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Legends of Runeterra | Posted by | 6 years, 2 months ago
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Not a fan of random upgrades in chests

One of the biggest things that attracted me to this game was that Riot had ditched the random-packs model, allowing the players to craft exactly the cards they want. In particular, the uncertain rarities of the cards in random packs often leads to a feels-bad situation when, for example, you get nothing but forty dust worth of garbage in Hearthstone.

So in Runeterra, I kinda hate the way that, even at max level, the Vault reward is mostly bad cards by default, with a random chance to upgrade each drop. It is basically full of random packs!

(For those who don't know: A diamond chest contains several hundred shards plus three rare capsules. Each rare capsule contains a handful of common cards and one guaranteed rare, much like a Hearthstone pack. And also like Hearthstone, there's a very small random chance that each capsule and card can spontaneously upgrade to a rarer version of itself.)

Getting three rare capsules that fail to upgrade out of a diamond chest is a bit of a letdown, considering how hard you worked to earn it.

I would much rather receive slightly fewer, better rewards than a larger number of weak rewards that might upgrade if I get lucky. A diamond chest should guarantee at least one epic capsule, don't you think?

This whole random upgrade thing is just a throwback to the microtransaction model everyone is starting to despise, which I thought Runeterra might be trying to move away from. Can we please just ditch it altogether?

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  • One of the biggest things that attracted me to this game was that Riot had ditched the random-packs model, allowing the players to craft exactly the cards they want. In particular, the uncertain rarities of the cards in random packs often leads to a feels-bad situation when, for example, you get nothing but forty dust worth of garbage in Hearthstone.

    So in Runeterra, I kinda hate the way that, even at max level, the Vault reward is mostly bad cards by default, with a random chance to upgrade each drop. It is basically full of random packs!

    (For those who don't know: A diamond chest contains several hundred shards plus three rare capsules. Each rare capsule contains a handful of common cards and one guaranteed rare, much like a Hearthstone pack. And also like Hearthstone, there's a very small random chance that each capsule and card can spontaneously upgrade to a rarer version of itself.)

    Getting three rare capsules that fail to upgrade out of a diamond chest is a bit of a letdown, considering how hard you worked to earn it.

    I would much rather receive slightly fewer, better rewards than a larger number of weak rewards that might upgrade if I get lucky. A diamond chest should guarantee at least one epic capsule, don't you think?

    This whole random upgrade thing is just a throwback to the microtransaction model everyone is starting to despise, which I thought Runeterra might be trying to move away from. Can we please just ditch it altogether?

  • I don't think it's that big of an issue.

    Some people got really lucky on their first vault and that's okay - this is the first vault of hundreds. Over time, everyone should be on a similar playing field with all the people that get to the same level of vault consistently having close to the same amount of rewards.

    Getting random upgrades is a feel-good feature and it is important to have them in games. The rates are also high enough that it doesn't feel impossible to get upgrades, unlike Hearthstone which requires you to open a crazy amount of content to get something so vital to gameplay (Legendaries).

    Now, I do think it would be interesting if they made it a bit more consistent and if you had earned three diamond chests, one would always contain an epic capsule. It would be a good reward for putting in all the extra time required to go from 10-13, though the diamond chests themselves already give a nice boost over the platinum ones.

  • I disagree that capsules are basically just random packs. Yes, a rare capsule is basically just a pack from Hearthstone, with the same minimum plus a chance at better stuff. But there are also epic capsules, which are gives you a guaranteed epic, and a champion capsule, which gives you are guaranteed champion. PLUS, you can choose which region to earn rewards from. If I hate playing noxus, then I simply don't earn noxus rewards. I think this is a great (and reliable) way to earn cards. I can earn cards from whatever region I chose, and I can look ahead and see what kinds of cards I will be earning and when. 

    I sounds to me like you are not dissatisfied with how they are giving you rewards, but simply with the quality of the capsules/chests. Sometimes you are going to earn the minimal rewards, that is just how all CCGs work. I really don't know what you want. Would you rather they just remove the chance of getting upgraded capsules? Or do you just want to get all around better stuff?

  • I'm... decently sure all they said is that anything you can buy will never be random, and that there will be random rewards, but as free-to-play rewards :/

    But, I mean, I'm just recalling this from memory

  • Let me put it another way, as I think there are some misunderstandings about my intent.

    First, this isn't about jealousy that maybe someone else got better stuff than me. I'm fully aware of the Law of Averages and that these things tend to even out over time, creating a level playing field for everyone. It's not about some imagined immediate "unfairness."

    (I do disagree that these upgrades are a "feel good" feature. I strongly doubt most players are even remotely aware of the baseline rewards, so they may not realize what the upgrade even means. I will add, however, that random positive reinforcement is the oldest psychological trick in the book, and frankly I find it a bit insulting to be treated like a lab rat in a Skinner box. If the game is good, I'll play it. I don't need to be cajoled with mind games.)

    Also, I'm not accusing Riot of any kind of bait-and-switch here. I know they never promised not to randomize rewards. I'd be surprised if they ever considered any other way. I'm just saying I wish they would take their philosophy about purchased items and apply it throughout the rest of the game.

    To say "all card games have always done it, so that's just how it is" has already been proven false by killing randomized packs for purchase. By extension, there's no need for rewards to have random rarities.

    Note that I did not say "no randomized rewards." I'm perfectly fine with receiving a random rare card, for example. But it should always be a rare card, not a common card with a 10 percent chance of upgrading.

    @KANSAS: Yes, I would like to completely abolish upgrading rewards in exchange for slightly fewer rewards that are slightly better by default and totally consistent in their rarity.

