Welcome back to another round of reviews! We'll get on to reviewing the new Ashes of Outland cards in short order, but first we'd like to take a look at our brand new class!
We have a fantastic overview of Illidan's Lore if you'd like to catch up on that beforehand. Once you're all set, we can dive right in to the card ratings.
Normally we'd have opinions from various members of staff for these reviews, but for this first one, it's just me. A Basic set isn't the easiest thing to analyse, and as the head of our resident Fan Creations team I'm the closest we've got to an 'expert' on these things, I guess. I'll do my best to get to grips with how Demon Hunter's are going to function at a base level, and trust you all only to come back here if I was 100% right to shower me with praise.
He can't figure out how to use the bow, so he'll just leave it to you.
Quote From ShadowsOfSense The first of three cards to augment your hero's Attack, Shadowhoof Slayer is a decent card. The most obvious comparison would be to Elven Archer - trading some flexibility in where the damage goes and a potentially large hit to your own face for +1 Attack of its own and some interesting (but ultimately not very relevant) weapon synergies.
As a Basic card, this does its job well; it encourages you to engage with the main mechanic of the class (your hero attacking) and gives good incidental coverage for teaching players about the synergy with weapon abilities - Aldrachi Warblades, reviewed further down, is a good example of this. The first time a player finds themselves gaining even more life from the Lifesteal effect of that weapon is a valuable teaching moment, and including more cards to do so is helpful.
This will likely find its way into early aggressive Demon Hunter builds that look to rush the opponent down as quickly as possible. It's a little on the weaker side though, so depending on how aggressive they end up being this may get cut in favour of some more generally powerful cards - after all, when all it does is give you your Hero Power as a Battlecry, you can probably find time to weave in the Hero Power instead.
"What do we want?" // "More Chaos!" // "When do we want it?" // "Unexpectedly!"
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Oh, so you really want us attacking, huh?
This is a good, solid Basic card. Every class needs a little bit of draw to start them off, and this is as average as they come. Two Hero Powers worth of damage, plus a card to actually make up the mana cost, isn't a bad deal by any means. Some decks would likely rather have a body for their card draw - Novice Engineer or Loot Hoarder, as per your taste - but in a class so determined to encourage you to attack with your hero the synergies this offers are well worth the potential loss of damage over time.
Control lists which will likely run some of the more interesting weapons - Warglaives of Azzinoth, or Flamereaper - will be excited to have this option available to them. Aggressive decks may not need the extra card draw, but in the case that they do this will definitely take place over the previously mentioned minions.
It's not universally strong, but in the right decks this card can shine.
Has anyone seen her glasses?
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Now this is an interesting effect. While it'd be exciting to see Demon Hunters explore deck manipulation further - something few classes have touched upon - this feels like the Tracking analogue of the Demon Hunter's arsenal; an idea that won't show up again in the future, but is there to tease the Fan Creations world with the possibilities.
Having said that, a 2-mana 3/2 with upside is nothing to sniff at, especially when the upside is such a relevant one. Manipulating what your next draw will be can be the difference between winning and losing a game in the later stages. That it doesn't get rid of the other cards like Tracking does has both positives and negatives; while you could be stuck knowing your future draws aren't going to be of much use, it also preserves every card in your deck, making it much more viable in combo decks, or extremely late game control decks.
This is one of those fun Basic cards that pushes the boundaries a little bit. It's not anything mindblowing, but this effect finally finding its way to Hearthstone is welcome all the same.
Made from genuine Aldrachi life-steel.
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Lifesteal in the Basic set! Glad to see ya buddy, let's hope you worm your way in further in some future class touch-ups.
This is the perfect Basic card for this class. It lets you know that they're weapon users; it synergises with their Hero Power; it mitigates one of the main downsides of the class (its tendency to whittle down its own life fairly quickly). It's a lovely foil to Fiery War Axe, which could honestly do with a little nudge of its own.
This card is going to see a fair amount of play, not necessarily because it's especially strong but because Demon Hunters will need that Lifesteal desperately. I'm actually somewhat worried they'll nerf a card that doesn't need it just because the effect is so vital to the class.
