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Legends of Runeterra | Posted by | 6 years ago
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Kalista tweaks

What do you all think Riot will do to her in the next patch, since they mentioned her by name?

Right now her problems are: She's too reliant upon her bonded, she's a fearsome 3 drop when other 3 power cards are coming out, she can't be played alone (wants a bonded unit), her bonded can be recalled thereby making her the only champion that can be 'purified' denying her her full abilities alongside being very frail.

By most games I have used her in, almost never use her turn 3 unless there's a really good unit to play her on making her actually be a turn 4-5 unit.

The bonded issue could be solved by her wording changed to "I bond with the strongest unit. Bonded is granted +2/+0". Or making it so the bond persists even if the unit is recalled (pulling it from your hand in case of the level up).

As for the rest maybe a rule change on fearsome?

Fearsome could be changed from "Can't be blocked by a unit 2 power or less" to "Can't be blocked by a unit less than or equal to it's power."

Gives them a new thing to play around with and makes cards like Tryndamere, Legion General, Cithria the Bold, and Trifarion Shieldbreaker more interesting to play as well.

What do you all think? I enjoy reading these forums and they have been helping my own gameplay.

 

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  • What do you all think Riot will do to her in the next patch, since they mentioned her by name?

    Right now her problems are: She's too reliant upon her bonded, she's a fearsome 3 drop when other 3 power cards are coming out, she can't be played alone (wants a bonded unit), her bonded can be recalled thereby making her the only champion that can be 'purified' denying her her full abilities alongside being very frail.

    By most games I have used her in, almost never use her turn 3 unless there's a really good unit to play her on making her actually be a turn 4-5 unit.

    The bonded issue could be solved by her wording changed to "I bond with the strongest unit. Bonded is granted +2/+0". Or making it so the bond persists even if the unit is recalled (pulling it from your hand in case of the level up).

    As for the rest maybe a rule change on fearsome?

    Fearsome could be changed from "Can't be blocked by a unit 2 power or less" to "Can't be blocked by a unit less than or equal to it's power."

    Gives them a new thing to play around with and makes cards like Tryndamere, Legion General, Cithria the Bold, and Trifarion Shieldbreaker more interesting to play as well.

    What do you all think? I enjoy reading these forums and they have been helping my own gameplay.

     

    • Quote From Kushinade

      What do you all think Riot will do to her in the next patch, since they mentioned her by name?

      If they decide to rework her, I don't think it will anything I'd expect it to be.  I can tell you what I would like it to be, though:

      Option A: cheap and aggressive a la Lucian & Zed

      1. Remove the bond mechanic entirely and just replace it with "Support: Fearsome and +1/+0" because bond doesn't play well with rez/recall/detain mechanics and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel here
      2. Change the level up requirement to global, e.g. "You've had 5 allies die" because Kalista is made out of paper plus SI has no inherent way to protect her so its cruel to try to force players to have her survive that long
      3. Change the L2 effect to "Attack: summon a random allied follower who has died this game.  It has ephemeral and is attacking." so that way the ephemeral and death-loving archetypes can get some love

      Option B: backline value a la Heimer & Karma

      1. She still bonds for +2/+0 on Played and still must see 3 deaths to level up
      2. Change stats from 4/2 to 1/4 at L1, 2/5 at L2 because she needs to actually live to do the aforementioned.  Keep Fearsome tag because why not.
      3. Change the L2 effect to "At the start of each turn, if my bondmate is absent, resummon him and reforge the bond." so that it persists through recall & detain mechanics, doesn't require Kalista to put herself at risk to get value, and still gets value on rounds where you don't have the attack token.

  • Changing Fearsome to "Can't be blocked by a unit with less than or equal to its power" would make it the most broken mechanic in the game. Any sizable fearsome unit would force the opponent to take unfavorable trades or would just be unblockable if the opponent doesn't have high attack units. Can you for example imagine only being able to block Commander Ledros with 9+ attack units? Or having to block Tryndamere with an 8+ attack unit, and then with a 9+ attack unit?

    As for the Kalista problem, I'm really not sure what they should do with her. Her bonding mechanic is really cool both thematically and gameplay-wise, but it's also akward to use well right now. If they buff her stats they might have to remove fearsome, which I wouldn't really mind. They could also make the bond buff stronger or change what it does entirely (again).

    • Quote From GerritDeMan

      Changing Fearsome to "Can't be blocked by a unit with less than or equal to its power" would make it the most broken mechanic in the game. Any sizable fearsome unit would force the opponent to take unfavorable trades or would just be unblockable if the opponent doesn't have high attack units. Can you for example imagine only being able to block Commander Ledros with 9+ attack units? Or having to block Tryndamere with an 8+ attack unit, and then with a 9+ attack unit?

