Hearthstone
Finfested Waters - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Submitted 3 years, 4 months ago by
ShadowsOfSense
Competition Theme: Finfested Waters
We're diving into the mrrglly depths this week, so look out for anything fishy!
- You must create a Murloc minion
- It's that simple - no catches or tricks, just a good old fashioned Murloc
R has a very simple request this week - more Murlocs! Let's see what you all can cook up for them.
As always, I can be reached through Discord or here on the site via PM if you have any issues to report.
Competition Phases
Here are the phases of this card design competition
- Submission Phase: Starts on Mon, Jul 19 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400). Runs until Sat, Jul 24 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400)
- Voting Phase: Starts on Sat, Jul 24 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400). Runs until Sun, Jul 25 16:00 EDT (GMT -0400)
- Finalist Phase: Starts on Sun, Jul 25 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400). Runs until Mon, Jul 26 17:00 EDT (GMT -0400)
- Winner Selected: After finalist voting concludes and we validate votes.
Discussion Thread Rules
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Competition Theme: Finfested Waters
We're diving into the mrrglly depths this week, so look out for anything fishy!
R has a very simple request this week - more Murlocs! Let's see what you all can cook up for them.
As always, I can be reached through Discord or here on the site via PM if you have any issues to report.
Competition Phases
Here are the phases of this card design competition
Discussion Thread Rules
No thread rules were added to this season. Please populate and manually edit this thread with them.
Welcome to the site!
I've had this card sitting around for a while and now there's a really good place to use it.
Thought about making it an Epic, but that meant you could play one, then destroy the first copy with the second copy to double-up on the buff with minimal damage to your board. Seemed too good. I did not specify the buff had to be Murlocs-only because I wanted Menagerie Warlock to have a chance at Marrgl as well.
Last week got busy and I forgot to submit my card. Rip. Anyway!
This week I decided to come up with a mechanic to interact with Tradeable cards, but I'm still a little unsure as to whether this is the best way to phrase the text.
-Hordaki (rhymes with Mordecai)
Check out the Tactician custom class!
Two cards I had in my gallery, slightly modified for balance.
I like Chumsayer best (mostly because I love callbacks and bad puns), but I wonder if its effect is kinda dangerous, since if your opponent doesn't have removal, it's GG. Maybe if I rise the cost (and the Attack) it won't be too bad?
Originally wanted to use the same art linkblade used, but I don't think two cards with the same art would be a good idea...
I imagine there being separate tokens for each minion type as well as one for no minion type and one for all minion types.
Although I don't expect it to be a great card outside of Murloc decks, it could also be used for stuff like Beasts and Demons(Imps) or just Token/Zoo decks in general.
I realize using a name for a non-legendary minion is unusual, so this might be a placeholder. Suggestions are welcome.
Tirion Forgrgl: He puts his fish in the Light. Thought about making a new weapon like Scalebringer using the Scales of Justice artwork and giving it an effect like Ashbringer. Made something else as this is too close to the original. Alternatively, thought about reducing all the stats in half (4-cost 3/3, Deathrattle: Equip a 3/2 Scales of Justice)
Blindlight Broodmother: Now, these numbers are very preliminary and many of them would need to be fine tuned for sure. Simple design that would make Murlocs sticky enough in Shaman that they could use some of the new Murloc support they received recently.
One of Hagatha's vile creations - You might try to kill The Wereloc but will quickly find that its curse has spread to others.
Thoughts on whether this should transform any minion, or specifically murlocs?
Feedback:
@Demonxz95 - This is an interesting idea for a card, but perhaps an unexciting one. If you've seen Mark Rosewater's talk on 20 lessons from MTG (highly recommend watching), he talks a bit about this kind of design being interesting for the designer, but falling flat with players due to the differences in "Intellectual" stimulation vs "Emotional" stimulation. At least personally I don't have that strong emotional response to the card.
