Legends of Runeterra
mobalytics tier list - yaaar too many pirates
So mobalytics has finally gotten solid meta rankings for the call of the mountain meta.
What we are seeing is that bilgewater is pretty much dominating in all it's forms
With targon only being represented in B tier.
https://lor.mobalytics.gg/meta-tier-list
The reason for this is pretty straightforward
As I had mentioned before Targon champs aren't good.
They don't present win conditions.
In fact non champ plays like jamming a spectral matron at 8 onto the scourge and buffing your whole board is better then Sol
So is just buffing everything in your board, deck, and hand by 2
Or one sided board wipes
Or double vengence
etc. etc.
The other big issue is the 3 slot, bilge water has a 3/2 that summons a 2/1 on average
Targon has a 1/2 or 2/1 that doesn't do anything
In fact grabbing a 0 mana snake is often the right play and people don't do it
Anyway I digress what do you guys think of the meta
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So mobalytics has finally gotten solid meta rankings for the call of the mountain meta.
What we are seeing is that bilgewater is pretty much dominating in all it's forms
With targon only being represented in B tier.
https://lor.mobalytics.gg/meta-tier-list
The reason for this is pretty straightforward
As I had mentioned before Targon champs aren't good.
They don't present win conditions.
In fact non champ plays like jamming a spectral matron at 8 onto the scourge and buffing your whole board is better then Sol
So is just buffing everything in your board, deck, and hand by 2
Or one sided board wipes
Or double vengence
etc. etc.
The other big issue is the 3 slot, bilge water has a 3/2 that summons a 2/1 on average
Targon has a 1/2 or 2/1 that doesn't do anything
In fact grabbing a 0 mana snake is often the right play and people don't do it
Anyway I digress what do you guys think of the meta
I don't know if the 8+ gimmick is ever going to be good and reliable. It doesn't give you good ways to make up for having dead cards early.
Unless I missed something.
This Meta seems Arrright to me. While it might be sad for some rampers that their archetype gets dunked, i really like that the meta shifted back to basically pre targon state and that the new mechanics (that are in general not my favourite) did not get too much success however: some of the newly added cards need to be kept an eye on. Especially nightfall and hyper nox+si seems very underestimated to me. Aside from that i think Taric combo is a list to be discovered since it comes with huge gameswinging plays past turn 6 what is just too slow right now but could get more effective with better control options for the early game and p&z's removal getting buffed. What is that region's identity aside of Ezreal after Invalid Deck ID getting erased from the meta.
I have been doing well with Zed so far but I am perty low rank still. I even started using a Kalista epherimal build that seems perty good.
O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
I think i said it a thousand times already but Mobalytics isn't exactly a reliable source of information.
Facts i know for sure:
1- They are again missing a top S tier deck: Vi/Ezreal. Some players at Top 10 Master rank have 60%+ winrate with it.
2- Deep monsters is very good against Aurelion Sol decks but very weak versus almost every agro deck in the meta (and there are plenty). So its ranked way higher then it should be.
3- Overwhelm Taric is stronger then many decks in that list but didn't make it for some reason.
4- The only thing holding Endure back is Hush. If Targon is not massively present at top tier spots, then Endure should also be a S tier deck.
I feel decks that are good but not very popular doen't even have a chance to show up on their radar.
Hearthstone: Me vs Firebat -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09NCE81owjo
phaseshifter- matron is pretty consistent with Targon because it also hits sisters. So you get an 8/8 fearsome a 4/3 ephemeral with lifelink and a 4/3 elusive non ephemeral that's a 3 body play. But you should mul it at the start.
General - Taric is well designed, he might need a point of health like Shen, even a small tweak like that would make him far better.
Additional Notes- Dianna needs to be a 2/3 or 3/2 otherwise as a 2/2 challenger she's literally just a bird and she's worse than Elise and Lucian
Nocturne is kind of just a skitterer so the best decks just run skitterer instead and use stalking shadows to grab a bunch, make his ability -2/2 and only be able to go off once a turn
Leona I suggest becomes a 4/4 leveling to a 5/5 so she is basically Yasao levels of good because she functions in a similar stun and swing fashion.
