Elusive Balancing - Showerthought...

I had an idea this morning...

Some of the interactions in LoR aren't....let's say as refined as they should be.  One of those being how people play and interact with Elusive creatures.

I kept thinking "well why didn't they just make it like Hearthstone's elusives, where they can't be targeted by spells" but then I realized that in a game where certain units can block, elusives in Hearthstone are like "anti removal".  But Elusives in LoR are the opposite, they can't be blocked except by other elusives...

So then I thought.  Well...that kind of makes them more like Hearthstone's stealth, but again...stealth isn't really a mechanic in LoR and it's not quite the same.

LoR is about a game where "ANY" unit can block....elusives requiring OTHER elusives to block makes no sense.  It either promotes a meta of nothing but elusives, or nothing but removal.  Neither of which is healthy.   If a card dictates the meta that much there's obviously a problem.

Then I had a fantastic idea.  Legends of Runeterra already has Quick Attack, which makes a unit on offense essentially able to get a free attack (stipulations obviously not considered here for brevity).

What if the Elusive mechanic was reworked into the opposite of quick attack.  Kinda like "Quick Defense"  Instead of Elusives requiring other elusives to block.  Any card with quick attack is generally better on offense than defense.  What if Elusive cards were better on DEFENSE instead of offense.  Elusive could be reworked into something like "the first damage or spell this round is dodged".  Meaning that an elusive card on offense would be able to be blocked by ANY unit (no longer requiring other elusives) but on defense it would not take any damage.

However, things like quick attack or double attack (Lucian/Senna) could bypass elusive.  So in order to kill an elusive unit, you have to force them to use it on offense, or you have to use a "ping" type spell (like Mystic shot for example).

It would work similar to barrier in that sense, but barrier can be used both offensively/defensively, where Elusive would be a defensive only mechanic to be the opposite of quick attack.  

Of course with all of this occurring in this hypothetical scenario, Elusive would become a much better Armor mechanic (which IMO is a crappy mechanic that hardly anyone uses, it rarely ever helps and probably needs to be reworked or buffed itself, or alternatively allow the Tough mechanic to stack...)

Anyhow...just my shower thought this morning...

In terms of mechanics, having a defensive version of Quick Attack seems pretty reasonable to me, but from a flavor standpoint it's radically different from elusive, and feels more appropriate in a region like Demacia (which is a lot more focused on establishing a board of big, tough guys).

The fix for Elusive is ultimately to print more cards across regions that can deal with Elusive units (cheap removal, AOEs, challengers, etc.) so that the metagame can consistently re-balance itself when Elusives are a problem.

True, the biggest problem I see is that mechanics are naturally supposed to be stronger in some regions, and weaker in others.  For example "Tough" is a mechanic you'd expect to see in Demacia, but not something you'd expect to see in Shadow Isles.  

Elusive has some smattering of units in each area. But for reference:

• Demacia: 1
• Freljord: 0
• Ionia: 10 + 1 spell that grants elusive
• Noxus: 0
• P&Z:  5 + multiple other cards that grant elusive through various means.
• Shadow Isles: 0

Point being that the region restriction is both LoR biggest draw as well as it's biggest weakness.  Want to counter elusives?  Guess you have to run Ionia as 1/2 your deck.  

I'm not even sure at this point how they balance some of the stuff (not even talking about elusives at this point) because it seems like they've dug themselves into a corner.

How did u never mention challenger units or frostbite effects is amazing to me.

But good read nevertheless 

Quote From Marega

How did u never mention challenger units or frostbite effects is amazing to me.

Challengers, yes. But how does Frostbite counter elusives? I fact, I'd argue it's a lot less effective than against non-elusives (on which you can get free damage during combat).

I will say that the OP's idea for a new mechanic sounds really neat. But as Meisterz pointed out, there's no thematic link to the units which currently have the Elusive keyword.