@linkblade91 - Go ahead and make it an epic. We have Nofin Can Stop Us that sees little play and is effectively the same +2/+2 effect at a similar cost. I think the cost of sacrificing a minion is larger than you might think. I think for wording you may have to have "Destroy a friendly murloc to give your other minions +2/+2" as current wording would imply that you would get the effect even if you dont have a friendly murloc to destroy. An evocative card for a warlock murloc.
@Hordaki - Not too much to say here, I think this is a clean design. that helps power murloc-hungry decks.
@Wailor - I agree that chumsayer might be too polarizing in its current form. Holyfin looks good, I would run with that idea.
@AeroJulwin - Agreed on the name change, something along the lines of "{Murloc Tribe Name} Necromancer" would work well. I think specifying the type of undead (ghost, skeleton, zombie etc.) instead of saying "undead" would also make sense - see Grim Necromancer who summons specifically skeletons. Balance-wise, 3 mana 1/4 might be too slow for current design trends, you dont often have the minions to throw away for this, possibly throw an extra stat point its way?
@Lundy - I think the Blindlight Broodmother is the right direction - murlocs running away and pulling a bunch more is a time honored tradition in WoW. Personally, I would consider summoning them from your deck rather than randomly, but thats mostly a preference thing. If you're putting this into forged in the Barrens, worth considering reducing the cost slightly and making it a frenzy effect to fit the set mechanics better?
Chumsayer is fun (: I'm concerned only about rogue and stealth.
So many cool art pieces! Even after I ruled out the ones you guys & gals have already used, I ended up with three ideas:
Lil'idan is a stand alone card as of now, but if Demon Hunter would walk down the road to murglness, a strong build around legendary would definitely help.
Mechnapper is my favorite so far, a flavorful tech card that has a few juicy targets like Annoy-o-Tron, Eternium Rover, Mecharoo, Mechanical Whelp, Annoy-o-Module or Spider Bomb. I capped it at 3 because I didn't want it to be able to steal Zilliax. I might want to zoom in on the art a bit more.
The Reaper has just great art but has a strange effect for Murlocs. Then again, destroying little beings is what Reapers do.
Feedback:
I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com
Thanks for the quick feedback! I will try giving some myself later.
I changed my card. It now uses a battlecry for reliability. I wanted to keep it original, so I used the minions' bonus stats for the summon. I think it really fits in with the Murloc tribe and requires a bit of setting up first, but can result in a strong board setup.
I also discarded the minion type thing I had going on. I think with some tweaks it can be a decent card in Neutral, but we are really looking for more Murloc focused cards here.
Some feedback:
Arkasaur:
Perhaps something like: "Deathrattle: Transform a Murloc in your hand into The Wereloc. At the start of your turn, summon it." This adds board value to the effect, but requires you to have a Murloc in your hand to sacrifice for said value. (I guess that should also make it a 4-cost)
I hope you understand my train of thought now. And I hope you can use this idea or at least as a guideline.
anchorm4n:
Although I'm not normally a big fan of Tech cards (unless they're Tradable), I find Mechnapper really fits right in with the Boomsday expansion, particularly because it's a Neutral card, but I think it might not be Murlocy enough for this particular design competition.
Darktide Reaper has a nice effect that makes up for what other Murlocs might lack, but I feel like it's simply not that unique compared to the other two.
This is a murlocization of an idea of mine that made it into hearthcards' gallery. I have some doubts about stats and balance though. (golden version would give two meals)
I'm currently at work and imgur is blocked so here's feedback for people who didn't post on imgur:
@Lundy: Tirion is great for memes and the effect is very decent. It will perform well and I will def give it 5 stars.
@anchor4m: Lilidan is the best card but the stats should be changed. I'd make it a 2/4 for balance. I'd also change the name because I'm fed up with every DH card name being a variation of "Illidan"
My attempt. Just found this cute picture on Pinterest and could not resist using it, just look how kawaii that murloc is UwU. You can draw a lot of minions, from Murloc Tinyfin to 0-Cost minions from Barnabus the Stomper.
"Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me
"If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me
Feedback (excited to finally see new cards today)
Axolfin Spiritcaller seems easier to work with. In most cases, the card will just amount to being a Soul of the Murloc with a body, but I do admire the creativity.
I quite like Lil'idan Scalerage and it'll probably have a good chance of scoring good. We do already have Furious Felfin in the game and Murlocs fit the aggressive nature of Demon Hunter perfectly, so it definitely seems possible that we get at least a little bit of support for it at some point.
Mechnapper is a fine card. It took me a little while to understand the flavor but when I did (my fault as I was just slow), I thought you did a really great job on it. Darktide Reaper might be a bit OP when compared with Shadow Word: Horror, but it's not bad in concept by any means.
I am willing to take the risk. I almost exclusively play BG nowadays and I think many voters would be happy to see a BG card.
Updated the cards with some of the feedback. Will update this post with feedback when I can!
Very fast comp, wow.
New idea (along with the old one which had a better reception):
Feedback:
Mechnapper has the problem of being a tech card, which usually don't do well. Maybe if you gave it some sort of Mech synergy instead, as a way to push Menagerie decks? Dunno.
Finally, Darktide Reaper doesn't respect class identity, since its effect just screams Priest. I guess you could make it a dual card, but even then, its effect isn't very Murlocky.
Some ideas and feedback:
Feedback:
Demonxz95: The effect doesn't fit the tribe, which feature heavy aggression and board flooding.
Linkblade91: Really powerful and fitting card. The Legendary tag made it not overpower.
Wailor: Holyfin Crusader is by far the best idea. I don't get the name for Pearl Seeker since you want the Murloc, not the clam.
Cheese: Seem way overpower especially if you Golden it (which isn't hard to do since it is a Tier 2 minion and has small body, so you can just not play it for a while). This need to be Tier 3 at least.
anchorm4n: All of these aren't very good. The Demon Hunter one is way overpower in the context that it can restore A LOT of health. The Shaman one is not fitting with the class and seems more like Priest. The Neutral one is too specific as a tech card.
Akasaur: Very creative idea but seem a little too weak. I would add a Discover effect to have more chance to get rid of the card you don't want.
Feedback time:
shatterstar1998:
Wailor:
Lundy:
Neoguli:
Cheese:
AeroJulwin:
anchorm4n:
R:
Arkasaur:
linkblade91:
Demonxz95:
-Hordaki (rhymes with Mordecai)
Check out the Tactician custom class!
It's not really necessary to point out, just a cherry on top. Otherwise people will probably not focus on Murloc Tinyfin synergy."Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me
"If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me
Off of some feedback, here are some more traditional Murloc cards. I say "traditional" even though Priest is definitely not a traditional Murloc class nor is Freeze a mechanic typically seen on Murlocs (except for obviously Brrrloc).
I was initially hesitant to post Shoreline Gatherer when I noticed that Wailor already used the art after I already made it (and there had been no duplicate arts so far), but then I realized that people using the same art is probably just going to happen anyway.
Lundy:
Ruler of the Multiverse, Lord of Time, The Twentieth Century belongs to Kang!
Not sure what's better - from hand or from deck?
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the feedback, I've updated The Wereloc from a few of the suggestions, with 2 versions:
The design intention was towards converting low-stat murlocs into more considerable threats in the mid-game, so I've switched it to only transform murlocs. Allowing for decks that run early-game murlocs and midgame non-murloc threats. As to the Rush mechanic, I'm concerned that it would give aggressive shaman decks too easy a chance to switch into a burst-damage gameplan by heavily stalling the board (that may not necessarily be a bad design result however). Thoughts?
Edit Re Anchorm4n below: Ringmaster's Baton, Farraki Battleaxe, Dragonrider Talritha don't include 'random' largely for text-box niceness, which is relevant enough here that I'm happy to exlude it, especially for the Rush version. of course it should normally be included.
More Feedback:
@anchorm4n Lili'idan: A little close to Kayn's design for my liking. Mechnapper: I like, though I question how effective it would be at 4 mana as a tech card. Darktide Reaper: Unusual for a Murloc, a possibly decent control tool, but I'm not sure thats a positive in this case as it results in clear anti-synergy with other murlocs Unsure on this one.