Not saying this will fix Targon but it would be an okay start.
I agree that Taric is well designed but he really does not need a buff, maybe he does but I don't think a health buff is a good idea. At 4 HP he's already kind of hard to deal with by certain decks, and at 5 he'd actually be really good.
I'll agree that Elise is better than Diana but for different reasons, but I can't agree that Lucian is better than Diana. Diana having Challenger is already way better than Lucian is at his base stats. Not to mention that compared to Lucian, Diana is much easier to level up. If you would buff her to a 2/3, then it'd be bad because she'd be really hard to kill because Mystic Shot won't counter her anymore. As a 3/2, she's just insane then.
Nocturne is just a finisher compared to Frenzied Skitterer who is more of a flexible tool for trading. The fact is that leveled Nocturne is a really good finisher and that he is so easy to level and some decks that don't run removal will lose to him pretty hard.
Leona's fine. A 3/5 statline is fine and making her a 4/4 is just a straight-up nerf? Like I don't get what your point is. Yasuo becoming a 4/4 is good because he was a 4/3. She doesn't have a keyword and that's alright. She's supposed to be a basic Champ, a Champ that basically isn't very overpowered but is easy to play or build around. Demacia has Garen, Freljord has Tryndamere, Ionia has Zed, SI has Thresh/Elise, PnZ has Teemo, Noxus has Darius, Bilgewater has Twisted Fate, Targon now has Leona and that's really it.
Targon's Champions may need a slight tweak but most of them (if not all) are already at a good place right now. Taric sees play, Diana sees play, Leona sees play, Aurelion Sol sees play. They're not busted but they're still very decent plays and are easy to level. It will take a bit more time to see where things really are.
Take my words with a grain of salt. I'm unranked and only play casuals lmao.
I agree with Fenrir -- all the Targon champs are seeing a high amount of play right now and none of them are outright bad, so its hard to justify any buffs this early.
The only new champ I'm really disappointed in is Nocturne. He's got a solid spot as a partner for Diana, but outside of that niche role it is really hard to build a deck for him. His Play ability is basically an inferior version of Sejuani's, his L2 passive requires multiple nightfall units which is very difficult without splashing Targon, and if you do include Targon you might as well just go back to a Diana + Nocturne build.
Sanns - So we agree nocturne sucks, and needs a buff and Taric is possible fine being just okay
Wulf - Leonna is fine, but I guess I wan't her to be better than just a fine do nothing play
Like let's talk about stun synergy that's Yasao, and ravenous flock, both things that aren't part of her kit
and we agree Elise is better than Dianna and she's free
Sol is not a bad card, I just think he's redundant in a region that can pull infinite amazing expensive plays from thin air.
At the end of the day I think the rankings and streamers general unwillingness to run this region supports this opinion.
Like if we break things down, it should be possible to build great midrange, great aggro, and great control instead these Targon archetypes are just okay
There is no necessity for nocturne to be a good Champion especially since his aggro combo archetype is already quite op without him being decent. If we nerf stygian onlooker from nightfall +2 attack to nightfall +1 attack this turn we might talk about nocturne buffs but only then...
I'm not sure how you're drawing that conclusion. Quick snapshot of top 8 LoR streamers on Twitch.tv right now:
...so literally half the top-8 are using Targon. And looking at last week's Reckoning decks: 12 out of 16 opted to use Targon in one of their decks to that tournament.
I could see your arguments working on the reasoning that play rate and win rate don't always correlate (i.e., "new toys" scenario), but in terms of overall popularity I would say Targon is close to if not the most popular region right now.
Who are half of those people other than hawktie I know him from mtg even though he has a small audience. Swim hit masters with spiders, mogwai is playing thresh gangplank. Every single player I'm running into is playing lulu or bilgewater. Like do you play the game?
