Nerf Predictions for Festival of Legends

I know it's only the second day, but with the fervor of people playing the new decks is all over the place.  I can already see problematic cards coming to the table and I am curious as to what other think.  

KEEP IN MIND this is not throwing salt around, this is just the community responding to what R&D missed. 

I'll got first, Kangor, Dancing King needs to be nerfed.  I did a Twisting Nether twice to try and keep it from going back to my opponent's hand and continue giving them more and more lifesteal minions.  There is something overlooked on this minion.  A good nerf for this would be it can only come back to your hand if there is a minion in it.  If there is a situation where you have no cards in hand... it still goes back there.  Unless everyone is packing Silence of some kind or Sylvanas, the Accused in every deck.  It is brutal.  What about anyone else?

Sounds like you dealing with a bug coz Kangor doesn't go back to hand if there's no minions in hand, at least that how I've experienced games.

Personally Kangor doesn't bother me but I've only played against it twice so not enough data to make an objective opinion. 

Right now I'm only struggling against already refined decks like Frost DK coz they lost nothing. Aggro Pure Paladin is also a pain coz I feel the deck just got better. At the time of writing, Paladin is no. 1 but the best deck isn't running Kangor.

As for nerfs, it's tough to say what exactly is a problem as the meta is still quite fresh so I'll give some card opinions in the next week or so.

If it were up to me its most likely DK cards need some looking at. Frost aggro and unholy can easily pick apart most decks but I feel the biggest problem here is that I can't see it ever changing its list, or gets weaker than aggro decks from other classes. Not sure this is where team5 wants the class to go.

Meanwhile blood DK changes like 5 cards max and is still currently the best old-school control deck around, and I can't see it ever be topped. I mean, 2 mana gain 10 health + draw a card. What other control deck can top cards like that. Blood DK is practically what odd warrior was doing in its time.

For starters, we can look into reverting buff for Battlefield Necromancer, and cards like Vampiric Blood, Plague Strike, Frostwyrm's Fury.

We can disagree about the candidates from nerfs, but whatever it is it'll likely be from DK.

Just a comment on your quip with kangor. Cant say I agree, mostly because I havent really been seeing much kangor decks. But from the little Ive seen, most aggro decks can easily wipe that deck way before turn 6 and control dont really have any issues with leaving kangor up for a few turns.

Its in the same vein as chadlock, draw the nuts and you're likely going to win. But miss even one AoE along the way and you're practically dead to aggro, which incidentally is nearly everywhere. Its a good deck, but not oppressively good.

Quote From Caro

Sounds like you dealing with a bug coz Kangor doesn't go back to hand if there's no minions in hand, at least that how I've experienced games.

Personally Kangor doesn't bother me but I've only played against it twice so not enough data to make an objective opinion. 

Right now I'm only struggling against already refined decks like Frost DK coz they lost nothing. Aggro Pure Paladin is also a pain coz I feel the deck just got better. At the time of writing, Paladin is no. 1 but the best deck isn't running Kangor.

As for nerfs, it's tough to say what exactly is a problem as the meta is still quite fresh so I'll give some card opinions in the next week or so.

I think you're right.  I did Twisting Nether because my opponent's hand was empty.. but it went back anyway.  That DOES sound like a bud since it's text specifically calls out "SWAP". 

That being said, it is still super annoying to continually pump out lifestealing minions that preserve the mid-end game and allows them to get set up for the combo/control fight

Quote From dapperdog

If it were up to me its most likely DK cards need some looking at. Frost aggro and unholy can easily pick apart most decks but I feel the biggest problem here is that I can't see it ever changing its list, or gets weaker than aggro decks from other classes. Not sure this is where team5 wants the class to go.

Meanwhile blood DK changes like 5 cards max and is still currently the best old-school control deck around, and I can't see it ever be topped. I mean, 2 mana gain 10 health + draw a card. What other control deck can top cards like that. Blood DK is practically what odd warrior was doing in its time.

 

For starters, we can look into reverting buff for Battlefield Necromancer, and cards like Vampiric Blood, Plague Strike, Frostwyrm's Fury.

We can disagree about the candidates from nerfs, but whatever it is it'll likely be from DK.

 

Just a comment on your quip with kangor. Cant say I agree, mostly because I havent really been seeing much kangor decks. But from the little Ive seen, most aggro decks can easily wipe that deck way before turn 6 and control dont really have any issues with leaving kangor up for a few turns.

Its in the same vein as chadlock, draw the nuts and you're likely going to win. But miss even one AoE along the way and you're practically dead to aggro, which incidentally is nearly everywhere. Its a good deck, but not oppressively good.