@AeroJulwin Axolfin: I think this effect (or at least its wording) is probably too confusing to track in game. Overall I think the previous Necromancer is a more workable design.
@Cheese I wont repeat the concerns about Battlegrounds cards, and I'm not an expect BG player myself, so take my balance suggestions with a grain of salt: I think it should probably sit at tier 3/4 with a higher statline. +3/+3 can stack up quickly, and typically murloc builds want to quickly turn their early-game murlocs into large threats anyway - What this means is that you arent usually buying murlocs for their bodies anyway, and this buff is just better in most circumstances. Tier3/4 puts this into a tier where you're more likely to be at a stage of the game where you're looking for this effect in particular.
@Neoguli Nice simple design, balance is great. Flavour is hard to judge without knowing the "set" that would existing around it, could be better on that front if you want it to hit home as a standalone card.
@Wailor Holyfin Crusader is a bit more interesting - stick with it I think.
@shatterstar1998 I like the Vilefin Spawner with the 1/1's. Though I think you could probably just summon the 1/1 if you want to be more direct. The flavour of it could use some improvement, the link between "Vilefin Spawner" and tradeable that generates murlocs isn't thematically clear.
@Demonxz95 I really like Shoreline Gatherer: meets a good ground between interesting mechanical twist on murlocs and suiting the class/tribe/flavour of Murloc oracles etc. I'd limit the effect to when friendly characters are healed however; same reasoning as to the old Eaglehorn Bow change. And yes, keeping that art should be fine.
@R I like cunning Tidehunter - fits well into what Murlocs do and can serve as a nice board refill tool for those decks. Might be possible to just check for other Murlocs, to give it a bit of an easier time in the inevitable shaman and paladin decks it'll end up it.
Thank you all for your feedback! While the majority seems to prefer Lil'idan, I feel way more comfortable with Mechnapper. The flavor wasn't immediately clear to everyone, so I've zoomed in on the art, that hopefully helps. Now I'd be very grateful for some help with the balance. Some of you said it's too weak and wouldn't see play, so I made another version that steals a Mech with up to 3 Attack. Which one is better? Any other ideas regarding the stats? Should it be cheaper?
Looks like Zilliax makes the whole difference, but that card was run in nearly every deck as long as it was in Standard, so yeah, maybe it's worth it to go to 3 Attack.
More Feedback:
I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com
I'm dead set on trying a BG card for this theme. For science.
Still not sure at which tier I should put it.
I must also add that the meal gives +3/+3 to ANY minion. When you play Cookie, you're definitely NOT playing murloc. Also, one precision: If you buy the 3rd copy of a murloc it will still become golden and not turn into a meal since the text on Cookie says "after".
Alright, we're a few versions in, but I think this is the final result. Although I think the enchantment mechanic fits Murlocs because they focus on buffing each other, it ultimately proofed too complex, so I removed it. I did keep the Battlecry for reliability and to prevent a boardwipe using Lushwater Scout.
I added the Stealth effect for several reasons. For starters I didn't want it to just be a Soul of the Murloc with a body, so I wanted to add something extra. Because I originally designed the card for board sustain, Stealth seemed like the obvious choice. As a happy coincidence it also fits the flavor.
Although it's clearly better than Soul of the Murloc, I think keeping it a Rare card should be fine considering it is exclusive to Murlocs whereas Soul of the Murloc targets all friendly minions.
People seem to like my first idea a lot more. So I decided to focus on that. Change the name to Vilefin Trafficker to get the idea of Tradeable coming more across:
Feedback to cards since my last post:
Demonxz95: Both of them are quite creative. I think the first Murloc should be a Mage card to fit in with the Freeze synergy and the potential power level.
R: The from hand effect is fine. From deck is just too powerful of a comeback tool and if you do you should increase the cost to 5.
Cheese: The new version with Tier 3 seem fine. Fit great in mid range playstyle.
