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Legends of Runeterra | Posted by | 6 years ago
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Elusive units still a problem - Relentless Persuit is too cheap

Ok, I have this problem with the hand buff archetype that it comes with elusive units, they still cheap, they still have the same problem as before.
They are way efficient dishing damage for cheap mana, and paired with cards like twins or elixir, they have enough sustain to survive good trades or removal. 

The removal in this game in general feels good, is not like Magic that is toooo good,  but in this game, as it's core design, has problems with the burst cards that bassicaly disable some interactions.

Relentless is another busted 3 mana card, that can turn the teable for cheap, this card should be 6 mana and no 3, there is no point in this card to be so busted. 
Theorically, you can play 3 pursuit after a waypout and dish enough damage for lethal. And to be a "fast spell" is also problematic, should be slow.

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  • Ok, I have this problem with the hand buff archetype that it comes with elusive units, they still cheap, they still have the same problem as before.
    They are way efficient dishing damage for cheap mana, and paired with cards like twins or elixir, they have enough sustain to survive good trades or removal. 

    The removal in this game in general feels good, is not like Magic that is toooo good,  but in this game, as it's core design, has problems with the burst cards that bassicaly disable some interactions.

    Relentless is another busted 3 mana card, that can turn the teable for cheap, this card should be 6 mana and no 3, there is no point in this card to be so busted. 
    Theorically, you can play 3 pursuit after a waypout and dish enough damage for lethal. And to be a "fast spell" is also problematic, should be slow.

    • Ok, I am getting more upset about the current state of elusive units, they even ridiculous in Expedition... I got assaulted by 10/10 Kinkou Lifeblade Card Image. Gut elusive units already.

  • Yeah, Elusives are still a bit silly, but I do feel they could easily be fixed if they just added the "Can't block" keyword to more of them. Aggressive decks shouldn't have problems against Elusives, but they do since a buffed Elusive unit can just value block an attacker and smash into your face the next turn with nothing you can do.

    Specifically Greenglade Duo, Shadow Assassin and Kinkou Lifeblade shouldn't be able to block, especially the last one, since it allows for basically uncounterable recovery.

     

    Also agree on Relentless Pursuit. I'd say 5-mana would be acceptable. Rally is extremely underrated as an effect and most other cards with the same effect come with a huge cost or specific requirement (like Katarina or Garen)

    • I know the game is kinda new, but with so many games like HS and MTG running from ages, developers should know something about problematic card designs already.

      The first time I watched Relentless Pursuit (even when the game wasn't open beta), I said that the card was broken for a 3 mana COMMON card. 5 mana should do the trick, I agree. 


      As for Elusives I think the no block rule will be fine in general, but in the meantime, reduce their health to 1 if you wanna keep the buff hand archetype nad for the love of god, remove lifesteal from them.

    • Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

      Also agree on Relentless Pursuit. I'd say 5-mana would be acceptable. Rally is extremely underrated as an effect and most other cards with the same effect come with a huge cost or specific requirement (like Katarina or Garen)

      I actually think Relentless Pursuit is about right in terms of its cost.

      First, lets consider some comparisons: Shunpo is basically Relentless Pursuit + Mystic Shot, which adds up to their combined mana value and incurs a minor "bundling tax" (i.e. the spell is slow instead of fast, and targets are more restricted). If you adjust Relentless Pursuit up to 5, that math gets out of wack and you basically kill it in favor of Shunpo. (Yes, one is fast rather than slow, but I think there aren't a ton of cases where that will matter more than the chance to ping an enemy unit before combat.)

      The other issue with dramatically increasing its cost is that Demacia really needs ways to leverage its advantage on board. Demacian "removal" tools mostly come in the form of unit buffs/combat tricks, so if they can't consistently push the attack and leverage a wide mid-sized board, they're basically dead in the water and relegated to a supporting role.

      That second point really highlights the real issue here - it's too easy to drop a small Demacian support package into a deck that wants to attack (Hecarim resurrection decks, Elusive decks, etc.) and abuse the heck out of it. Instead, I would play a little more with what the effect of the card is.