I totally get the DK decks being frustrating.  I think that comes mostly from the fact that because DK is still new, it didn't lose anything of value with the rotation.  It still has it's core cards along with all the new things it gets to play with.  I went to "update" my Even DK and there wasn't much to be added... in fact, I added nothing so far from Festival. 

For DK I am sure that it will be so oppressive while the meta is leveling out after the rotation that Team 5 will HAVE to do something about it.

I mean for me, while I don't think the deck is winning hard against anyone else most likely, hero power druid is basically an instant loss if you play anything resembling control. They gain so much life that you can't actually work through their armor, and they do it while slamming your face and/or removing any threat you put on the board. I would not be surprised if the deck loses to a lot of the top dogs in the meta but for my shitty Tess rogue and things like it, I don't know how to handle the amount of armor and damage they get entirely for free every turn.

Quote From Topandito

I mean for me, while I don't think the deck is winning hard against anyone else most likely, hero power druid is basically an instant loss if you play anything resembling control. They gain so much life that you can't actually work through their armor, and they do it while slamming your face and/or removing any threat you put on the board. I would not be surprised if the deck loses to a lot of the top dogs in the meta but for my shitty Tess rogue and things like it, I don't know how to handle the amount of armor and damage they get entirely for free every turn.

I'd imagine the armor and attack minions will get the deathrattle removed to keep it from being over abused by Unending Swarm.  Because of the ability to pull all 4 of those beasts out, have them die, then bring them back 2 more times making your armor and attach gain from the Hero Power too dominating. 

I totally agree that something should be done about that. 

Hero power Druid has a sub 40% win rate, I would be very surprised to see it nerfed 

Quote From Hydrafrog

Quote From Caro

Sounds like you dealing with a bug coz Kangor doesn't go back to hand if there's no minions in hand, at least that how I've experienced games.

Personally Kangor doesn't bother me but I've only played against it twice so not enough data to make an objective opinion. 

Right now I'm only struggling against already refined decks like Frost DK coz they lost nothing. Aggro Pure Paladin is also a pain coz I feel the deck just got better. At the time of writing, Paladin is no. 1 but the best deck isn't running Kangor.

As for nerfs, it's tough to say what exactly is a problem as the meta is still quite fresh so I'll give some card opinions in the next week or so.

I think you're right.  I did Twisting Nether because my opponent's hand was empty.. but it went back anyway.  That DOES sound like a bud since it's text specifically calls out "SWAP". 

That being said, it is still super annoying to continually pump out lifestealing minions that preserve the mid-end game and allows them to get set up for the combo/control fight

Kangor is legendary and paladin does not have a decent way to tutor it out, so this is most like a bad luck from your side. Also, a 5 mana 3/3 is not that threatening

Quote From KnivesOut

Hero power Druid has a sub 40% win rate, I would be very surprised to see it nerfed

Yea agreed, I played HP druid a couple times and lost all my games, it's a trash deck and the current win rate on HSReplay reflects that.

The devs hear you, so they went ahead and nerfed one DK card, one DH card, and one Paladin card. Fixed, lol! 

… Kangor? Really?

Paladin literally does nothing for 5 turns and if you can’t kill it by then, you’re playing a control deck… in which case just remove all of his big stuff. Kangor is 1 card in the whole deck and it falls apart completely if you can’t draw him lol, there are definitelt way worse offenders all things considered like Outcast D

Ok I've been laddering with a Shadow Priest deck using a few of the new cards in it like Fight Over Me, a total 5 star card in my opinion BTW, and Ghost Writer, another amazing card with Finale, and I encountered another Paladin deck with Kangor in it... 

I HAVE to double down on this... I had my opponent to 4 cards in their deck and 3 life with a minion on deck.. I couldn't draw a silence effect for my life... Even with Ghost Writer getting me cards, I was able to get an Identity Theft, but nothing that could have helped me with that little prick. 

Then he walked his Kangor dirtbag into one of my minions and had Ragnaros the Firelord and The Leviathan in hand... I had him dead in the water and I couldn't navigate that stupid Kangor, Dancing King.  If you don't have something to Hex, Silence, or steal him then it's just a complete game turner.

Mock all you want, but this deck my opponent was playing was able to stop my aggro onslaught for several turns.  I had great momentum, he hadn't been able to get anything through, all my deathrattles were tearing them apart... and then kangor came in.... 

Quote From Hydrafrog

Ok I've been laddering with a Shadow Priest deck using a few of the new cards in it like Fight Over Me, a total 5 star card in my opinion BTW, and Ghost Writer, another amazing card with Finale, and I encountered another Paladin deck with Kangor in it... 