Frostbite effects are generally temporary soft counters.  You either play a unit that frostbites an enemy for one turn (in which case they just don't attack with it), or you use a burst spell to frostbite the enemy (in which case you still need your own elusive to actually kill it).  We aren't considering combos like Frostbite+Shatter or Winter's Breath because then you're using MULTIPLE resources just to kill an elusive unit.  (And barring super expensive setup end game combos like enlightened Karma+Winter's Breath) you should avoid using multiple resources just to kill a single card unless it's a champion. 

In the circumstances where you use multiple card combos to kill a champion, especially one that is central to the opponents gameplan, like Ezreal or Teemo, then I agree it's fine to "waste" resources.

But in general discussion of elusives as a card mechanic on the whole,  it's not a great idea to waste removal.  Even in the circumstances where you use efficient removal of 1:1 ratios to kill elusives, you're then using your removal on relatively weak cards.  The whole idea behind removal is that you are using it to efficiently control the state of the board.  

As for challenger, Yes challenger can pull Elusives,  but it's a mechanic that only favors attacking.  Your challenger units can't block a buffed elusive, and in general if you're trying to counter elusives currently you need a mechanic that can be used for both offense and defense. (like spells for example)  I've used challenger to pull and kill Elusives, but generally speaking it's hard to consistently pull it off, because often you'll get stunned/recalled.  (i.e. stalled out) while they continue to progress their gameplan. 

You're welcome to contribute, just saying my post this morning was because I know there's lot of contention about Elusive and it's effect on the meta.  You don't necessarily have to agree with me, but there are times when I think the mechanic has caused more harm to the game because of it's design limitation, then it helps. 

Challenger keyword is half an answer, cause you can only activate it when you are attacking, we would be looking for "Taunt" keyword that can be specific to "challenger on the defense" of an elusive attack, which is the same as having an elusive unit as your block.

As for something that have the same mechanic as Elusives, you can check the game "Eternal" and their "Flying" units that can only be blocked by other Flying units, the only difference is, all regions/class/factions have access to their own plethora of flying units.

Or this other game I forgot it's name, where blocking an enemy attack is based on the unit's "Speed", a unit with speed "3" can't be blocked by units of speed "1" or "2".

I think the introduction of more cards into the game will solve the elusive concern. We just have think elusive as "flying" in terms of mtg. MTG doesn't really have a single minded "flying" deck because all the colors have solutions.

White - Hard removal
Blue - Bounce and counterspells
black - Hard removal
red - direct damage
green - reach and direct damage to flying units only

@Sykomyke

His concept of a Quick Defense to block elusive units is a good idea. I'm all for this being introduced to new cards. I had similar idea in another thread, I called it Sentry, i think.

Another idea is direct damage to elusives only. I am a bit less of a fan of this idea, but it is an option.

I do have growing concern elusives are going to be worse with the new set.  Scout on top Elusive on top of Rally seems like a really bad idea in the making.

Also a Deny for a unit would be nice as well. Even though I dread the concept of control players getting another tool.

Quote From Sykomyke

True, the biggest problem I see is that mechanics are naturally supposed to be stronger in some regions, and weaker in others.  For example "Tough" is a mechanic you'd expect to see in Demacia, but not something you'd expect to see in Shadow Isles.  

Elusive has some smattering of units in each area. But for reference:

• Demacia: 1
• Freljord: 0
• Ionia: 10 + 1 spell that grants elusive
• Noxus: 0
• P&Z:  5 + multiple other cards that grant elusive through various means.
• Shadow Isles: 0

To VictorVonVox's point, this kind of asymmetry is okay - you want each region to feel meaningfully different, much as the colors do in MTG.

Quote From Sykomyke

Point being that the region restriction is both LoR biggest draw as well as it's biggest weakness.  Want to counter elusives?  Guess you have to run Ionia as 1/2 your deck.  

I'm not even sure at this point how they balance some of the stuff (not even talking about elusives at this point) because it seems like they've dug themselves into a corner.

This is really the big problem. It's fine for mechanics to be stronger or weaker in different regions, but you can't have a mechanic that is simultaneously concentrated in a small subset of regions and inherently stronger than other mechanics (mostly because Ionia has counters and burst speed buffs to protect their largely untouchable units from the few answers that exist today).

