal) to sustain board, or keep it for face

That is the face hunter of yore, during the ungoro days. Same strat, but in no way braindead. Games typically drag as far as turn 8-9. Back in the day when call of the wild was 8 mana, face hunter has 1-2 copies too.

Beast hunter is still playable in the meta right now. Its just a more complex deck compared to the current face hunter. In fact, lets not even call that face hunter, lets just call it 'turn 6 hunter'. Games never last longer.

Quote From Zelgadis

Quote From Bystekhilcar

Re: 'does aggro mean a lack of skill', it absolutely does not. It's a statement you'll hear a lot, though, and usually from 'Control' players who don't actually know what Control means, and who lose every game to aggro while refusing to include anti-aggro techs. Just one of the usual excuses people make for things they don't know how to handle.

Aggro vs aggro can be quite skill-testing, but people who never play aggro don't experience those match-ups. Aggro vs control often boils down to who draws better, since even if the control deck has anti-aggro tools, it needs to find them very quickly. There is a limit to how much anti-aggro tech you can run before you become powerless against greedier control decks.

I'm not sure how far I'd agree, really. Sure, some games are determined that way, but equally, that's true of any matchup. It's not like you need to find all your anti-aggro tools in every match, after all, just enough of them to turn the corner (most of the time). Also, the very fact that you've got limited anti-aggro tools is a major skill factor - knowing when to sit on your defensive options and when to rip them is important. There's also a fair bit of basic prioritisation in there - you'd be amazed how many people I see sit on cards like Baleful Banker in aggro matchups instead of ripping them on turn 2, despite playing at a level where they should have learned better long ago

Quote From Bystekhilcar

Quote From Zelgadis

Aggro vs aggro can be quite skill-testing, but people who never play aggro don't experience those match-ups. Aggro vs control often boils down to who draws better, since even if the control deck has anti-aggro tools, it needs to find them very quickly. There is a limit to how much anti-aggro tech you can run before you become powerless against greedier control decks.

I'm not sure how far I'd agree, really. Sure, some games are determined that way, but equally, that's true of any matchup. It's not like you need to find all your anti-aggro tools in every match, after all, just enough of them to turn the corner (most of the time). Also, the very fact that you've got limited anti-aggro tools is a major skill factor - knowing when to sit on your defensive options and when to rip them is important. There's also a fair bit of basic prioritisation in there - you'd be amazed how many people I see sit on cards like Baleful Banker in aggro matchups instead of ripping them on turn 2, despite playing at a level where they should have learned better long ago

Draw RNG is part of any matchup, but the shorter the game, the more each individual draw matters. Especially with the way mana curves in Hearthstone: high-cost cards can be literally unplayable in short games.

Skill can certainly give you an edge: I have lost more games than I'd like to admit by playing into Mortal Strike or Unleash the Hounds. But I've had even more games (from either side) decided by the defensive player drawing Zilliax.

Part of the reason draw RNG has such a large role is that many aggro decks only fight for the board for a few turns and then switch to a burn plan. So the window for the slower deck to interact with the board in a way that matters is fairly small. In the burn phase, there is far less counter-play.

With a mid-range deck you can have success trying to race them; I won quite a few matches of Even Warlock vs aggressive Paladins and Mages by running a Giant into their face. But with a control deck the threats usually come too late for such a strategy to work.

Quote From JackJimson

Agree on Doomsayer. It's bad on face hunter.

As the face hunter, you are the aggressor and should use every bit of mana to push damage.

Doomsayer is more a defensive tool. Also drawing it late when looking for damage for lethal can be back breaking.

Additionally, I would argue against Elven Archers. I'd prolly take Leper Gnomes over them. They do 1 more damage and the targeted aspect matters less in a face deck. Also you need Tracking I think. You need to find damage for reach. The discarded cards don't really matter in a short game. 

It's a meta call really. Doomsayer shores up a lot of facehunter's bad matchups against decks that can get on the board before the face hunter. If you're not facing a lot of those, you cut the doomsayers, obviously. If you are, you can try to counter that or switch to a different deck. Other than some of the secrets, facehunter has very limited board control options against minion rush strategies. It also doesn't hurt that Doomsayer plays well with most secrets, making it even more difficult for an opponent to navigate their turn optimally.

In a deck that doesn't really care about maintaining the board once you get ahead, at worst Doomsayer is heal 7 for 2 mana, which is mighty relevant in a face-race. If your opponent is trading off your board and doomsayer that means one more turn you can burst them down. It might even contribute to an Unleash the Hounds + Timber Wolf burst for lethal.

After playing over a 100 games in this last week, I decided to cut Leeroy Jenkins (running Tracking for now). It's good burst damage later in the game but: a) turn 5+ is almost always a Taunt turn (Shield of Galakrond is most common) and b) I lost as many games with him being a dead early draw, as I won games with his 6 damage Charge.Here's my list for now:

Not running Doomsayer anymore, I like Knife Juggler the most as the "flex" spot of the deck. Has synergy with the sidequest, Unleash the Hounds and Snake Trap. Also I'm using the exact same deck in Wild and it works fine there as well!

I think Leeroy Jenkins is just too good to cut from an aggro deck, specifically one that doesn't care about the board. Its 6 damage for 5 mana, and all in one card. Its just does alot for one card, and for a deck without draw that counts for a lot.

The common taunt on 5 is not really relevant for face hunter, in my opinion. At that point you will most likely have no board to do anything about it anyway. Its usually hero power every turn or bust. I'm a little surprised you cut out Explosive Trap to be honest, even more surprised that there's only one Tracking.

May I ask what's your win rate in standard with this list?

I did not cut Explosive Trap though, but Tracking I find a hard card to use, and I never use it early, only in situation where I need a specific card so I can look for it. 2 clogs so I went with 1, feels good enough for me. Another card that feels a bit subpar to me is Animal Companion. I am really considering Wolfrider in this slot.

Here's my winrate. It's at 72%, but keep in mind that I used this to climb from rank 25 to 10, and there are some wackey decks in the lower tiers.

I am getting better at this deck though, not using every burn card when I can but saving it for 1 big burst, opponents had Zilliax on 5 way to often so it's better to play around it :p

Yeah, I kinda overlooked the Explosive Trap.

Thanks for the stats by the way.

Okay, so I almost made it to rank 5. Finished my exams so will be climbing hard the next couple of days. Made some changes though:

I took out the [Hearthstone Card (Unleash the Hound) Not Found]s and Timber Wolfs and put in another Freezing Trap and double Ironbeak Owl, and this seems to be working vs Druid. I'm also considering Blazing Battlemages to accompany Skydiving Instructor perhaps?

I had a similar thought actually, I am trying Desert Spear over Unleash because it's more pro-active, and an Ironbeak Owl for Druid indeed. Skydiving Instructor is more of a Zoo card, I don't think it fits well in Hunter.

So I've been trying some more things.

1) Added Frenzied Felwing -> removed 1x Timber Wolf and 1x Unleash the Hounds

2) Added Blazing Battlemage -> removed Leper Gnome

3) Added Waterboy -> Removed Kobold Sandtrooper

4) Added second Tracking -> Removed Snake Trap

These changes make the deck a whole lot faster and I feel it has increased my winrate. Thoughts?

Waterboy. No one's that desperate lol.

Basically you're putting this card as a free 2/1. Kobold Sandtrooper, assuming its not silenced, objectively does more damage while putting the same body on board for the same mana.