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This question has the Mercenaries discord on fire. People have different interpretations of DeckTech's tweets and of language on the Blizzard shop. It goes from "we still don't really know" to "it's obvious, you're dumb". Devs need to address if before casuals get mad next week. https://t.co/SyDxtNDxCf

This question has the Mercenaries discord on fire. People have different interpretations of DeckTech's tweets and of language on the Blizzard shop. It goes from "we still don't really know" to "it's obvious, you're dumb". Devs need to address if before casuals get mad next week. https://t.co/SyDxtNDxCf

  • hs_Pasca
    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
    This question has the Mercenaries discord on fire. People have different interpretations of DeckTech's tweets and of language on the Blizzard shop. It goes from "we still don't really know" to "it's obvious, you're dumb". Devs need to address if before casuals get mad next week. https://t.co/SyDxtNDxCf

    • hsdecktech
      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
      @hs_Pasca What’s the uncertainty here? Can’t fix when we don’t know what needs addressing.

      • hs_Pasca
        Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
        @hsdecktech I'll make a recap after I quench the discord wildfire

        • hsdecktech
          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
          @hs_Pasca Much appreciated

      • RidiculousHat
        Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
        @hsdecktech @hs_Pasca i read it as "cosmetic upgrades from bundles allow you to play a hero you haven't opened from packs yet and dup protection counts this as owning the hero". seemed clear to me but maybe i'm missing something

        • thedizzyfly
          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
          @RidiculousHat @hsdecktech @hs_Pasca Also read it as such

          • hsdecktech
            Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
            @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca This was what I intended, but happy to clarify/look into whether I misunderstood something once I understand where the confusion was.

            • hs_Pasca
              Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
              @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat Some people have a hard time understanding complex information by reading about it if they have preconceived ideas. This seems to be the case here. Your explanation in the oct 1st thread is as clear as it gets but a minority of people are either still confused or still unhappy.

              • hsdecktech
                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                @hs_Pasca @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat Oh, well, I can’t do much about that. Hopefully once they give the game a shot they’ll come around a bit, or accept it’s just not for them. But if there’s something I *can* give clarity on, I’m happy to try.

              • hs_Pasca
                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat After sorting out pure trolling and unaware newbs, I find that this issue is simply the one that ended up being chosen by the folks who want to express negativity. I can ban them from discord but I want to warn you that you will probably hear about this on launch day. 2/3

                • hs_Pasca
                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                  @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat Also some of this (the concept of portrait versus the merc itself) is genuinely confusing at first and people who come into a conversation to ask this question are thrown off by the fact that the answer is so complex (not just yes or no).

                  • hs_Pasca
                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                    @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat Sorry to have bothered you I should have sorted things out before making a tweet. Your first explanation was fine and I think I mistook (in part) for actual concerns. trolling

                    • hsdecktech
                      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                      @hs_Pasca @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat Not a bother, so no worries, bud. :)

                • hsdecktech
                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                  @hs_Pasca @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat I appreciate the heads up, and all you have done and are still doing for the community! Hopefully that Merc’s discord has a good time once it goes live.

                • DanFriedman81
                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                  @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat You know, I tried to be polite and as clear about this on the discord as possible. If you think the statements on this are clear, it is because you do not understand Hearthstone pack mechanics.

                  • DanFriedman81
                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                    @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat In addition to the published pack odds (Legendary every 20 packs), there are underlying mechanisms that govern the what's in your Hearthstone packs. Each pack opening is not an independent event.

                    • DanFriedman81
                      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                      @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat There is a pity timer, which increases your odds of getting a legendary for each pack you do not get one. A 1 in 20 event in a random system can go 100 or more independent rolls without occurring. The pity timer caps it at 40 for HS packs: https://t.co/gFezzv20b4

                      • DanFriedman81
                        Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                        @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat This is the mechanic that renders the outcome of opening 100 packs on an expansion launch or whatever relatively predictable.

                        • DanFriedman81
                          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                          @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat The fact that the "base" versions of the bundled diamond legendaries continue to exist in your pool may change the odds of collecting the entire set, or may change the odds on how many legendary skins you can get from your packs depending on what they share a loot pool with.

                          • DanFriedman81
                            Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                            @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat This is not how it works in base Hearthstone. If you buy a bundle that comes with a golden legendary card, the non-golden version will not appear in a pack until you have all the legendaries because of dupe protection.

                            • DanFriedman81
                              Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                              @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat If you buy a Tavern Pass that comes with Diamond Varian, neither golden Varian nor base Varian will appear in your packs because of duplicate protection. So many of us expected getting diamond LK, Diablo, Sylvanas to screen the base versions the same way with mercs.

                              • DanFriedman81
                                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly @RidiculousHat There are 16 total legends in packs, excluding free Grommash, so the expected number of total packs to open every legend was 260 if you got the 3 freebies with the bundles. If those characters actually remain in a shared pool, then the total is 320, which is a big difference.

                                • RidiculousHat
                                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                  @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly the guaranteed slot has dupe protection so if you roll a legendary you won't get something you can already play. this is just like regular hs

                                  • DanFriedman81
                                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                    @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly The guaranteed slot is immaterial. The concern is the pity timer.

                                    • RidiculousHat
                                      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                      @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly the pity timer mechanism is not directly disclosed for regular hs via official sources and i wouldn't expect to see details here either. wouldn't be surprised if dupe protection applies in a player beneficial way here but we won't get clarity on that directly

                                      • DanFriedman81
                                        Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                        @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly Yes. So if you get base Diablo, LK or Sylvanas after you bought the bundle, it isn't clear if that pull cost you a legendary merc or a legendary skin or nothing at all. People who gets dupes after buying a preorder will be upset, and justifiably so.

