Welcome to the Legends of Runeterra realm!
I don't think there are any top tier decks that rely heavily on the klepto cards (like Pilfered Goods, but playing against those cards is so goddamn frustrating.
Assuming you can activate the plunder effects with reasonable consistency, they're highly efficient card draw (in game where most card draw from your own deck is fairly inefficient) and they can significantly disrupt your opponent. It just seems like a very unfun design paradigm.
// join_the_conversation
Sign in to share your thoughts, vote on comments, and connect with the community.
I don't think there are any top tier decks that rely heavily on the klepto cards (like Pilfered Goods, but playing against those cards is so goddamn frustrating.
Assuming you can activate the plunder effects with reasonable consistency, they're highly efficient card draw (in game where most card draw from your own deck is fairly inefficient) and they can significantly disrupt your opponent. It just seems like a very unfun design paradigm.
I never liked deck attacks in HS and i certainly dont like them in Runeterra.
Can you elaborate why you do feel frustrated?
In my opinion is just a perspective issue... just think the cards they take are in the botton of your deck so you would not draw them anyway.
What they get from your deck most of the time don't synergyse well with their deck. Getting 2 random cards is much worse then drawing 2 cards.
Yes, it can disrupt combos sometimes, but i don't think the idea of a card that can randomly interrupt plays is bad at all.
Quote From Hellcopter Can you elaborate why you do feel frustrated?
In my opinion is just a perspective issue... just think the cards they take are in the botton of your deck so you would not draw them anyway.
What they get from your deck most of the time don't synergyse well with their deck. Getting 2 random cards is much worse then drawing 2 cards.
Yes, it can disrupt combos sometimes, but i don't think the idea of a card that can randomly interrupt plays is bad at all.
I think we're kind of talking across purposes here. You seem to be arguing that it's not a big deal because you might have never drawn the card anyway, and that they're effectively random cards for your opponent. On those points, I mostly agree, with one major caveat.The cards they steal may have no meaningful synergies with their decks, but they're better than random because you put them in your deck, so they're most like getting "good random" cards, with the upshot of potentially denying you something important.
Some reasons this is so frustrating to me:
Disruption is good/healthy for CCGs, but disruption that also generates card advantage should be very limited/very expensive. Comparing to Hearthstone, while there are a variety of ways to waste or destroy combo tools your opponent is using, there's basically no card theft in the game. Even in the classes which can "steal," they get copies of their opponent's cards. This is because, regardless of its impact statistically on the game, it feels really bad for the player whose cards get stolen.
Quote From meisterz39
I think we're kind of talking across purposes here. You seem to be arguing that it's not a big deal because you might have never drawn the card anyway, and that they're effectively random cards for your opponent. On those points, I mostly agree, with one major caveat.The cards they steal may have no meaningful synergies with their decks, but they're better than random because you put them in your deck, so they're most like getting "good random" cards, with the upshot of potentially denying you something important.
No, they are better then random. Now that i think about it, they are even worse then random unless its a mirror match.
Why? Because followers in this game have a role in the deck they are fit in. The game is balanced enough units are not being played for their stats/curve ratio. A unit that is good enough to see play in a given deck, won't usually see play in other decks unless its fullfilling the same role.
Take a burn deck as an example. If you could pick, which cards would you steal from their deck? 90% of their cards are actually garbage for your gameplan. They work very well for their strategy but not for yours. Worse then random, as random cards may actually give you a shot to some counters.
This isn't hearthstone, were there is so much imbalance/power creep that minions like Sylvanas/Ragnaros/Piloted Shredder/etc are so much better then everything else that fit just fine in any deck.
Disruption is good/healthy for CCGs, but disruption that also generates card advantage should be very limited/very expensive. Comparing to Hearthstone, while there are a variety of ways to waste or destroy combo tools your opponent is using, there's basically no card theft in the game. Even in the classes which can "steal," they get copies of their opponent's cards. This is because, regardless of its impact statistically on the game, it feels really bad for the player whose cards get stolen.