      As for the Kalista problem, I'm really not sure what they should do with her. Her bonding mechanic is really cool both thematically and gameplay-wise, but it's also akward to use well right now. If they buff her stats they might have to remove fearsome, which I wouldn't really mind. They could also make the bond buff stronger or change what it does entirely (again).

      it's funny, because Kalista's ability doesn'T reflect her main game counterpart at all after they nerfed it. They really should reconsider and maybe give the whole "my bonded target takes damage for me" mechanic again, except with a high cost or lower stats.

  • Maybe they'll make it so she can move once before the attack phase happens since she can do a side step in-game? IDK best idea I got since I SUCK at balancing anything

  • I am a bit worried if they decide to buff Khalista tbh. I believe the problem is that her statline doesn't synergises with her level up requirement.

    She has Fearsome 4/2 stats, which implies its an agressive card; but her upgraded form requires that she survives for a while, which its a bit counterproductive, since the optimal way to level her up is to simply don't attack with her and watch your other minions trade, as this will also protect her bound.
    But playing Khalista this way is suboptimal as her stats are bad for a defensive card, also sitting at 2 heath she is very easy to remove with spells.

    Khalista doen't really needs a buff: Riot should just rework her stats to be a defensive card OR another level up requirement to match her agressive stats.

     

  • Yea you're right above the fearsome in that way. I kinda did like the old way where her bonded did block for her making her more attack oriented.

    What about Support then?

    Bond to a unit, granting it +2/+0. Support: Supporting unit damage takes damage in place of Kalista.

    Level up remains the same as it is now.

    Mechanic change can be recalled units rebond when replayed. So it stays whether in grave or hand.

    Defense turns means you can't chump block with it or you can shoot down the 'support' to get her.

     

  • They could probably flip her stats to make her viable.

    Staff

  • That would gut her more than help her. She'd have no offensive ability in order to 'take a hit'.

    That's a 3 drop 2/4. So instead of 6 offense stats you'd drop it to 4.

    However an edit to the above comment. Make the bonding on summoned instead of play. Again, her bond is the core of the mechanic so if she's revived, there's no bonding.

  • The fact that the bond is so easily broken is a big part of the problem, but it seems like it would be more thematic if she were bonded to another champion, and if that bond occurred at the start of the game. What about something like this:

    Level 1: "Start of game: I bond with another Champion in your deck. Grant it +2|+0 while we're both in play."

    Level 2: "The first time I attack this game, revive my bonded Champion attacking."

    I can imagine some ways this would get busted, so it may be too strong, but if they want to leave her as an aggressively stated 3-drop, she needs to also have the bond occur either at start of game or as a support trigger, because today needing to play her into a decent unit means she comes down well after she's useful.

  • The only issue I have with that is it makes her look and feel like Thresh. 

    Especially when both have similar level up mechanics.

    Would be interesting if she could chuck her bonded at her target and do that then.

    2/4 when summoned bond with a unit. Grant it +2/+0.

    Attack: Bonded strikes the target.

    Level up could leave her stats the same but bonded becomes +4/+0

    Animmation can be her usual haze then spears the target. If it survives they fight like normal. Most of those animations are also in the game anyways.

  • Kalista 3M 3/2 (edited)
    Bonded allied gain +1/+0
    Edit: Quick attack
    "Strike: remove me from combat" (Martial Poise)
    "When my bonded allied block an attack, remove it from combat." (Fate's Call)

    • It's interesting I suppose, however she'd still die. She doesn't have quick attack, unlike Katarina who is similar, to strike FIRST then remove herself. Turn 3+ people will be having 3+ units.

      Also you're removing 3 points of offense off her as well for very little gain (2 from herself and 1 from the bonded.)

      Wouldn't mind it if she had a good ability. She's now an Elise without any perks. I was thinking earlier it could be a problem because she has no units that synergize with her.

      Hecarim wants ephemerals and buffs them.

      Elise wants spiders and buffs them.

      Thresh is happy if anything dies and pulls a champion (hopefully strong).

      Kalista wants allies to die. I'm not sure what you can do since she's a 1M weaker Lucien.

      Lucien wants allies to die. Yet he has quick attack upgraded to double attack, access to buffs in Demacia, and rallies.

      Between the two there's no contest.

      • I edited a little bit, since you are right with QA (there are too many champs with this keyword), and I want to clarify this: Removing from combat Kalista or her bonded ally doesn't bounce them to hand, just they "retreat". It might be good if both, ally and Kalista act the same with the skill, removing both only when they strike on attack. Just to be more consistent and play her more aggro oriented.