I HAVE to double down on this... I had my opponent to 4 cards in their deck and 3 life with a minion on deck.. I couldn't draw a silence effect for my life... Even with Ghost Writer getting me cards, I was able to get an Identity Theft, but nothing that could have helped me with that little prick. 

Then he walked his Kangor dirtbag into one of my minions and had Ragnaros the Firelord and The Leviathan in hand... I had him dead in the water and I couldn't navigate that stupid Kangor, Dancing King.  If you don't have something to Hex, Silence, or steal him then it's just a complete game turner.

Mock all you want, but this deck my opponent was playing was able to stop my aggro onslaught for several turns.  I had great momentum, he hadn't been able to get anything through, all my deathrattles were tearing them apart... and then kangor came in.... 

Pretty sure that priest list runs 2x Shard of the Naaru meaning you're either very unlucky or your list bizarrely doesn't run those things.

Yes, its a game turner, like Amorphous Slime and Infantry Reanimator in chadlock, but those decks are also not power outliers and are rarely seen on ladder (from my experience). For team5 to move against a card they'll need to be both very powerful or very much present on ladder. If on the metric of toxicity alone, druid would simply cease to exist.

Quote From dapperdog

Quote From Hydrafrog

Ok I've been laddering with a Shadow Priest deck using a few of the new cards in it like Fight Over Me, a total 5 star card in my opinion BTW, and Ghost Writer, another amazing card with Finale, and I encountered another Paladin deck with Kangor in it... 

I HAVE to double down on this... I had my opponent to 4 cards in their deck and 3 life with a minion on deck.. I couldn't draw a silence effect for my life... Even with Ghost Writer getting me cards, I was able to get an Identity Theft, but nothing that could have helped me with that little prick. 

Then he walked his Kangor dirtbag into one of my minions and had Ragnaros the Firelord and The Leviathan in hand... I had him dead in the water and I couldn't navigate that stupid Kangor, Dancing King.  If you don't have something to Hex, Silence, or steal him then it's just a complete game turner.

Mock all you want, but this deck my opponent was playing was able to stop my aggro onslaught for several turns.  I had great momentum, he hadn't been able to get anything through, all my deathrattles were tearing them apart... and then kangor came in.... 

Pretty sure that priest list runs 2x Shard of the Naaru meaning you're either very unlucky or your list bizarrely doesn't run those things.

Yes, its a game turner, like Amorphous Slime and Infantry Reanimator in chadlock, but those decks are also not power outliers and are rarely seen on ladder (from my experience). For team5 to move against a card they'll need to be both very powerful or very much present on ladder. If on the metric of toxicity alone, druid would simply cease to exist.

I'm assuming when someone plays Shadow Priest, they're including Darkbishop Benedictus which makes getting silence a bit difficult but I always include a Shard of the Naaru in my E.T.C., Band Manager now.

Quote From dapperdog

Quote From Hydrafrog

Ok I've been laddering with a Shadow Priest deck using a few of the new cards in it like Fight Over Me, a total 5 star card in my opinion BTW, and Ghost Writer, another amazing card with Finale, and I encountered another Paladin deck with Kangor in it... 

I HAVE to double down on this... I had my opponent to 4 cards in their deck and 3 life with a minion on deck.. I couldn't draw a silence effect for my life... Even with Ghost Writer getting me cards, I was able to get an Identity Theft, but nothing that could have helped me with that little prick. 

Then he walked his Kangor dirtbag into one of my minions and had Ragnaros the Firelord and The Leviathan in hand... I had him dead in the water and I couldn't navigate that stupid Kangor, Dancing King.  If you don't have something to Hex, Silence, or steal him then it's just a complete game turner.

Mock all you want, but this deck my opponent was playing was able to stop my aggro onslaught for several turns.  I had great momentum, he hadn't been able to get anything through, all my deathrattles were tearing them apart... and then kangor came in.... 

Pretty sure that priest list runs 2x Shard of the Naaru meaning you're either very unlucky or your list bizarrely doesn't run those things.

Yes, its a game turner, like Amorphous Slime and Infantry Reanimator in chadlock, but those decks are also not power outliers and are rarely seen on ladder (from my experience). For team5 to move against a card they'll need to be both very powerful or very much present on ladder. If on the metric of toxicity alone, druid would simply cease to exist.

I'm running Benedictus, so no Shard.  Faster, but when it comes to cards like Kangor, I get stuck unless I want to splash in Smothering Starfish, which isn't a bad idea... but then it means I'll need to shift it around. 