      Perhaps a better nerf would be to change the text to read "If you have a Demacian ally, Rally." This would leave it as a powerful tool for folks trying to make a Demacian deck work, but would limit the ease of abuse in other decks that only run it to make aggro shells OP.

  • I can see a case for making Relentless Pursuit a Slow spell, but the mana cost is fine as is.

    For Elusives, they should just make it part of the keyword that Elusive units can block (and be blocked by) other Elusives only.

    • Quote From FortyDust

      I can see a case for making Relentless Pursuit a Slow spell, but the mana cost is fine as is.

      For Elusives, they should just make it part of the keyword that Elusive units can block (and be blocked by) other Elusives only.

      I considered that one too, but it does nerf some cards that are completely fine otherwise for no reason (such as The Empyrean, who is pretty expensive and would be completely pointless if he only ever acted as a mediocre beater, same goes for other stuff like Silverwing Vanguard, etc.) I'd rather keep it limited to the early-game elusives that promote aggressive strategies.

      • Quote From YourPrivateNightmare
        Quote From FortyDust

        I can see a case for making Relentless Pursuit a Slow spell, but the mana cost is fine as is.

        For Elusives, they should just make it part of the keyword that Elusive units can block (and be blocked by) other Elusives only.

        I considered that one too, but it does nerf some cards that are completely fine otherwise for no reason (such as The Empyrean, who is pretty expensive and would be completely pointless if he only ever acted as a mediocre beater, same goes for other stuff like Silverwing Vanguard, etc.) I'd rather keep it limited to the early-game elusives that promote aggressive strategies.

        So give those cards a little buff, or lower their cost. I don't really care for The Empyrean being just a big elusive thing that's otherwise vanilla. It needs an ability anyway. And did you mean Silverwing ScoutBADCARDNAME? Just give it Challenger!

  • Elusives are countered by Challenger Units, the barrier/Fiora deck does it quite nicely.
    That being said, not every faction has acess to good challenger units, Elusive Freljord is still the best deck at the moment. 
    Solitary Monk is also a bit too strong in strategies that can use the spell mana pool efficiently.

    Relentless Pursuit has the same problem as the old deny at 3 had: It can't be punished by just sitting at 3 spell mana, waiting for the perfect turn until the  oponnent can be finished off.
    Expect it to be nerfed in the near future.

     

  • Personally, I'd like to see:

    • Shadow Assassin go from 2/2 to 1/2 (drawing is huge in this game; you shouldn't also get decent attack)
    • Solitary Monk's recalling changed from whenever she's summoned to whenever she attacks (if you're going to commit to using her as a strong offense, you should be more vulnerable on defense)
    • Glenglade DuoBADCARDNAME increased from 2 mana to 3 (too easy to get a perfect 1->2->3->4 curve right now using only elusives)
    • Relentless Pursuit changed to slow (opponent should have 1 chance to play a blocker)
    • Kinkou Lifeblade, Jeweled Protector, and Windfarer Hatchling left as-is (with the aforementioned changes, elusive decks should be less of a constant burn and more setup for a big midgame swing)
    • Quote From OldManSanns

      Personally, I'd like to see:

      • Shadow Assassin go from 2/2 to 1/2 (drawing is huge in this game; you shouldn't also get decent attack)
      • Solitary Monk's recalling changed from whenever she's summoned to whenever she attacks (if you're going to commit to using her as a strong offense, you should be more vulnerable on defense)
      • Glenglade Duo increased from 2 mana to 3 (too easy to get a perfect 1->2->3->4 curve right now using only elusives)
      • Relentless Pursuit changed to slow (opponent should have 1 chance to play a blocker)
      • Kinkou Lifeblade, Jeweled Protector, and Windfarer Hatchling left as-is (with the aforementioned changes, elusive decks should be less of a constant burn and more setup for a big midgame swing)


      Not a big fan of Lifesteal on Elusives. I can agree with those changes, but Relentless should be 4 mana instead of 3, Also I would add the slow but that would be too much of a nerf.

