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Hearthstone's Balance Philosophy is flawed, and it's not because Priest sucks

We've all seen the new Priest cards and know that they will probably be awful and the class won't be played. That isn't to say that maybe next expansion Blizzard might actually release some good Priest cards and have the class be viable again. Most people might even be happy with that, and cheer Blizzard on for a job well done.

Well, I won't be satisfied. And here's why: Blizzard's philosophy about balance in this game is "turn based". That is to say: Blizzard has no interest in balancing all the classes as closely as possible. For them, it is enough to simply let each class have a "time to shine", so to speak. So a while from now, they will buff Priest with some insane cards and then break some other class. After that, presumably, they'll pat themselves on the back for a job well done.

Call me an idealist, but I hate this philosophy. It's true that one class will always be the "best" and one will always be the "worst", but the goal should be to make them all as equal as possible. Instead, Blizzard uses this as a lame excuse to throw all balance out the window and simply make sure that the same classes aren't always on top. The fact that Blizzard also apparently have very little clue about what cards are actually good and which aren't is also worrisome- and if you combine that with their inability to release smaller, more frequent balance patches, well- it's kind of dreadful, really.

We should hold Blizzard to a higher standard. The Overwatch team understands this. They not only communicate with the community, but they actually listen and implement changes that people think are necessary. Example: McCree was seen as too strong, D.Va was seen as too weak- Blizzard listened- they changed both of these heroes, and now I would argue they are quite well balanced, both of them seeing play in high ranked matchmaking.

Some people will argue "it's only a for-fun card game, balance is harder and more less important as long as it's fun", but I think Blizzard are doing a pretty piss-poor job of it as of right now- and it's more than just individual bad balancing decisions, it's the core philosophy. I also don't understand why they're doing a full 180 turn now, when League of Explorers was a great expansion. Are there simply different teams working on different expansions? What happened?

I think I know why Blizzard does this: they see us, the people who play Hearthstone frequently, as a "hardcore" vocal minority. After all, 80% or more of the people who play Hearthstone are just casual fans who play on their mobile devices. Therefore, our complaints aren't that important, after all, the casual fans will keep playing. Well, I don't think this is a good philosophy either. The "hardcore" playerbase are the ones who market these games and make them appealing to more casual audiences, we create the "free advertising" that convinces others to play. And with YouTubers like Kripp and more telling everyone that this expansion is probably going to be weak, I predict there will be a negative pushback from the casual side as well.

TL;DR: http://www.nerfnow.com/img/737/1186.png


  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    Is it surprising that the win rates are similar? In a ranked system, don't we expect that the win rates of all classes and decks would tend towards 50%?

    What am I not understanding?

    I meant to say the win rates of any class at Legend are rarely much different than win rates at Rank 25. In my experience, most people expect things like Face Hunter to be stronger at Rank 25 than at Legend.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    Is there a reason you don't make this data available to fans? I'd be very curious to see the frequency and winrate of priest in legend right now.

    I think it's better if players aren't bogged down by what is a couple percentage points better than anything else over X games at X skill level and just play whatever they think is best.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    Your stats seem to contradict everything we seem to have access to, either official http://i.imgur.com/kMfunDS.jpg (from https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/4mgleu/china_class_representation_and_winrates_from_23/) or unofficial ones ( http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-12/ ).

    You can try to affirm that the second one (and ones like it) are selected to bias for people more inclined to take the game seriously, but I find it difficult to do for the china stats. And even if they did, it would just indicate even MORE that there ARE differences between classes that are BIG, just that in your data they are hidden by a giant amount of random data on top of that. But even then you should be able to select for that... I don't understand.

    I think it's cool we decided to share some data there, but overall class win rate doesn't really share the best story when talking about balance or design goals. We mainly look at archetype reports and check out whether or not each class has at least 1-2 strategies they can look to to be successful. If that's not the case then we try to either bump existing strategies or create new ones. For EX: at one point Rogue was around 43% win rate, but that was largely because so many people found Gang Up / Mill to be something they enjoyed playing. I think most people that made the deck went into it knowing they weren't playing a hyper-competitive deck, but did so anyway because that archetype was fun to them. The chunk of players playing Gang-Up Mill drove Rogues win-rate down a ton, but that doesn't necessarily demand a response of 'the win-rate of Rogue is low, they need stronger cards to bump up over 50%'. There are many examples similar to this. In any case, there is no one happy when a class does not have a fun/effective strategy they can turn to. If that ends up being the case with any class we are looking to try and fix that, whether it's a perception problem or an actual one doesn't really matter.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    Nice to see Blizz pop in for their yearly post showing how much they care about their players. Just so we're clear, this neither counts as community engagement, nor does your condescending and vague post prove anything.