One, two, three // Rushin' Illidari // Killin' all your weenies // Singin' old-school Britney
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Speaking of keywords making the Basic set, hello Rush!
A more consistent but less aggressive Unleash the Hounds. While a weaker card on the surface, they do seem to be looking to support a swarming, token-based style of gameplay for the deck - cards like Wrathscale Naga would work wonders with this card. As a standalone in the Basic set, however, this is pretty weak.
Not every Basic card needs to be something that is immediately supported there, of course - the lack of a Classic set (for now) for Demon Hunter takes away some of the overall impression one might get of a class. Pay-offs for this style of token-based gameplay would likely reside there, as there don't seem to be any here.
Overseeri, how long until the expansion launches?
Quote From ShadowsOfSense More token generation!
Now that I actually look over the rest of the cards Demon Hunter is getting, I'm not sure I agree with Blizzard's statement that this is a class with token-generation synergies. There are exactly two cards that really care about stuff like this - the previously mentioned Wrathscale Naga and Feast of Souls. Granted, they're both very strong pay-offs for that style of play, but I'm not sure that really justifies making it a core component of the class. There aren't even any buffing cards like Druid, Warlock and Paladin have!
This card itself is okay. A 3 mana 4/2 is kind of bad, but a 4 mana 6/4 + Deal 1 damage isn't too shabby, and it'd still have the potential to develop further in the future. That vision of an aggressive, maybe even Zoo-like Demon Hunter definitely wouldn't turn up its nose at this.
Nobody tell Tom about this.
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Cleave for the modern era. What a great spin on a Basic card that still feels appropriately Basic. Where the original never really saw much play outside of Arena, Soul Cleave has that all-important Lifesteal attached to it, which will be vital for Demon Hunters of all varieties to maintain a healthy life total.
This could even be worth looking at running Spell Damage minions (or at least Bloodmage Thalnos), as for every point of Spell Damage you not only get two additional damage but two additional healing as well. I expect to see this in midrange and control lists, with fringe play in more aggressive lists so long as they're not too aggressive.
Orbital chaos, synchronised.
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Wow, okay. This is a really strong Control tool, and honestly feels a little at odds with the rest of the Basic set here. Every minion you can see here can be killed by this card - there's no obvious way to utilise it that doesn't involve killing your own board. For a class which has a supposed token-generation theme running, this is… strange.
Don't get me wrong, I love this card, and I think a lot of the other cards Demon Hunters are getting could come together to form a viable Control shell for this to fit in. It just feels very out of place when compared to the rest of the cards in the Basic set. As I mentioned before, the eventual Classic set might shore up this issue by more obviously leaning into the Control game plan, but as is this just feels like a Priest or a Mage accidentally dropped their board clear and Demon Hunter picked it up on the way in.
Fire Illimental.
Quote From ShadowsOfSense This is your 'bigger' minion for the Basic set, and it's once again a very well-designed card.
The aggressive stat-line places it immediately in my mind as the high-end finisher of an aggressive deck - that Battlecry is very easy to activate and can be used to help clear the way for your minions that can attack already this turn, or to reach for that final little bump at the end. If neither is enough for the final blow, then the minion itself still demands to be dealt with.
This would likely also find a place in a more midrange deck that appreciates the Battlecry more than it dislikes the risky body. Control decks, though, will look past this one - they'd much rather run the aforementioned Chaos Nova and not have to worry about another minion of theirs getting caught in the crossfire.
Turns out the Inner Demon looks a lot like the Outer Demon.
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Well isn't this fun! We had our small support for attacking right at the start and now we end with the high-end support. The Pyroblast to Chaos Strike's Frostbolt.
While 8 damage sounds like a lot, this comes at far too high a cost for aggressive decks to take notice of it. No, this is the ultimate control tool; the only other card in the Basic set that tries to realise the potential of what Chaos Nova is promising. While useful once in a while as the final blow, this really shines when it can augment a weapon effect to create a massive swing - either increasing your life an extra 8 points, or tripling your output with a well-placed cleave.