I'm literally going to https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Legends%20of%20Runeterra and blindly picking the 8 streamers at the top of the page -- here's right now:
That's how I personally would objectively measure "streamers general unwillingness to run this region". I would try to avoid focusing on individual steamers, and if anything I would downplay what Swim and Mogwai are playing as they both go out of their way to not play what others are playing as part of their "brand". I also wouldn't try to tie what you personally experience to streamers' feelings -- they are 2 totally independent trails of evidence.
Again: I'm not really debating your underlying thesis about Targon being weak. I'm just trying to constructively point out that from a purely rhetorical viewpoint, there are some inconsistencies in how you're making your case. A debate coach would tell you to avoid bringing up the shaky evidence and just stick to things that clearly reinforce your argument, like the mobalytics rankings.
Thats true I should leave the knee jerk oppinions to you guys, hah lol
This thread, just like the rest of your posts about how the meta is shaping up and how you predicted it, feels like a personal vanity project. This sort of obnoxious comment demonstrates that plainly.
Due it's a forum I have far better ways to satisfy my vanity than feeding the trolls. I talk about games because I want to, I need no other reason.
It is possible to take in criticisms and perspectives on a meta-state without having to undermine anyone else's opinions/arguments here.
Where OldManSanns had provided the clearest possible outlook imaginable on streamers' 'reluctance' or 'willingness' in playing Targon decks based on the decks that they are currently playing, you leaving these sorts of reply speak volume to how much you are ignoring other people's inputs. If you aren't posting these forum posts to incite discussions about the meta to begin with, why bother making it if you are simply going to demean anybody else's opinions?
To be perfectly clear, any streamer's experience on the current expansion meta nor their play rate on any particular deck will not perfectly mirror the majority of the playerbase's experience with the game itself. We only have so much sample size to work with, after all. You may be running into a lot of Lulu or Bilgewater decks, but personally I've been facing off against a lot of Targon decks. My experience will not dictate yours, neither will yours, and neither will any streamer's experience clearly determine what is and isn't popular in the meta.
I'm not saying that Bilgewater isn't strong and that Targon's the clear cut king of the mountain in this expansion. Riptide Rex continues to be a very strong card in any Bilgewater decks, and often plays out as its finishing win condition. Targon as a region on the other hand, contain very strong stalling options such as Hush and Starshaping which can often be incredibly frustrating to play against given the context of the situation. To begin with, while Targon's champions may not necessarily be strong, they do EXCEL at the archetypes that they're supposed to incorporate themselves with. Diana performs incredibly well with Nightfall cards, and so does Leona with Daybreak cards. Taric allows for support cards to reach even greater heights, and Aurelion Sol is fantastic as a Celestial deck finisher both mechanically and thematically.
Once again, it is fine to disagree with other people on their opinions. If anything, that is what causes more in-depth and drawn out discussions over the meta which may be beneficial to everyone involved. But it'll only happen when you don't immediately resort to nonsensical lashing when someone's opinion does not align with yours.
I'm not beholden to any of you, I offer a free service giving you informative meta updates you can take it or leave it.
The reality is TF Swain is undoubtedly the best deck in the game, and any other list with Sejuani, TF, or Gangplank does just about as well.
Bilgewater is great, and It is absolutely dominating the tier lists of both the pro player variety, and mobalytics.
So all your butt hurt I spent money on this so waaah it has to be good...I just don't have time for it.
Grow up you guys.
The idea that you're providing a "free service" and that anyone who disagrees with you is just "butt hurt" over the "truth" that you're espousing is exactly the kind of vanity I'm talking about.
Targon champs not being a win condition is a wrong statement. Leveled up Aurelion Sol is unbeatable unless you kill him before he can do anything.
meister I see 10 nerds arguing over the minuitie of a forum post that barely deserved a glance. What would you call it other than buyers remorse you gigantic tool. Lolz, you guys are hilarious every response is just an indictment of how incredibly sad your life is. I pity you truthfully. Tell me I'm wrong.
You are wrong
You are wrong
Take my words with a grain of salt. I'm unranked and only play casuals lmao.