    I'm not really sure what you are referring to, but there are 10+ responses in this thread alone. In any case, sorry if it came off that way. The purpose wasn't really to prove anything, only to try and steer the conversation in a direction that could be more useful.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    [deleted]

    Can look at both. Players have a background MMR at all times regardless of rank. There are circumstances where very strong players don't play for 2-3 months and the rank doesn't represent their skill level as much, but the frequency of that doesn't happen enough to invalidate rank V rank data imo.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but dropping minions on curve isn't the same as working hard towards a goal. I prefer to lose to a combo deck in which people have to make important decisions about when to play a certain removal, when to use a combo piece in a not-so-ideal context in order to be able to remove an opponent's key minion, how to use cycle mechanisms without overdrawing and burning important cards... I think there's a lot more merit in that than playing C'Thun buff cards and overstated minions until you draw C'Thun himself. That's how I see things.

    Alas, Hearthstone is losing the strategic component that made it engaging in order to cater to a part of the playerbase which arguably has the attention span of a well-fed mosquito and just wants instant gratification and a board full of minions ready to go face. This instant gratification thing is what made WoW lose its appeal to a large part of its fans. The idea that you don't need some effort to be good, and making a game that everyone can successfully play with minimal effort isn't appealing for a long term fanbase. It's ok for a while, but going down this path will probably bring bad (or worse) things.

    Having both is important. Having simple decks that have limited decisions per turn is great for some part of the audience. Having decks with tons of decisions (Patron, Freeze Mage, Miracle) is great for another part of the audience. There is not a mass movement towards one or the other, both should exist.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    And I think that it's condescending for you to tell us what is best for us.

    Not my intention. Part of it is I think it's less fun when a game presents you a problem but you can just look up the answer on the internet. The second part is because the meta fluctuates. What is strong today isn't necessarily strong tomorrow. Giving out information on win rates of all classes and archetypes can potentially be misleading rather than helpful.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    That is a cop out answer. The only people who will sift through statistics are people who are already neurotic about that sort of thing, they will just find inaccurate statistics from things like 3rd party stat recording sites. If the classes are as balanced as you say and you felt the need to come to a r/hearthstone thread and correct people citing grossly inaccurate personally collected statistics then it would only benefit your own cause to release the real numbers.

    edit: also if you need evidence that what you said isn't true. Dota2 lets sites openly track through the API all of the statistics you are hiding out of fear of... something. http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/winning here is the aggregate hero winrates. You know what people are not asking for? Omniknight, Wraithking, and Necrophos nerfs they understand why their winrates are high and don't believe it is because they are too strong. People are not as dumb as you think.

    I think the purpose of responding to threads isn't to tell anyone they are wrong, but to hopefully move the conversation into a direction that is useful for everyone. I'm mostly interested in having discussions about what in particular each individual thinks is lacking or what is awesome they want more of. I think it's unlikely the reason an individual is or isn't having fun in Hearthstone is to the overall win rate of a class being X percent over X million games across all skill levels. I haven't looked nearly deep enough into third party statistics to determine their accuracy so I can't really comment on that.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    yea but what about murlocs? if you could be any murloc which one would you be?

    Old Murk-Eye because he's Wild. (I'm funny)

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    My theory is that you guys balance as much on fun as competitiveness so I understand why Priest got the nerf stick. Even if a class is the worst it can still be nerfed even more if it is too unfun to play against.

    While the part about balancing as much on fun as competitiveness is true, the hope is to address that by introducing strategies that don't give you a hopeless feeling to lose against and are still fun to play. Losing is never fun, but losing to a C'Thun Druid that worked very hard over the course of the game to make a big C'Thun is easier to swallow than getting chipped down a little bit and losing to double combo.

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    In their.... defense (?): from what I've picked up from both HotS and HS discussions of statistics Blizzard really sucks in the statistical analysis department. (I say this as a scientist that does large scale data analysis as part of his job.)

    I honestly don't think Blizz knows how to leverage the data they have to a clean effect. And, to be fair, the skills that let you do that are still pretty hard to get at the moment.

    I think I mentioned this above, but we have access to (and utilize) a wide variety of statistics from individual card power level, deck archetype performance at any selection of MMR/rank we choose, to analysis of our individual best players and their deck choices/matchups. I'm not sure where the idea of us having only one statistic that shows win rates across all players regardless of deck or skill level comes from, but it is not accurate. I could be watching your game right now. YES YOU. (ok not really, but srs we have lots of stats)

  • Iksar

    Posted 9 years, 4 months ago (Source)

    Though that's a relatively small sample size. My stats for instance, since Whispers release, are completely different: I've actually faced Mages the most (15.3%), only 12.5% Warrior and 6.8% Priest in 2200 ranked games (I only hit legend once, though).

    I think the biggest issue here is that blizzard is looking at the overall data including rank 25 players that play 5 games of priest each month and nothing else - they stated the classes are incredibly well balanced if you look at EVERY game (if I remember correctly classes varied between 52% and 47% overall winrate) - the issue with that is though, that doesn't mean the game is balanced at a higher or even professional level.

    For some reson they don't acknowledge this :/

    This isn't very accurate. We look at and evaluate statistics at every level of play. Win rates of classes are surprisingly similar across all skill levels in most cases. Rogue has traditionally been the class that sees the most fluctuation at different levels if I had to pick one. There are some decks like old Patron, Miracle, Freeze Mage that have much higher win rates the higher skill player you go, but there are only a few examples of that.




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