       

      Elusives should be like the old ethereals from mtg, that can be blocked and block only ethereal creatures.

       

  • NGL, I genuinely laughed when I saw it proposed that Relentless Pursuit should be five mana. People do so love to brick cards.

  • I guess I'm in favor of making Relentless Pursuit a slow-speed spell. Honestly, I'm not sure a mana-cost increase is warranted; the card is pretty underwhelming in many scenarios. It only shines as a 'win-more' button if you've already got a heavy board advantage or if you control units that can't be blocked (circling back to the Elusive and Fearsome dilemma).

  • With respect to the "elusives in expedition mode" problem, if that were the only problem with elusives then I'd say the real fix would just be to rebalance the various bundles and their frequencies to limit the number of elusives that show up. Most elusives have fairly low HP, and can be beaten with numerous removal tools so long as they are not overrunning the board.

    The problem of elusives in constructed is harder. Riot has said that they want other types of aggro decks to be be able to push damage faster, and it seems like they're trying to create a bit of a push-pull in the metagame around which aggro decks are best. I wonder if the only real fix for elusives is new cards (especially new AOE) to help control players.

    • I feel (and I might be wrong) that Elusive in constructed is just solid against everything if both players draw well. And is just horrible racing them to going face. Feels awfull to play control and not draw well enough to deal with they board, and feels awfull to play midrange and get outvalued.

      Maybe is just me. And don't get me wrong, I play Elusive decks sometimes, just feel overwhelming.

      • Quote From Leglock

        I feel (and I might be wrong) that Elusive in constructed is just solid against everything if both players draw well. And is just horrible racing them to going face. Feels awfull to play control and not draw well enough to deal with they board, and feels awfull to play midrange and get outvalued.

        Maybe is just me. And don't get me wrong, I play Elusive decks sometimes, just feel overwhelming.

        No, I think you're right.  Looking at the popular deck lists right now, I think the bigger problem is that the current card library lends itself to a beautiful curve moreso than any individual card.  You've got 6 one-drops, 6 two-drops, 6 three-drops (choice of either Zed or Monk), 6 four-drops, plus if you do go off-curve you've got some great cheap support from Elixir of Iron and Twin Disciplines.  You also get fantastic synergizes: both one-drops love being picked up by Navori Conspirator, Greenglade Duo gets extra damage from Zed, everything loves the buffs from Omen Hawk, etc.  The whole thing is just a little too efficient for my taste.

        • Quote From OldManSanns

          No, I think you're right.  Looking at the popular deck lists right now, I think the bigger problem is that the current card library lends itself to a beautiful curve moreso than any individual card.  You've got 6 one-drops, 6 two-drops, 6 three-drops (choice of either Zed or Monk), 6 four-drops, plus if you do go off-curve you've got some great cheap support from Elixir of Iron and Twin Disciplines.  You also get fantastic synergizes: both one-drops love being picked up by Navori Conspirator, Greenglade Duo gets extra damage from Zed, everything loves the buffs from Omen Hawk, etc.  The whole thing is just a little too efficient for my taste.

          All good points -- it's as if no one considered the fact that the Elusive keyword is already a huge bonus, so they packed in all these extra goodies without raising the mana cost.

          If Navori Conspirator, for example, had originally cost 3 mana, people might say it's a terrible card, unplayable, what was Riot thinking?! Then, within a week, it would be in every Elusive deck, bouncing those Hawks and Mentors like super balls.

  • I think the problem with Elusive isn't so much the mechanic itself is overpowered, but rather it's not that easily accessible.

    The reason Flying works in MTG is because every color has access to some of them. It's a very neutral and accessible keyword, and even though Green has the fewest Flying creatures, they make up for it by being the best color at dealing with them.

    Elusive though? Elusive is pretty much only in Ionia and P&Z (with Silverwing ScoutBADCARDNAME being the only exception). If you're not running one of those regions, your only hope is Challenger. Every region has a little bit of Challenger, but some regions have substantially more than others.