Some reasons this is so frustrating to me:
- Card draw in Runeterra is quite limited. A lot of cards that draw do not generate meaningful card advantage because they're just cantrips (e.g. Avarosan Sentry), and the ones that do are generally expensive, around a "4 mana draw 2" going rate. So, these klepto cards are some of the most efficient ways to generate card advantage, and the fact that they're probably "good random" cards as far as your opponent is concerned makes them very valuable. The result is a sense that your opponent is often better at drawing cards from you than you are, which feels pretty bad
- There are strategies for which the "imagine these are the bottom cards of the deck" really breaks down. For example, Freljord has ways to put Yetis on top of your deck and buff cards near the top of your deck. These strategies generally involve playing weaker units/expensive spells up front for those future payoffs. It's a major part of the Freljord identity, and stealing from the top of the deck is uniquely punishing for those strategies.
- It just feels really bad to see your opponent get your strong cards and know that you can't get them. This is true even if it's not statistically significant in terms of your win rates against klepto decks. It's probably very fun for the klepto deck, and can make for an interesting gameplay puzzle to solve on their end, but that spike in the klepto player's happiness is mirrored by a massive drop in the happiness of the player from whom they stole cards.
1- Maybe you are not used to play the card yourself. Activating plunder is manageble but not free. It usually has to be played in combination with other cards so it has an "extra" cost. Sometimes it will just not be possible to plunder and its a dead card, other times when you do plunder, might be a thought decision to either contest the board or play the card. And its much harder to plunder when defending. There are so many potencial downsides not to mention thats no guarantee what you get is even usefull.
2- I agree but i don't see a problem with this card being a counter against it. Freljord also have Ashe and Warmother, stealing from those decks is quite bad.
3- Why it feels bad my friend. Its part of the game. It won't occur everytime, and when that happens, its his time to have fun. Don't give up and show him you can play whats left from your deck better then he does. Its not like you lost already, man up and fight!
No, they are better then random. Now that i think about it, they are even worse then random unless its a mirror match.
Why? Because followers in this game have a role in the deck they are fit in. The game is balanced enough units are not being played for their stats/curve ratio. A unit that is good enough to see play in a given deck, won't usually see play in other decks unless its fullfilling the same role.
Take a burn deck as an example. If you could pick, which cards would you steal from their deck? 90% of their cards are actually garbage for your gameplan. They work very well for their strategy but not for yours. Worse then random, as random cards may actually give you a shot to some counters.
I think you wildly misunderstand the difference between "game balance" and "card quality." Sure, there's a lot of effort put into balancing the game and making sure different strategies have entirely different sets of cards to support those strategies. But that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of bad cards in the game.
Taking your example of a burn deck, will my midrange or control deck be thrilled to steal a Crimson Disciple from my enemy? Probably not, because my deck probably doesn't have the self harm cards needed to trigger its effect. But it's objectively way better than Flame Chompers! or Feral Mystic or Intrepid Mariner or Jae Medarda any number of other units that aren't good enough to see play in any deck, or are totally pointless against the burn deck because of how expensive they are.
Almost by definition, if no meta deck is running a particular card, it's because that card isn't a very effective tool against the existing metagame. So, there will always be lots of cards which are below average in quality, don't see play, and are worse than stealing from your opponent's deck. Your stolen cards don't need to fit your deck's plan, they need to be better than the universe of random garbage you might have otherwise generated, and almost by definition, they will be.
If both effects already exists in the game, why the combination of the 2 is a problem?
This kind of question reflects a really basic misunderstanding about game balance. I can have two cards that are complete garbage on their own, but when I combine them into a single card, even if there's a "bundling tax" on the mana cost, they become incredibly powerful. This is because you have a limit on how many cards you can run, and the opportunity cost associated with running two meh cards much higher than the opportunity cost of running one card with two meh effects attached to it.
It's hard to find an example in Legends of Runeterra because the game is relatively new, and there aren't a ton of these "bundling" examples yet. But a great example of this in Hearthstone is Branching Paths. 4 mana draw 2 is bad, 4 mana buff +2/+0 is okay for a token deck but not the best that Druid has, and 4 mana heal 12 is okay in certain metagames. You might not run any one of those cards in Druid, but the fact that they all came bundled on one card that let you mix and match effects made Branching Paths very powerful.
Quote From meisterz39 It just feels really bad to see your opponent get your strong cards and know that you can't get them. [...] that spike in the klepto player's happiness is mirrored by a massive drop in the happiness of the player from whom they stole cards.
I regard this as a subjective judgment. I've never felt bad about an opponent copying cards from my hand or drawing/copying cards from my deck in any card game, specifically Hearthstone and Runeterra. In fact, I've always wondered why anyone would be inclined to run cards which allow them to do that (apart from deck synergies that capitalize on, say, using cards that didn't start in your deck). In fact, in many cases, I'm happy when my opponent takes stuff from my deck, knowing that they can't typically incorporate it very well into their own game plan.
