Bluetracker
Tracks Blizzard employees across various accounts.
Hearthstone's Balance Philosophy is flawed, and it's not because Priest sucks
We've all seen the new Priest cards and know that they will probably be awful and the class won't be played. That isn't to say that maybe next expansion Blizzard might actually release some good Priest cards and have the class be viable again. Most people might even be happy with that, and cheer Blizzard on for a job well done.
Well, I won't be satisfied. And here's why: Blizzard's philosophy about balance in this game is "turn based". That is to say: Blizzard has no interest in balancing all the classes as closely as possible. For them, it is enough to simply let each class have a "time to shine", so to speak. So a while from now, they will buff Priest with some insane cards and then break some other class. After that, presumably, they'll pat themselves on the back for a job well done.
Call me an idealist, but I hate this philosophy. It's true that one class will always be the "best" and one will always be the "worst", but the goal should be to make them all as equal as possible. Instead, Blizzard uses this as a lame excuse to throw all balance out the window and simply make sure that the same classes aren't always on top. The fact that Blizzard also apparently have very little clue about what cards are actually good and which aren't is also worrisome- and if you combine that with their inability to release smaller, more frequent balance patches, well- it's kind of dreadful, really.
We should hold Blizzard to a higher standard. The Overwatch team understands this. They not only communicate with the community, but they actually listen and implement changes that people think are necessary. Example: McCree was seen as too strong, D.Va was seen as too weak- Blizzard listened- they changed both of these heroes, and now I would argue they are quite well balanced, both of them seeing play in high ranked matchmaking.
Some people will argue "it's only a for-fun card game, balance is harder and more less important as long as it's fun", but I think Blizzard are doing a pretty piss-poor job of it as of right now- and it's more than just individual bad balancing decisions, it's the core philosophy. I also don't understand why they're doing a full 180 turn now, when League of Explorers was a great expansion. Are there simply different teams working on different expansions? What happened?
I think I know why Blizzard does this: they see us, the people who play Hearthstone frequently, as a "hardcore" vocal minority. After all, 80% or more of the people who play Hearthstone are just casual fans who play on their mobile devices. Therefore, our complaints aren't that important, after all, the casual fans will keep playing. Well, I don't think this is a good philosophy either. The "hardcore" playerbase are the ones who market these games and make them appealing to more casual audiences, we create the "free advertising" that convinces others to play. And with YouTubers like Kripp and more telling everyone that this expansion is probably going to be weak, I predict there will be a negative pushback from the casual side as well.
Iksar
I meant to say the win rates of any class at Legend are rarely much different than win rates at Rank 25. In my experience, most people expect things like Face Hunter to be stronger at Rank 25 than at Legend.
Iksar
I think it's better if players aren't bogged down by what is a couple percentage points better than anything else over X games at X skill level and just play whatever they think is best.
Iksar
I think it's cool we decided to share some data there, but overall class win rate doesn't really share the best story when talking about balance or design goals. We mainly look at archetype reports and check out whether or not each class has at least 1-2 strategies they can look to to be successful. If that's not the case then we try to either bump existing strategies or create new ones. For EX: at one point Rogue was around 43% win rate, but that was largely because so many people found Gang Up / Mill to be something they enjoyed playing. I think most people that made the deck went into it knowing they weren't playing a hyper-competitive deck, but did so anyway because that archetype was fun to them. The chunk of players playing Gang-Up Mill drove Rogues win-rate down a ton, but that doesn't necessarily demand a response of 'the win-rate of Rogue is low, they need stronger cards to bump up over 50%'. There are many examples similar to this. In any case, there is no one happy when a class does not have a fun/effective strategy they can turn to. If that ends up being the case with any class we are looking to try and fix that, whether it's a perception problem or an actual one doesn't really matter.
Iksar
I'm not really sure what you are referring to, but there are 10+ responses in this thread alone. In any case, sorry if it came off that way. The purpose wasn't really to prove anything, only to try and steer the conversation in a direction that could be more useful.
Iksar
Can look at both. Players have a background MMR at all times regardless of rank. There are circumstances where very strong players don't play for 2-3 months and the rank doesn't represent their skill level as much, but the frequency of that doesn't happen enough to invalidate rank V rank data imo.
Iksar
Having both is important. Having simple decks that have limited decisions per turn is great for some part of the audience. Having decks with tons of decisions (Patron, Freeze Mage, Miracle) is great for another part of the audience. There is not a mass movement towards one or the other, both should exist.
Iksar
Not my intention. Part of it is I think it's less fun when a game presents you a problem but you can just look up the answer on the internet. The second part is because the meta fluctuates. What is strong today isn't necessarily strong tomorrow. Giving out information on win rates of all classes and archetypes can potentially be misleading rather than helpful.
Iksar
I think the purpose of responding to threads isn't to tell anyone they are wrong, but to hopefully move the conversation into a direction that is useful for everyone. I'm mostly interested in having discussions about what in particular each individual thinks is lacking or what is awesome they want more of. I think it's unlikely the reason an individual is or isn't having fun in Hearthstone is to the overall win rate of a class being X percent over X million games across all skill levels. I haven't looked nearly deep enough into third party statistics to determine their accuracy so I can't really comment on that.
Iksar
Old Murk-Eye because he's Wild. (I'm funny)
Iksar
While the part about balancing as much on fun as competitiveness is true, the hope is to address that by introducing strategies that don't give you a hopeless feeling to lose against and are still fun to play. Losing is never fun, but losing to a C'Thun Druid that worked very hard over the course of the game to make a big C'Thun is easier to swallow than getting chipped down a little bit and losing to double combo.
Iksar
I think I mentioned this above, but we have access to (and utilize) a wide variety of statistics from individual card power level, deck archetype performance at any selection of MMR/rank we choose, to analysis of our individual best players and their deck choices/matchups. I'm not sure where the idea of us having only one statistic that shows win rates across all players regardless of deck or skill level comes from, but it is not accurate. I could be watching your game right now. YES YOU. (ok not really, but srs we have lots of stats)
Iksar
This isn't very accurate. We look at and evaluate statistics at every level of play. Win rates of classes are surprisingly similar across all skill levels in most cases. Rogue has traditionally been the class that sees the most fluctuation at different levels if I had to pick one. There are some decks like old Patron, Miracle, Freeze Mage that have much higher win rates the higher skill player you go, but there are only a few examples of that.