Aero Juwin: The card seem fine but would be super annoying and doesn't fit with Murloc at all since they are supposed to have little guard against board clear.
Just as a reminder so we're all clear, I HATE Murlocs. They're quintessential stupid aggro bullshit wrapped in an ugly fish-frog skin. With that bias in mind, let's begin:
shatterstar1998 - I like the idea of using Tradeable, even though it doesn't feel like something you "trade" or have to do with trading/merchants in general. The name-change helps in that regard, at least. "Discover a Murloc" is more powerful than the Tinyfin, of course, but I still feel like it might be the way to go. For flavor and power reasons: spending 1 mana to cycle a card means you're not spending the mana to build your board and go face, so the payoff has to be worth it.
AeroJulwin - Soul of the Murloc aside, Murlocs are supposed to be weak to clearing. Ignoring that for a moment, something else is that the Ghosts are not Murlocs, which the deck won't appreciate because it wants to stay "in tribe" for synergies and the like. If we want to forcibly yank the tribe away from its aggressive tendencies into something different then I'm all for it; I just don't think this is the way to go about that.
Cheese - When I first saw your card I was concerned with it being Tier 2, so updating it to Tier 3 or 4 is a step in the right direction in my opinion. I think Tier 3 might be okay. It's weird that you would be essentially playing any-other tribe beyond Murlocs, and just using Cookie's effect to buff your Dragons/Eles/whatever, but it's still interesting. For science!
anchorm4n - I say "YOLO, let it steal Zilliax!" Not sure if this should exist in the same expansion as E.M.P. Operative with regards to Mech-hate, but it's not the worst thing. It can also steal a SN1P-SN4P played straight, by the way. I will say though that this is a Murloc in flavor only and that might hurt you. It doesn't have to be a Murloc at all; it just happens to be one.
Arkasaur - Frankly, I think the non-Rush version is too boring. You're just making "vanilla" 4/3s; there's got to be more utility than that to warrant being an effective Legendary. I've also seen this art + name + effect like four separate times in my card-making "career", so something to keep in mind I guess.
R - With some tweaking of the flavor, you could shift the Cunning Tidehunter to Kobolds & Catacombs and incorporate Recruit. Might be worth a consideration *shrugs* Not to say it's bad as-is or anything like that; I just think the flavor is lackluster.
Demonxz95 - I shudder to think of Murlocs expanding out to Priest, of all things. Healing in said deck would also be super weird, but I applaud the dramatic reversal of "the Murloc way" (i.e: Aggro), so maybe the originality will benefit you. I really don't like Glacier Crystalfin because the Murloc aspect feels tacked-on: it's a Freeze-related card that happens to be a Murloc.
Wailor - I would just stick with Holyfin Crusader. The art makes perfect sense with the class, and it just…works.
Lundy - Tirion Forgrgl is a meme; some people will like that, and some people will very much not. I prefer the Broodmother because it's "an actual card" and not a gimmick. Cost feels really high, but not sure how to tone it down.
Neoguli - I'm sure someone would find a way to break it when more deck cost-reduction cards come into existence. If it could draw 1-Cost cards you could pair it with Spirit of the Dead and its ilk, or just to draw the other Seashore Tinyfin. Don't know if that would pull too far away from your "kawaii" intentions, though :P
Hordaki - I like the Merchant because it pushes you to build your deck differently. You can't just go all-Murlocs-all-day; you would need to incorporate Tradeable cards. I think the text is fine as-is :)
I changed my Warlock card to an Epic and made it say "to (do X)" to make sure that a Murloc is destroyed for the board-buff. I tried to fit the text on three lines but it doesn't look good. For your consideration, I also included two new cards based on the art I found in my stash:
Murlocs too small to push through that Taunt? Want to double-up after all your Murlocs attacked? Suddenly feel like going tall after you built that wide board? Franken-Mrrgl has got you covered. Maybe he should say "to gain their stats" instead of just +3/+3.