Most CCGs would solve this in simple ways (higher mana costs, lower stats for Elusives, etc.), but Riot seems reluctant to do that broadly for fear that they'll make Elusives too weak/invalidate a large part of the Ionia identity. In that way, I agree that they've put themselves in a corner, but only for Ionia, not for the game writ large.

This is why I think they need to just print a lot more cards - either to add other things to the Ionia identity so that they can reasonably nerf Elusives, or to make lots of real counters across other regions so that they're not inherently oppressive.

I think elusives can be fixed by printing counters to them in every region. For example, they could add a Keyword that lets units block Elusives without having elusive (let’s call it Vigilant). Then other regions could have a lot of fairly statted cards with this keyword. Riot could also print elusive counter cards like a 5 Mana 5/6 with “Elusives have Vulnerable” to solve the problem. As long as every region has a few good elusive counter cards, the Keyword can remain balanced.

But isn't this kind of what fearsome is?  Fearsome is "you can only block if you have attack greater than 3".  It's more or less giving the attacking unit partial elusive.  Again I can't help but feel that all the mechanics in LoR feel disjointed, like they were each designed by a different person and then everyone got together and put their ideas into the pot but now none of them feel fully fleshed out...and the result is going to be inherently stronger mechanics than others. 

I mean a perfect point I made earlier which i want to highlight is the "Tough" mechanic.  This should not just be "1 damage" but should be "this unit has Toughness (or Armor) 2, and blocks 2 damage from any source.  Tough the spell should stack with existing tough.   This prevents that unit from incremental damage but not burst damage.  It can be more useful than regeneration in niche scenarios.  But anyhow, my point being that you don't see anyone building "Tough" decks because the mechanic is just inherently weak due to design.  Conversely Elusive is a strong mechanic because of the way the game is based AND becuase of how Ionia (the biggest offender of Elusive decks) works with their bounce/stun mechanics along with their ability to buff cards.

I think printing more cards *might* work, but 1) that may dilute the region fantasy/theme.  and 2) It might make matters worse printing all these niche cards to counter other cards to counter other cards.  IMO keeping the core game simple is necessary because if the core game just prints a ton of cards instead of making balanced core regions, then the game is going to quickly spiral out of control into an unorganized mess.

We will have to see how it plays out, but all of the OP keyword in Runeterra is just a mimic of something in MTG and MTG doesn't have this problem. They create stupidly overpowered cards that shouldn't exist *cough* Jace. But that's another topic. I think MTG doesn't have a keyword problem, because of the amount of cards they have. LoR only has 350-ish cards right now. Set 2 is going to add 120-ish from what I gather.  Standard MTG has between 1400-2800 cards in circulation at any given time. Grant it many of them are completely useless, but the point being being, let's give them the chance with more cards being introduced.

Runeterra to MTG
Fearsome = Fear
Elusive = Flying
Quick Attack (Offense Only) = First Strike
Double Attack (Offense Only) = Double Strike
Tough/Barrier = No keyword, but their are damage prevention mechanics.
Overwhelm = Trample
Lifesteal = Lifelink
Challenger = Provoke

People also complain Regenerate and Last Breath were too strong. Give the game to develop we are only 12 weeks into the game and it's technically in beta still.

The biggest problem with elusives IMHO isn't any single elusive or even the mechanic itself, its how easy it is to build a burn deck around them.

The direct parallel is flying in M:tG.  For those of you unfamiliar, Magic has a tag which is functionally identical: flying units can only be blocked by other fliers, but they can block anything themselves; its mostly blue and with some white and some red.  There are always some Magic decks that try to win by leveraging flying units, but its rarely meta-defining as they are much less aggressive.  This is partially due to how units are budgeted in M:tG (e.g., 2 mana for a 1/1 vanilla flier in Magic versus a Greenglade Duo in LoR), but also due to how many offerings there are for building a deck of elusives in LoR. 