        I really want to preserve her LOL identity, since there are some champs that has nothing to do with their League counterpart.

  • Actually I'll revise that. Leglock might be on the right track.

    3M - 2/4  Fearsome

    When summoned bond to an ally. Grant it +1/+0 for every ally that dies.

    Strike: If I die this round, revive me.

    Level Up - I've seen 3 allies die.

    2/4 Fearsome, Overwhelm

    When summoned bond to an ally. Grant us +1/+0 for every ally that dies.

    Strike: If I die this round, revive me.

     

    Now kalista can still bond to an ally. Breaking a bond doesn't remove her kit entirely, just delays it. She thrives on units dying giving her use with regular, last breath, and ephemeral units. She can be killed with removal. She can be killed by quick attack units on defensive rounds. Strikes give her a way to revive for another round however it also removes all the buffs she was granted. All the animations for her are already in game (bond/haze effect when struck). She has a way to do damage late game. You can even remove overwhelm from Hecarim!

    She is now a champion dependant on other units for full utility yet still has some utility herself.

     

     

     

  • I don't play LoL, but looking at her over there, I don't really see a ton of similarity to her LoR incarnations, past or present.

    Her LoL abilities that stick out in my mind are Sentinel (bonus damage when striking same target as Oathsworn) and Fate's Call (Teleport Oathsworn to Kalista and give it a dash attack with knockback).

    Sentinel kinda sorta translates into the +2 attack she gives now, but obviously the "attacks the same target" part can never happen unless you're talking about the nexus. Maybe make it so when her target strikes an enemy, Kalista gets a free strike against it? Maybe only if both are attacking? This would be more balanced if her stats were 2/4 as others have suggested.

    The teleporting/dash thing seems like maybe after she levels up, her Oathsworn gets Quick Attack?

    Her current level up quest is generic and boring and used by another Champion, so it definitely needs to change. Maybe "My Oathsworn strikes two times"? I feel like it should definitely be predicated on something the Oathsworn does.

    Or maybe forget all that and just don't make her level up before she gets to rez her Oathsworn. Let her do that right off the bat, but maybe restrict what can be designated as her Oathsworn.

  • Ok, here we go again:

    Kalista 3M 3/2 Quick attack
    When i am summoned bond me when an allied unit.
    Bonded allied gain +1/+0

    "Strike: remove me from combat" (Martial Poise)
    "When my bonded allied strike with me, give him Quick Attack and remove it from combat." (Fate's Call)

    Level up requesit: remove me or/and my bonded ally 3 times

    Level up: My bonded ally and I gain +1/+0 every time we  survive combat.
    If my bonded ally dies and I attack, revive him attacking.

  • I too don't like adding quick attack to Kalista; she starts to feel like a variation on Lucian / Zed / Jinx / Draven / Yasuo.

    I don't mind Kushinade's idea of making her function more like The Undying.

    I could also see something like making her like a 4 mana 5/3, bond gives no immediate benefit, and has "If my bond mate dies, add its stats to me.  Last Whisper: add my stats to my bond mate"--that way she still can still be fragile, but now at least there's some immediate recuperation.  

  • Yeah I didn't want to add QA to her either. Since she was originally supposed to try to avoid damage by her bonded absorbing it for her, her kit's weak as is.

    Personally I like the strike - Last breath type feel to her. She can now work with lucien, thresh, or even hecarim himself if you use Mark of the Isles on her or Stirred Spirits (never see it used actually).

    The 2/4 is also a unique statline on her versus going 3/2. The only reason I add anything to her kit after the level up is her bonded can change. Versus having it bring it back to life. She can leave that type of thing to Thresh (maybe update him so he does it fully instead of just 1 champion pull/game.)

    I should update that though so.

    Kalista 3M

    2/4 Fearsome

    Attack or summoned: Bond to one ally. Grant them +1/+0 for every ally that dies.

    Strike - If I die, revive me.

    Level up - I've seen three allies die.

    Level up stats:

    Kalista 3M

    2/4 Fearsome, Overwhelm

    Attack or summoned: Bond to one ally. Grant us +1/+0 for every ally that dies.

    Strike - If I die, revive me.

     

    Changing of the wording for it. Having the game pause as you make a bonded if one, or both die could be stagnating. Now if she's summoned you make a bond initially. This stops recalls and detains from permanently removing her bond stats. If she revives the bond isn't broken nor can she make multiple bonded. If the bonded dies it's temporarily broken. To remake a bond she must attack (meaning you choose another to bond with her), thereby keeping her flavor alive.