Honestly, the only thing about the klepto cards that annoy me is that I really want to build a deckbuff deck around Shared Spoils, Avarosan Hearthguard, and Ursine Spiritwalker, and the very thought of putting in all that effort to an (at best) Tier-3 deck only to have my opponent steal and play my own buffed units against me makes me want cry.
Maybe pilfered goods should be 4 Mana “draw 2 non-champions from the bottom of the enemy deck. Plunder: They cost 1 less”? That way it’s more like a smaller Progress day that draws worse cards.
Also, I think the reason that Pilfer cards take cards from the enemy deck is that it’s meant to make a combo with Maokai.
Was editing my post and it disappeared somehow... sigh
Quote From Hellcopter Was editing my post and it disappeared somehow... sigh
It was flagged as Spam, probably because of its length and multi-quotes. I put it back.
As for the topic at hand, I think all deck-attacks are frustrating to deal with, so I totally agree with the premise. You use your stuff, I'll use my stuff, and we'll see which is better. Leave my stuff alone.
Quote From linkblade91 As for the topic at hand, I think all deck-attacks are frustrating to deal with, so I totally agree with the premise. You use your stuff, I'll use my stuff, and we'll see which is better. Leave my stuff alone.
But what if i like your stuff.
Don't be selfish, lets share the goods dude ;)
Didn't Hearthstone's Thoughtsteal function exactly the same way in the beta? and Hearthstone putting more emphasis on feel-good feeling changed it to only make copies?
Branching Paths is a poor example as it is the best self-heal card in the game, and comes in the best form of armor gain so it can overheal. The bundle makes it even more powerfull as its possible to convert into card advantage or board pressure when heal isn't needed.
Branching is not situational and never a dead card like Pilfered can be sometimes.
Also, picking alternating effects was somewhat unusual, players very often chose the same effect twice.
Back to my example, you seem to not realize that 90% of cards stolen from burn decks won't help change the outcome of the match. They are just as useless as all the cards you listed. The difference would not reach even 1% WR. From a statistical perspective, generating a random card won't help either the huge majority of the time... BUT, when you do get something relevant, it may turn the tides of the battle.
I don't know how they are happy creating these cards that steal your resources, but there is nothing like mana burning things.
I think there are a few problems with the klepto cards. People have already talked about card advantage and Freljord buffs.
But I think one major advantage that frustrates me, is asymmetric information advantage. If my opponent draws my Ruination, not only does he know he needs to play around it less, but I DON'T know what part of my own deck to play around. And it's just frustrating to play around my opponent deck as well as my own deck.
Another example is I once played 2 pilfered goods, and snagged 3 will of ionias. I now know that I don't need to play around it at all, but my opponent has no idea what I'm capable of doing to his units.
I think it would help if they made the stolen cards visible to the player they were stolen from, so at least the victim knows what the opponent knows. If I know to play around a Ruination / Deny etc specifically, it won't be so frustrating when it does come out.
Quote From Lazerbeans I think there are a few problems with the klepto cards. People have already talked about card advantage and Freljord buffs.
But I think one major advantage that frustrates me, is asymmetric information advantage. If my opponent draws my Ruination, not only does he know he needs to play around it less, but I DON'T know what part of my own deck to play around. And it's just frustrating to play around my opponent deck as well as my own deck.
Another example is I once played 2 pilfered goods, and snagged 3 will of ionias. I now know that I don't need to play around it at all, but my opponent has no idea what I'm capable of doing to his units.
I think it would help if they made the stolen cards visible to the player they were stolen from, so at least the victim knows what the opponent knows. If I know to play around a Ruination / Deny etc specifically, it won't be so frustrating when it does come out.
To add to this, even when they play the cards they stole, the game doesn't tell you. If it would just say somewhere "this card was stolen" it would be a lot better.
I don't mind Pilfer to much as most of the time they get stuff that doesn't really fit with their build and today I saw someone running Teemo and it was funny because he used Pilfer and took his own mushrooms to the face. So yeah Teemo and Pilfer do not mix. lol.
But with that aside Pilfer in expeditions is a must pick. No deck is perfect in expeditions and they all have random stuff in them, so Pilfers negative effect of pulling cards that may not mesh with your deck, is made mute.
Leave a Comment