I went from Bronze to Platinum with my pure shadow build, so I'd be hesitant to shift to the stuff from what I'm doing especially since I own Blood DK... which totally makes me happy since the meta is covered in that... we at least what I am running into.

Can't be sure what Blizzard thinks will make the game 'healthy' but in wild, I would certainly recommend the below adjustments to make the meta less stale and oppressive:

Twig of the World Tree - 6 mana, 3 durability; (slow the rate of the obvious T4-5 mana cheat)

Swordfish - 2/2, buff weapon and minion +1 attack; (currently Swordfish is too strong given how consistently it is tutored)

Cavern Shinyfinder - Combo: Draw a Weapon; 

Illuminate - If it's a holy spell reduce by (2) mana; (reduce the Big Priest spell fishing for T3 Neptulon pulls)

Neptulon's Hand - Cannot attack; (can only attack when Neptulon does; not as individual units)

Clownfish - Your next Murloc costs (2) less; (reduce the huge swing turns from Murloc Shaman)

Time Warp - The next turn is yours; (no longer an EXTRA turn- non stackable)

Prince Renathal - 40HP; (agro is just too dominant)

Anonymous Informant - 3 mana;

Contract Conjurer - Costs (2) less for every secret you control.

Highly doubt any changes other than Twig will occur, however.

Quote From Hydrafrog

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Quote From dapperdog

Quote From Hydrafrog

Ok I've been laddering with a Shadow Priest deck using a few of the new cards in it like Fight Over Me, a total 5 star card in my opinion BTW, and Ghost Writer, another amazing card with Finale, and I encountered another Paladin deck with Kangor in it… 

I HAVE to double down on this… I had my opponent to 4 cards in their deck and 3 life with a minion on deck.. I couldn't draw a silence effect for my life… Even with Ghost Writer getting me cards, I was able to get an Identity Theft, but nothing that could have helped me with that little prick. 

Then he walked his Kangor dirtbag into one of my minions and had Ragnaros the Firelord and The Leviathan in hand… I had him dead in the water and I couldn't navigate that stupid Kangor, Dancing King.  If you don't have something to Hex, Silence, or steal him then it's just a complete game turner.

Mock all you want, but this deck my opponent was playing was able to stop my aggro onslaught for several turns.  I had great momentum, he hadn't been able to get anything through, all my deathrattles were tearing them apart… and then kangor came in…. 

Pretty sure that priest list runs 2x Shard of the Naaru meaning you're either very unlucky or your list bizarrely doesn't run those things.

Yes, its a game turner, like Amorphous Slime and Infantry Reanimator in chadlock, but those decks are also not power outliers and are rarely seen on ladder (from my experience). For team5 to move against a card they'll need to be both very powerful or very much present on ladder. If on the metric of toxicity alone, druid would simply cease to exist.

I'm running Benedictus, so no Shard.  Faster, but when it comes to cards like Kangor, I get stuck unless I want to splash in Smothering Starfish, which isn't a bad idea… but then it means I'll need to shift it around. 

 

I went from Bronze to Platinum with my pure shadow build, so I'd be hesitant to shift to the stuff from what I'm doing especially since I own Blood DK… which totally makes me happy since the meta is covered in that… we at least what I am running into.

I must have misread, thought you were playing control priest.

Probably not worth playing starfish just because of kangor. Its just a deck that seen only on the fridges. I'd play theotar over starfish, because at least it helps against druid as well.

Quote From Pezman

Is anyone else sick of Lightshow? Every mage I fight seems to draw both copies of this, plus double Rewind followed by Commander Sivara. Or they discover extra copies off Vast Wisdom. That's a fricking ridiculous amount of damage.

You're either running control or you're severely unlucky because Ive not seen a single lightshow mage that actually manages anywhere near a good game. Most of the time I'll have won ages before they get anywhere.

At least you can rest easy knowing that that deck is fairly shit overall against most other decks. Aggro mage remains the best mage around...because Frozen Touch is simply broken, leagues ahead of Lightshow

Quote From Dunyil

Can't be sure what Blizzard thinks will make the game 'healthy' but in wild, I would certainly recommend the below adjustments to make the meta less stale and oppressive:

 

Twig of the World Tree - 6 mana, 3 durability; (slow the rate of the obvious T4-5 mana cheat)

Swordfish - 2/2, buff weapon and minion +1 attack; (currently Swordfish is too strong given how consistently it is tutored)

Cavern Shinyfinder - Combo: Draw a Weapon; 

Illuminate - If it's a holy spell reduce by (2) mana; (reduce the Big Priest spell fishing for T3 Neptulon pulls)

Neptulon's Hand - Cannot attack; (can only attack when Neptulon does; not as individual units)

Clownfish - Your next Murloc costs (2) less; (reduce the huge swing turns from Murloc Shaman)

Time Warp - The next turn is yours; (no longer an EXTRA turn- non stackable)

Prince Renathal - 40HP; (agro is just too dominant)

Anonymous Informant - 3 mana;

Contract Conjurer - Costs (2) less for every secret you control.