  • There's also the bit of info where it's only been
    yaknow
    Only a week
    Of Free to play rewards
    On a completely free game
    That throws a champion card, 6 rares, 24 commons, and 1000+ shards (1/3 champion card) at you each week as long as you're playing it to vault level 10, and spending the expedition token earned from it for the champion at least.

    On top of that, the extra shards I just mentioned, can be used to get the epics you want instead of, yaknow, the game deciding you get an epic you really don't want.... :/

    That's not including the reward tracks, that's just strictly the vault speaking



    The game needs to make money some how, you can't expect the game to throw every champion and epic at you, at least not this quickly.

    • Again, not complaining about a lack of free stuff. THAT WAS NEVER MY POINT.

      The only reason I mention "slightly better" static rewards is because taking away the random upgrades would actually diminish the overall rewards you receive unless they slightly bump up the baseline a bit.

  • I gotta side with the OP here, I'm totally okay with random rewards but the random upgrades feel too random (at least so far). I'd gladly give up highroll potential for more consistency. Of course it hasn't even been a week so we'll have to see how the experience with these rewards is in the long term.

  • You're not complaining about not getting free stuff but you'd wish the baseline rewards were better...

    :/ I am continuing to notice the contradiction that caused me to speak up to begin with...

    But I guess in your defense, the diamond chests could do with a guaranteed epic for the amount of xp jump between lvl 10->11, 11->12, 12->13

    Even though the shards are... Epics... of your choice... if you want them to be



    Edit: I should mention, yeah, I'd be okay with better rewards and more consistency.  The thing is, I know the game can't give everything for free, I'm not expecting more than 4 commons and a rare per pack.  I'm expecting my bad luck to get to me and give me the worst rewards, but even then, the worst per week at level 10 (Which is not hard) is 24 commons, 6 rares, 1000 shards I can throw at epics, and an expedition token which grants at minimum 1 champion.... free....
    I don't see the problem here

    • Quote From TriMay

      You're not complaining about not getting free stuff but you'd wish the baseline rewards were better...

      No. My wish is that the rewards were less random in rarity.

      But if they took away spontaneously upgrading rewards, it would diminish the overall value of rewards received.

      To offset that, they would need to slightly increase the baseline.

      This would result in the same amount of rewards overall, not an increase.

      • Quote From FortyDust
        Quote From TriMay

        You're not complaining about not getting free stuff but you'd wish the baseline rewards were better...

        No. My wish is that the rewards were less random in rarity.

        But if they took away spontaneously upgrading rewards, it would diminish the overall value of rewards received.

        To offset that, they would need to slightly increase the baseline.

        This would result in the same amount of rewards overall, not an increase.

        Kay well the thing is you're expecting the upgrades.  I'm not, I'm expecting the worst possible rewards, and I'm still saying that the worst possible rewards, for a free weekly reward in a free game, is pretty dang generous :T

        Quote From TriMay

        Edit: I should mention, yeah, I'd be okay with better rewards and more consistency.  The thing is, I know the game can't give everything for free, I'm not expecting more than 4 commons and a rare per pack.  I'm expecting my bad luck to get to me and give me the worst rewards, but even then, the worst per week at level 10 (Which is not hard) is 24 commons, 6 rares, 1000 shards I can throw at epics, and an expedition token which grants at minimum 1 champion.... free....
        I don't see the problem here

         

  • First off, I think you can divorce your comments regarding random upgrades from your feelings concerning the rewards' statistical distribution.  If tomorrow Riot declared "FortyDust is right; from now on, Level 14 Vaults will always give exactly 1 random epic, 10 rares, and 25 commons with no more chances of upgrades", I don't think you'd be any happier next Tuesday than you were this Tuesday.  Reading between the lines: I think you're really just looking for taller quality and less quantity--e.g., if they tripled all their percentages but quartered the total number of cards, I think you'd like that.  "Upgrade" is really just the flashy name they gave to the same RNG mechanic present in all other CCGs.

    Personally, I have mixed feelings.  I actually really like the way weekly vaults are effectively vomiting commons with a few rares and the occasional greater: it means that casual and F2P players are going to have a mechanism for easily growing their collection and to support any random champions they open, which right now is kinda a problem.  I've lost count of how many Elise, Jinx, Darius, and Zed I'm seeing at low ladder just because its so much better for new players to recycle the starter packages than to branch out.  And I like how the vault rewards taper out past Level 10: that prevents hardcore players from just using it to get that much further ahead.  That said, I too and starting to feel my enthusiasm wane with regards to my return on investment re: how hard I work towards a particular goal with what rewards I actually receive.  Filling out the collection is nice, but at the same time they are meaningless without a few tent poles to build new decks around.  In particular, I am especially disenchanted with the region-dedicated tracks right now: their quality is extremely uneven, and they give way too many wildcards for my taste.  Yes, I realize how that contradicts what I wrote just 4 sentences ago--I did say I have mixed feelings.

  • Without delving into rebuttals of individual posts:

    - I agree that rewards being semi-random is rather off-message for the goal they were apparently going for with the game's reward system, but personally don't have an issue with it

    - I would also like to voice a little support for 40D here because goddamn, dude was very clear he was looking for consistency rather than whining about a lack of drops - and people jumped on him worse than most of the actual whine-threads we get around here ¬.¬

    • Quote From Bystekhilcar

      - I agree that rewards being semi-random is rather off-message for the goal they were apparently going for with the game's reward system, but personally don't have an issue with it

      - I would also like to voice a little support for 40D here because goddamn, dude was very clear he was looking for consistency rather than whining about a lack of drops - and people jumped on him worse than most of the actual whine-threads we get around here ¬.¬

      I fully agree with both of these points.