Basically: you can make a elusive deck where you can usually burn an opponent down to ~10 HP after 3 attacks while keeping your board.  That's insane!   Noxus/P&Z "burn" decks are lucky when they can progress that fast.  Or perhaps more to the point: Noxus/P&Z burn decks usually lose to elusive even though they should have an advantage on paper as their units have more stats for the same mana costs.  If I could wave a magic wand and change one thing about this game, I would just obliterate every elusive for 3 or less mana.  I think giving Ionia the option for huge unblockable swings circa The Empyrean is fine, but it should be limited to mid-game AFTER they've stabilize against aggro decks.  Right now they get the best of both worlds, and Riot's current approach--doing subtle number tweaks to individual cards--just isn't cutting it.  Either the card is still good and remains in the decks--a la conspirator--or it gets replaced by the next-best thing--a la Omen Hawk replacing Inspiring Mentor.

Quote From Sykomyke

I think printing more cards *might* work, but 1) that may dilute the region fantasy/theme.  and 2) It might make matters worse printing all these niche cards to counter other cards to counter other cards.  IMO keeping the core game simple is necessary because if the core game just prints a ton of cards instead of making balanced core regions, then the game is going to quickly spiral out of control into an unorganized mess.

For what it's worth, I agree that more regions and cards may dilute the individual region fantasy/theme, but that's yet another problem that Riot has set up for themselves. MTG has never added a color, and Hearthstone only just added its first new class after years and years. There's a lot of risk of diluting the design space, but oh well, Riot has been pretty clear they want to take that risk.

Here are a few ideas on how to fix elusives:

1- Make elusives cost-inefficient;
2- Elusives lose the keyword elusive after a block/attack;
3- Elusives go back to the hand after a block/attack;
4- All Elusives have 1 HP;
5- Elusives can only block other Elusives;
6- Print a new Keyword: "Ward". Ward -> The unit and adjacent units can block Elusives;
7- Print situational spells that remove the Keywords: Elusive/Fearsome/Overwhelm.
8- Print units that can steal/remove Keywords;
9- Elusives can be blocked by any unit but they don't receive combat damage from non-elusive minions.

My favorite is number 9

Quote From Hellcopter

Here are a few ideas on how to fix elusives:

1- Make elusives cost-inefficient;
2- Elusives lose the keyword elusive after a block/attack;
3- Elusives go back to the hand after a block/attack;
4- All Elusives have 1 HP;
5- Elusives can only block other Elusives;
6- Print a new Keyword: "Ward". Ward -> The unit and adjacent units can block Elusives;
7- Print situational spells that remove the Keywords: Elusive/Fearsome/Overwhelm.
8- Print units that can steal/remove Keywords;
9- Elusives can be blocked by any unit but they don't receive combat damage from non-elusive minions.

My favorite is number 9

Just wanted to comment on your ideas (I think some are good too!) Just providing my opinion on each idea.

1. Cost inefficiency can still be circumvented through buffs/handbuffs
2. Some elusives already only gain elusive for one turn.  IMO still easily circumvented
3. This would make elusives unplayable, the goal is to make an interesting mechanic not to nerf something into obscurity.
4. Interesting, this could be useful because then all the "play - deal 1 damage" effects would see more play.
5. Isn't this what we have now? I'm confused...
6. Doesn't really solve anything..."ward" would be just another word for "elusive" and end up building a deck with elusives or wards. Nothing changes.
7. Good idea but there's already a card that does this "purify".  When you pay 1 card (spell) for 1 card (minion in play) you're still down a card because they still have stats on the board.  What we need is essentially more "purify" on a stick cards. (a minion that has a stronger effect to remove buffs)
8. Kind of the same as above.  A unit that steals/removes buffs is a counter-tech card.  Minions with more counter-effects is what the game needs.
9. A good idea and probably the best out of all the ideas you listed.

Quote From Sykomyke

 

5. Isn't this what we have now? I'm confused...

Elusives cannot block non-elusive units. They can only block elusive units.