Inquiring Shock-Fin doesn't need to be a Murloc, to be fair. The Rush is implied to be from the shock-stick in its hand, probing them lol. Name could stand to be better.
I've actually been slowly trying to make a Murloc expansion so this I've got a few ideas
Just looking for some feedback.
Ruler of the Multiverse, Lord of Time, The Twentieth Century belongs to Kang!
In my opinion, you can't have both effects at the same time on a single card. Either have the face damage, or have the free Murlocs; both makes the card self-sufficient after the first death. You just loop the 1/1s repeatedly for board clearing and face damage, which is simply too much. It's that or it definitely needs to be a Legendary, but even then...
Then I'll make it 3 mana with just the face damage effect.
Ruler of the Multiverse, Lord of Time, The Twentieth Century belongs to Kang!
Ruler of the Multiverse, Lord of Time, The Twentieth Century belongs to Kang!
I already posted Holyfin Crusader, but I droped the Divine Shield on the main body as Hordaki suggested bc it seemed a bit too strong.
Anyways, more feedback:
About your cards, I think Glacier Crystalfin is my favorite, but both the artwork and the effect scream Shaman to me. You could even put it in Knights of the Frozen Throne, since that expansion featured both Freeze and Murloc synergy for Shaman.
On the one hand, it is very good on Lightfang builds, because it allows you to spend gold without needing a free slot, which is something these builds tend to struggle with.
On the other hand, it's completely unplayable in most Murloc builds, because it doesn't allow you to use their Battlecries, which is the build strenght.
All in all, I'd say Tavern Three is more appropriate, but it's really hard to tell.
Gillidari Avenger is also neat, but it would need more support than it currently has, so maybe some people punish that a little bit.
The other two cards have neat effect (especially Tinyfin, the Unkillable, although the artwork is too blurry), but I don't see the need for them to be Murlocs.
Went with Franken-Mrrgl; thank you Wailor. I will blame you if I lose lol :)
I hate Murlocs, so submitting a card that destroys your Murlocs seems on point.
Feedback time while the reveals are paused. Glacier Crystalfin seems to be the popular choice, so I think I'll go with that one. I kinda want to keep it Neutral though (specifically if I put it in KotFT as Shaman having both it and Brrrloc in the same set would be a little bit weird). Skipping a few people who have already submitted if I don't have anything to add to the discussion.
Zooming in on the art actually does help with the flavor. Pretty smart thinking!
I do think it's perhaps a bit too "on the nose" in terms of being a Zilliax counter, but I think the flavor alone will have a good chance of carrying you forward.
Tinyfin, the Unkillable has some funny flavor, but the artwork is too pixelated and is obviously a zoomed-in version of Tinyfin's Caravan.
Gillidari Avenger is definitely my favorite of the bunch, though suiciding Murlocs for a measly +1 Attack boost per Murloc is usually not going to do as much damage as simply just using them to attack face instead. Thus, I think it renders the card a bit situational.
Mushfin Murloc and Mana Murloc I'm unfortunately not a big fan of. The former doesn't feel like a Choose One design that would be printed and I think it's a bit that one choice is basically just Coldlight Oracle, and the latter feels too cluttered in different effects of which not all of them feel very Druid-like.
I think I really need to work on giving feedback more often because a lot of people submit and then I have something else to add to the cards they made.
So, uh, I failed my submission and submitted my tier 4 version of Cookie instead of the tier 3 one. When you vote on it please vote as if it were a 2/3 T3.
Good luck to all finalists! I have finally earned the privilege to name myself one after so many years of absence.
Yeah, I won one r/customhearthstone weekly contest. So my trophy case isn't empty. :D
"Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me
"If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me
Good luck to all the finalists!
I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com
Mrgllll glrrm gl!
Congratulations to Arkasaur!
Congrats, Arkasaur!
-Hordaki (rhymes with Mordecai)
Check out the Tactician custom class!
Congrats Arkasaur! Surely the most flavorful card of the week :)
I notice I am confused. Something I believe isn't true. How do I know what I think I know?
Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, hpmor.com