    I think the best way to fix Elusive is to make Elusive a much more neutral keyword found in every region. That way, everyone can play them, and everyone can counter them to some degree.

    Staff
    • Quote From Demonxz95

      I think the best way to fix Elusive is to make Elusive a much more neutral keyword found in every region. That way, everyone can play them, and everyone can counter them to some degree.

      It will be in some time, i presume.

      I mean, If you check the regions of Runeterra, There are all kinds of champions there from lol.

      I can give the Leblanc example for noxus, in Legends of Runeterra, There can't be a card with situation of Noxus today because she is a mage. She has magic-related spells, not like Vladimir or combat related how Noxus is shaped right now. That's just an example for how regions might be in future.

      However, I don't agree that it will fix the situation about elusives. In my opinion, Elusives should be like Stealth in Hearthstone, if they deal damage, they should lose elusive keyword because after all regions reach elusive keyword, We will find ourselves in a meta with full of elusives with different variations.

      It might seem a little problematic for elusive champions like Teemo/Ezreal at first but there is also another solution, Make Elusive keywords permanent for champions like how it is right now and give follower elusive units a text like "After I deal damage, I lose Elusive." or something like that.

      There is also another problem with Kinkou Lifeblade. It should have a text like "After I deal damage, I heal your nexus for 2." instead of lifesteal

      For Relentless Pursuit, I also agree that it should cost 4 mana but should keep its fast keyword.


      There is also another problem with Ephemerals noone ever mentioned here. I feel like Ephemeral units should die after they take some damage. Like when you use a Mystic Shot on a Darkwater Scourge, it should die instantly, This will make Death Mark + Darkwater Scourge combo more situational and they can't just do that against your 1/1 spiderling without a brain just because they want a 5/5 body with lifesteal. Same interaction for Death Lotus against Hecarim and Hecarim's Spectral Riders and also for that cancer card Mark of the Isles.

      Mark of the Isles one of the most broken cards in the game. Look other 1-cost one round buff options and compare them with each other;

      -Elixir of Wrath
      -Elixir of Iron
      -Radiant Strike
      -Rush

      All of them makes only one thing while Mark of the Isles do the all, Best option to kill a unit with Quick attack, Best option to do lethal, Best option to lifesteal, Best option to removal with buffing a unit(/w Death Mark) etc.

      As i said above, Ephemeral units should die if they take some damage from any source. It makes ephemeral interactions more skillful in my opinion. I really hate to see when they changed Darkwater Scourge's ephemeral with one of my Spiderlings or Omen Hawks or Scrap Scuttlers to just have a 5/5 lifesteal on board after they skipped their first 2 turn.

      TL;DR

      I have these solutions for some broken interactions;

      - All Elusive followers (not champions) have a text as "After I deal damage, I lose Elusive." now.
      - Kinkou Lifeblade has no longer lifesteal. He has a text as "When I deal damage, I heal your nexus for 2 health." now.
      - Relentless Pursuit 4 mana up from 3.
      - Ephemerals now dies after they take a damage from any source.

      • Quote From Almaniarra

        In my opinion, Elusives should be like Stealth in Hearthstone, if they deal damage, they should lose elusive keyword because after all regions reach elusive keyword, We will find ourselves in a meta with full of elusives with different variations.

        It might seem a little problematic for elusive champions like Teemo/Ezreal at first but there is also another solution, Make Elusive keywords permanent for champions like how it is right now and give follower elusive units a text like "After I deal damage, I lose Elusive." or something like that.

        There is also another problem with Kinkou Lifeblade. It should have a text like "After I deal damage, I heal your nexus for 2." instead of lifesteal

        I like the idea of making Elusive more like HS Stealth. For units that need to be permanently stealthy, just make a new keyword, maybe Invisible.

        If Elusive is changed as you suggest, Kinkou Lifeblade does not need any additional nerf.

        And Ephemerals are a completely different story, but I don't think making them even more fragile is necessary at this time. (Your suggestion seems equivalent to nerfing their Health to 1, by the way. It doesn't need to be part of the keyword. That way, certain units could be exempted more easily.)