 

Highly doubt any changes other than Twig will occur, however.

While I agree on most of these cards, Twig needs to be redesigned to refresh mana crystals instead of give you 10 mana. Most times twig is broken with Sphere of Sapience so the durability on the weapon doesn't matter.

I have been trying all week to make a Lightshow deck work but it ended up with a very low curve because mage has awful survival tools at the moment, and Lightshow wrecks late-game strategies. The Lightshow version is better against blood dk but worse against everything else. Both versions are so heavily dependent on drawing one card though (Frozen Touch or Lightshow).

Quote From Melliflue

I have been trying all week to make a Lightshow deck work but it ended up with a very low curve because mage has awful survival tools at the moment, and Lightshow wrecks late-game strategies. The Lightshow version is better against blood dk but worse against everything else. Both versions are so heavily dependent on drawing one card though (Frozen Touch or Lightshow).

I've been trying to figure out some way to get Lightshow to work, but without Commander Sivara, I don't even know how to get it to trigger enough to get the accomplishment

Quote From Pezman

Is anyone else sick of Lightshow? Every mage I fight seems to draw both copies of this, plus double Rewind followed by Commander Sivara. Or they discover extra copies off Vast Wisdom. That's a fricking ridiculous amount of damage.

I've not encountered it.  I keep seeing people try Lightshow, but I'm playing aggro to finish out the month so maybe I'm not giving them enough time to ramp into it

Quote From Hydrafrog

Quote From Melliflue

I have been trying all week to make a Lightshow deck work but it ended up with a very low curve because mage has awful survival tools at the moment, and Lightshow wrecks late-game strategies. The Lightshow version is better against blood dk but worse against everything else. Both versions are so heavily dependent on drawing one card though (Frozen Touch or Lightshow).

I've been trying to figure out some way to get Lightshow to work, but without Commander Sivara, I don't even know how to get it to trigger enough to get the accomplishment

I've rarely got Commander Sivara to work. (I also cut Audio Splitter.) Most of the time my additional copies of Lightshow are created by Volume Up or Rewind. With spell damage from Silvermoon Arcanist or Aegwynn I have not needed more than 4 or 5 copies of Lightshow.

It is far more common to die before then though.

Playing against Blood DK makes me want to eat my shoe. It is such a boring matchup no matter what deck you are using. They discover multiple copies of the exact card they need from a very limited pool of cards. +40 health with Vampiric Blood? No problem. 3-4 straight Frostwyrm's Fury? No problem either. Build a board, have it destroyed and rebuild? Enjoy an endless stream of Corpse Explosion, Blood Boil or Soulstealer. 

Believe me, I enjoy a good control deck! But, could you imagine if old Control Warrior could generate 4+ copies of Brawl, Grommash Hellscream, Sylvanas Windrunner, you get the gist xD

Quote From KnivesOut

Playing against Blood DK makes me want to eat my shoe. It is such a boring matchup no matter what deck you are using. They discover multiple copies of the exact card they need from a very limited pool of cards. +40 health with Vampiric Blood? No problem. 3-4 straight Frostwyrm's Fury? No problem either. Build a board, have it destroyed and rebuild? Enjoy an endless stream of Corpse Explosion, Blood Boil or Soulstealer. 

I've never got Frostwyrm's Fury playing my blood DK.  How did that work?

Quote From KnivesOut

Believe me, I enjoy a good control deck! But, could you imagine if old Control Warrior could generate 4+ copies of Brawl, Grommash Hellscream, Sylvanas Windrunner, you get the gist xD

I totally agree that having the ability to gain lots of copies of control cards is dumb.  I play the hell out of Blood DK because it's efficient and consistent. 

Quote From Hydrafrog

Quote From KnivesOut

Playing against Blood DK makes me want to eat my shoe. It is such a boring matchup no matter what deck you are using. They discover multiple copies of the exact card they need from a very limited pool of cards. +40 health with Vampiric Blood? No problem. 3-4 straight Frostwyrm's Fury? No problem either. Build a board, have it destroyed and rebuild? Enjoy an endless stream of Corpse Explosion, Blood Boil or Soulstealer. 

I've never got Frostwyrm's Fury playing my blood DK.  How did that work?

Nerubian Vizier