Solving the elusive mess is not a job for one person alone.
My objetive is to brainstorm some thoughts in hope someone could polish or spark new ideas to adress the issue. 
Thanks for your reply, healthy discussions like the one we are all having on this topic are a step in the right direction.

About your answer:

1. Its usually how every company deals with problematic cards other then ban. Not the best way but easy to do. 
   Buffs on elusives are strong since the stats it generates also gets the keyword elusive. This interaction will never be balanced without printing cost-effective removals or effects that "remove all text and keywords" from units.
   So yeah, i agree only changing the cost alone without the support of other cards won't solve the problem.
2. I fully agree, but at least is better then what we have now. 
3. Very likely. 
4. Yeah, its intended to make elusives weak versus AOE spells. This would greatly increase the risk of playing multiple elusives in a single deck.
5. Elusives can block any units. The new concept is that elusives could not block non-elusives. This would make pure elusive decks much weaker against other aggro decks.
6. The original idea is to spread the keyword "ward" in many different units already in the game. Its not meant to be build around it. It should be done in a way most decks would end up with 3-5 ward units on average without tech.
7. This solves the elusive problem but its very dangerous to other cards like They Who Endure.
8. Yeah. This is much better then number 7 as stealing keywords doesn't screw big followers as much;
9. Its an improvment thou is slightly iffy: the keyword would need to explain that the effect only works while attacking.

Quote From Sykomyke

Quote From Hellcopter

Here are a few ideas on how to fix elusives:



5- Elusives can only block other Elusives;
6- Print a new Keyword: "Ward". Ward -> The unit and adjacent units can block Elusives;
7- Print situational spells that remove the Keywords: Elusive/Fearsome/Overwhelm.
8- Print units that can steal/remove Keywords;
9- Elusives can be blocked by any unit but they don't receive combat damage from non-elusive minions.

My favorite is number 9

Just wanted to comment on your ideas (I think some are good too!) Just providing my opinion on each idea.

1- Make elusives cost-inefficient;

Cost inefficiency can still be circumvented through buffs/handbuffs

That's not a bad thing!  The idea isn't to break the elusive mechanic, its to force it to have some weaknesses either through inconsistency or poor matchups.  Think combos like Braum -> Take Heart and Zed -> Stand Alone: yes, they are disgusting and often game-winning when pulled off, but at least they do at least luck in getting the right cards--and even if you do pull it off, there's no guarantee that you're not just going to get punished with a Vengeance / Thermo Beam / Will of Ionia / etc.

I think currently one of the big problems with Elusives is the Stand Alone into Monk or Zed. That seems to be taking over the meta. It's patchwork until new cards come out to solve the problem, but modifying Stand Alone's mana from 3 to 4 or changing it from Burst to Fast speed could band-aid the growing problem on the ladder. The other elusive deck is good, but it's not flooding the ladder at the moment.

IDK if someone say it ultil now, but "Elusive" is exactly to "Flying" of MTG, in MTG we have "Reach" units, who are "Normal attacking" creatures, but who CAN BLOCK Flying creatures, buy they dont fly, duh. They are various in design therms (Generally they are Spiders, Giants, Marksmans, etc.) so a "Reach" unit in LOR can fit in any region no problem with a little mind in design. Also in MTG, Green mana cards have the story to be "fly-haters", with so much Reach creatures and sorcerys who are simply "Destroy/Deal X damage to a Flying creature", so, some region (In my mind, Noxus, for the lore of the jonian war) would have some/more "Elusive-hate" cards. Sorry for the bad english, greetings from Argentina!

Not sure how annoying flying creatures are in MTG, but Magic has a few saving graces:
1- All collors have flying units.
2- The creature needs to tap in order to declare an attack, so it won't be able to block next turn unless its untapped;
3- At least in my days, saved a few problematic creatures like Hypnotic Specter, flying creatures were a bit too cost-expensive in general to be abused;
4- MTG has board clear spells from T4;
5- Floodgates;
6- Ping effects.

While its true both concepts share some similarity, LoR elusives are far worse given the limited tools to play around it.