Pyroblast nowadays only finds its way into the greediest of Mage decks, but at less mana and with so many potential synergies available to it, I'd give this a solid chance of being seen quite often.
Comments
Through the Initiate and Outland sets, DH seems to have the ability to go swarm, midrange, and maybe even control. It seems very flexible based on the meta with use of more class cards for aggro/midrange and a larger mix of big neutral taunts, etc to play a control style.
Can’t wait to see what comes out of the community after time to experiment and react to the new meta.
As a side note, this expansion both improves and hurts Warlock Galakrond as they can summon some of the new, big demons. They also have the potential to summon 4 random dormant demons. Imagine taking the time to invoke to full and getting four tokens that can’t do anything and take up space in your zoo deck for two turns!
I am a bit worried that this class will be very hard to balance for at least a month after it is released. Is everyone playing it because it is super OP? Or just because it is new? And is it bad and nobody knows it because very few people are interested in playing classes other than Demon Hunter?
No matter how powerful the class is, everyone will play it anyway. People might complain that it is oppressive and OP, but until the hype dies down a bit and other classes start seeing more play, it will be kind of hard to tell.
"I'll do my best to get to grips with how Demon Hunter's are going to function at a base level, and trust you all only to come back here if I was 100% right to shower me with praise."
I lol'd
I have a feeling that this will be a repeat of what we've seen in DoD, where cards are intentionally designed to be very strong so to poke interest in a specific class/archetype. And much like galakrond shaman, dhunter will likely see some nerfs before the 1st month is over. Just some obvious pointers to how OP the class feels;
- Demon hunters have access to the cheapest hero power in the game which pretty much guarantee 1 health minions to be unplayable against them, as the investment to rid them is so small. It also helps with their mana management. Floating mana in hearthstone is generally considered to be losing plays
- You would think a class that secures tempo with his face would therefore have trouble with dying too fast, ala rogue. Indeed demon hunter plays a tempo game very much like rogue. Unlike rogue however, they have available to them lifesteal minions/weapons, and many of them dont even seem conditional. Ashtongue Battlelord is a card that if introduced as a neutral will be an automatic staple to many classes now that Zilliax is gone. So why would dhunters, who needs to secure tempo with face, have access to this kind of stuff while rogue, zoolock and hunter sit on the sidelines and pray not to die before they're done?
- There are a variety of very very strong, close to OP levels, cards that really dont make much sense how any class bar control can deal with. Eye Beam deals 3 damage, heals for 3, and can and often will, cost nothing. I saw this in the theorycraft stream and can confirm if youve got two of this in your hand and curve 1 and 2 drops, youre never going to lose that game. Period. Couple that with Imprisoned Antaen and Priestess of Fury, and the frankly insane amount of stats all rolled up in one, Coilfang Warlord, I cant imagine how midrange dhunters gets taken down. And all those cards which I mentioned are not legendary so you get to have 2 of each in your deck.
- And if you think dhunter have too many cards that are too OP and cant decide, just build a highlander dhunter. Saw firebat play this and he only lost once the entire stream. Just to give you a glimpse of the future tier 1 of hearthstone. And he only lost to the most high rolling, cheesiest strat in hearthstone. I'll let you guys look it up yourself.
- They keep repeating that dhunters are weak to big minions and to board clears. Three classes out of 10 have unreliable board clears and only one can match tempo with dhunters in the first few turns on the game. The others simply cant develop fast enough in my opinion to even pose a threat.
Just to leave on a more positive note. Expansions not out yet, so there's plenty of room for me to be wrong here. The class is obviously going to be 80% of the meta (because its new) so hang on tight. I think its tier 1, no matter what the build.
Hey, just sharing my opinion. You are free to argue or to share yours.
And the argument that they start with less total cards than the others only truly matter in wild, and I'm commenting on standard. I think that goes without saying.
And as far as I'm concerned you can have double or triple the total number of cards but that only means you're flipping more pages. Every deck have 30 cards in them, doesnt matter if you started 6 years ago or now. Right now I'm concerned about the power level of demon hunters relative to the other classes in standard, which I think is a relevent topic of discussion. Perhaps I'm jumping the gun here, we will see about that in 10 days.