    She herself is weak at the start with few stats and summoned on turns where fearsome lose some of their ability to avoid damage. The level up is to give her an identity and make her actually strong later in the game. Switching it from "them" to "us" means she also gets the benefits but no inherent stat increases herself. You can either "store" some damage up on her later to use the overwhelm or use it each turn if you want to (ala undying). Yes if she dies she is reborn without the +1's she gained before. So no stacking an inhumane overwhelm that way. She can gain them after though.

    Again she now has uses in every region but excels in a few. Overwhelm with Freyjord/Noxus. Rally with lucien. Hell create some insane Zeds.

  • If she keeps the bond mechanic, I'd really like to see her mana cost change too--e.g., 4 mana for 3/5 stats.  One of the big problems with using her in practice right now is that you need the bondmate on the board, and even the best targets at 2- mana (i.e., the turns before you can play Kalista on curve) are fairly low impact: Elise, Lucian, Sentry, and Omen Hawk are probably the best I can think of.  At 3 mana, you open up a lot of possibilities: Skitterer, Shadow Assassin, Undying, Used Cask Salesman, Braum, Ezreal, and Draven just to name a few.

    • True, but since she's coming out later she shares a spot with Thresh.

      At 3 mana and 2/4 the bonded is a 'flavor' mechanic. It's more important before she levels but is not as detrimental when she levels.

      Also the bonded does NOT come back when it dies in either form. That's why she has the means to reforge bonds. If she dies, and revives, the bond remains. And more importantly the bonded gains a +1/+0 for her doing so. If the bonded dies first in a 5 death train, she gains +5/+0 after her level up.

      Or until she dies and revives. Then she's back to 2/4 again.

      You can use her first in a death train. She'd die, the bonded gains the +1/+0 for it. The next 4 gives both of them +1/+0. If the bonded lives, she gains the +4/+0 and the bonded gets +5/+0. If this was a defense round and nothing else happens. You can open attack with a 6/4 kalista and a +5/+0 bonded. That is burst and nasty.

      It also can be stopped. Frostbite ensures she doesn't strike. Cutthroat can kill her outright. Vengeance, dravens ult (can't remember what the spell is called), quick attack, double mystic shot, thermo beam, etc. All still can kill her so she can be removed. There's endless ways to remove her like every other champion.

      Adding her at 4 mana though puts her behind a bit and also overlaps other champions who are later. Now at 3, you could bond to an elise initially. At turn 4 you can block/attack with her. If she lives she has the revive remaining. Ancient Crocalith her and elise. Now you have a 7/7 croc and 2/4 kalista. Bonded to the croc (since both dies and she revives, the one ally bond is broken so she reverts to the summon portion).

       

  • After running it with coworkers came up with this (snowing we’re bored).

    Kalista 3M

    2/4 Fearsome

    Play or attack: Grant an ally +1/+0

    Strike: If I die revive me at end of round.

    Level up - I’ve seen 3 allies die.

    4/4 Fearsome

    Play or attack: Grant an ally and I +1/+0

    Stike: If I die revive me at end of round.

    • Quote From Kushinade

      After running it with coworkers came up with this (snowing we’re bored).

      Kalista 3M

      2/4 Fearsome

      Play or attack: Grant an ally +1/+0

      Strike: If I die revive me at end of round.

      Level up - I’ve seen 3 allies die.

      4/4 Fearsome

      Play or attack: Grant an ally and I +1/+0

      Stike: If I die revive me at end of round.

      I like that you're thinking outside the box on this, but it's not clear how the "Play or Attack" would resolve, since it can grant "an ally" (rather than all allies) but there's no opportunity to target things with "Attack" abilities today.

      Also, I don't really get why your version revives herself. The distinguishing features of Kalista in League seem to be:

      • She turns an allied Champion into her Oathsworn at the start of the game
      • Her Pierce and Rend abilities enable her to kill an enemy and immediately start stacking up damage on the nearest target
      • When she and her Oathsworn attack the same target, she deals extra damage
      • Her ult teleports her Oathsworn to her to deliver a big hit to a Champion and all enemies in an area
      • Kalista is explicitly not a support hero because her role is ADC/Marksman (i.e. she should be able to go on offense)

      From a flavor/fantasy standpoint, I think the existing Kalista really checks a lot of those boxes. Some problems, though, are that you don't really want to use her on offense or she'll die before she levels up, and the bond isn't permanent.

      What about this:

      In this version, the bond is permanent, so things like recall don't leave you stuck with two meh units when you replay the bonded unit. It also buffs both of them when they're both in play. So, Kalista is still vulnerable to a fair number of damage-based removal spells, but so long as her Oathsworn is in play she's a bit sturdier than she is today. Additionally, her level-up condition has changed to be focused on enemy deaths, as she is much more focused on killing enemies one after another in LoL.