Demon Hunter has a grand total of 45 class cards, period. 45 cards for all possible archetypes and deck builds you might want to make.
After rotation, every other class will have about 70 class cards to use in Standard, for all possible archetypes and builds. This is enough for variety, and it allows bad cards to be absorbed without affecting the ability to still build a deck. If a typical percentage of DH cards were average, niche, below average, or just plain weird (every class gets a few of these kinds every expansion), they wouldn't have enough cards leftover for more than 1-2 different archetypes at the absolute best case scenario.
Given they have a bit more than half as many class cards as other classes in standard after rotation, their cards have to have a higher average quality, or the class would be essentially unplayable at its launch.
I wouldnt mind if dhunters starts out being an aggro-midrange class for the entire 3 months, to be expanded upon in later expansions. Its not like every class gets to play all four archetypes of control, midrange, aggro, and combo at any specific point in the last 6 years anyway.
Again, I would argue its not the quantity of the cards that matters in standard, its quality. It only takes a couple of cards to change how a deck plays or performs. If the quantity of cards really do matter, I dont see why team5 dont just print 10 more cards in the initiate set. They already said the classic for dhunters would probably be a mishmash anyway.
Also, lets point out now that there are certain cards that can be toned down and probably still see play. To take a few examples, Battlefiend is straight up the best 1 drop in the game at its current iteration. It would still see play even if it had 1 less attack. Eye Beam would still be playable even at 1 mana after outcast. I would still consider Coilfang Warlord in my midrange list even if it costed 9. Priestess of Fury will still be a dangerous card even at 8.
And as a bonus, I will point out that the supposed weakness of the class can only be exploited by a few classes by nature of their design. Big minions? the only card dhunters have to legitimately watch out for is Edwin VanCleef. And even then with Eye Beam being so handy at 0 mana, I'm not even sure of that. Board clear? I saw Kibler desperately mulliganing for Consecration and a 2 drop when he saw dhunters, he lost every game as paladin.
Your predictions are duly noted. Here's my prediction: within 1 week of full release, someone will have figured out an effective counter to demon hunter, and will skyrocket up the ladder to high legend due to so much of the meta being full of demon hunters. Others will also start countering DH. After another week, things will balance out to basically normal levels, and DH will have roughly the same share of the meta as any other deck.
Where did you see Kibler and Firebat playing with the new cards?
theorycraft stream. Its in their twitch video history. Happened like 3 days ago, I think.
But if you're not keen on following the 7 hr video, firebat made some kind of montage of his time with dhunter in youtube.
This class seems like it’s going to get fixed given how op it is within like one month.. honestly take a hard look at some of these cards.... it’s only the basic set
Seems to me like it is overtuned on purpose, otherwise no one would play it after a week. It is something new, i guess we'll see how big of an offender it ends up being
This doesn't involve only Basic cards, but Demon Hunter has a surprising finisher that not many people may have noticed yet. Kael'thas Sunstrider + Twin Slice + Second Slice + this Inner Demon is a 10 damage combo for merely 6 mana. It can also be 20 damage if you play second copies of the spells. Chaos Strike and others for more.
So much for Leeroy rotating and limiting Aggro's reach.
Dinosize was a thing
A 3 card combo to deal 10 damage that can be blocked by Taunt? eh .. but Kael'thas is going to open some insanity for every class, that is true. Not sure what they were thinking honestly, wouldnt be surprised if his cost was increased after a month or two
Well see....here's the thing: it's 6-mana combo.
Guess who allows you to ignore Taunt and costs 4-mana?
Yes, i know, but that is another card on top for mere 10 dmg. Yes, it is a thing that can happen and it might even happen in a deck running all these cards from time to time, but i very much doubt that it will be the finisher you strive for. But hey, maybe it will happen, who knows.
could easily be twenty damage if you build your deck around it and DH isn't exactly short on draw.
Think about it this way - imagine this with Leeroy
@Shadows - great reviews of the cards. But Sightless watcher does not work the way you suggested. It discovers a card from somewhere in the deck, then moves only that card to the top. It says nothing about your draws after that one card.