                                        • RidiculousHat
                                          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                          @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly i dunno man, this only seems like an issue in really fringe scenarios with a bunch of base assumptions that actively work against the player who just spent a bunch of money. not taking that bet

                                          • DanFriedman81
                                            Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                            @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly I don't see how it is fringe. If there are 16 mercs and these are 3 of them, then one in 5.2 legendary pulls will be one of the base versions of those 3 mercs. If they are in a shared pool with other legendary mercs then everyone who bought 3 bundles is likely to get a dupe.

                                            • DanFriedman81
                                              Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                              @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly If the system here were as player-friendly as the system in base Hearthstone, then the base version of the bundle legendaries would be screened from packs by dupe protection just like base Varian is screened from packs for people who got Diamond Varian from Tavern Pass.

                                              • RidiculousHat
                                                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly we do not know the specifics of the pity timer because the pity timer is not public info and has been community investigated. we also don't know exactly how the dupe protection works for portraits. you're assuming worst case for everything.

                                                • DanFriedman81
                                                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                  @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly My understanding is that the base version of the bundled legendary can appear in the packs because the bundled item is technically just a diamond skin. So what does the base version share a pool with? What does it share a pity timer with?

                                                  • RidiculousHat
                                                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                    @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly this isn't public info, just like in constructed hearthstone. why not chill out and assume they're not trying to screw you

                                                    • DanFriedman81
                                                      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                      @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly What are the possible answers? It is either in the loot pool and shares a pity timer with legendary mercs, or it shares a pity timer with legendary skins. Either way, this is bad for people who preordered.

                                                      • RidiculousHat
                                                        Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                        @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly or dupe protection protects you if you get a legendary highroll and you get something you can't currently play, in which case we are happy and there is no need to fret

                                                        • DanFriedman81
                                                          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                          @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly He said you can get the base versions of the bundled legendaries in your packs. Dupe protection should prevent that from happening.

                                                          • RidiculousHat
                                                            Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                            @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly okay so then maybe instead of a coin for that hero it's a base card instead? seems fine?

                                                            • DanFriedman81
                                                              Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                              @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly What it shares a loot pool is totally ambiguous. What it shares a pity timer with is impossible to determine. If I get this in my packs, am I just supposed to assume it didn't cost me anything without knowing the underlying math?

                                                              • RidiculousHat
                                                                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly are you supposed to assume that early adopters are getting boned by the game on day 1 for spending money? this is a mode with cosmetic portraits in packs. this is likely functionally equivalent to opening a portrait except you got the diamond one first instead of last.

                                                                • DanFriedman81
                                                                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                  @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly I have no idea. I expected the Lich King bundle with diamond lich king to contain the Lich King merc and his diamond portrait. I did not expect the Lich King merc to remain in the legendary loot pool as a drop. The fact that he does makes the bundle a lot worse.

                                                                  • DanFriedman81
                                                                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                    @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly It doesn't make sense that they would bone the people who paid for pre-orders. But it looks like that's what they're doing.

                                                                    • RidiculousHat
                                                                      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                      @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly only looks like that to you that i've seen

                                                                      • DanFriedman81
                                                                        Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                        @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly That is because most people don't know about this. But I guarantee you that "I bought Lich King bundle and got Lich King in my packs" is going to be the main topic of discussion on Discord and reddit and forums on launch day. I don't know why they are letting that happen.

                                                                        • RidiculousHat
                                                                          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                          @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly it is difficult to have a conversation when you are unwilling to accept that maybe the reality is at odds with your assumptions. "i don't know why they are letting that happen" means that no way around this could possibly exist. i think you are wrong.

                                                                          • DanFriedman81
                                                                            Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                            @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly Do you think that most people who buy the Lich King bundle and then get Lich King in their packs are going to be cool with it?

                                                                            • RidiculousHat
                                                                              Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                              @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly the way this question is framed implies that it is a guaranteed outcome. honestly if the packs work how i'd expect it will just be in place of LK coins and people will already be overwhelmed by opening portraits of mercs they already own too. did you refund your bundle?

                                                                              • DanFriedman81
                                                                                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                                @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly It is guaranteed to happen to somebody. And the more pre-orders somebody gets, the more likely it is that they'll hit this. Depending on what loot pool the base merc goes into, it will either be fairly common or fairly uncommon. It shouldn't happen at all.

                                                                                • RidiculousHat
                                                                                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                                  @DanFriedman81 @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly so did you refund your bundle

                                                                                  • DanFriedman81
                                                                                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                                    @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @thedizzyfly Not yet. But I want answers on this.

                                                                                    • hsdecktech
                                                                                      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                                                                                      @DanFriedman81 @RidiculousHat @hs_Pasca @thedizzyfly Hey Dan, I’ve been following along. I hear your complaint, but unfortunately don’t have more to share to answer your question. I can say there will be other offers that do not include cosmetic skins, if those types of offers feel like better value to you.

        • heygrapejamy
          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
          @RidiculousHat @hsdecktech @hs_Pasca I saw this going down in the discord and was going to say “If you get the Diablo bundle you can’t get base Diablo until you have all legendaries already” but then I thought about it and realized I wasn’t even 100% sure.

          • RidiculousHat
            Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
            @heygrapejamy @hsdecktech @hs_Pasca the "my only Merc in this pack is the one I bought already" is something that would only ever come up if you bought the pre-order, opened a ton of packs, and had a mostly full collection already - it would almost always just be a double Merc pack instead I think

            • RidiculousHat
              Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
              @heygrapejamy @hsdecktech @hs_Pasca but yeah the elevator pitch explanations of this system have a lot of asterisks

              • hsdecktech
                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                @RidiculousHat @heygrapejamy @hs_Pasca I didn't design the system or have this discussion with the people who did, but I'm guessing that the idea was to make it as simple as possible for players to get the different Merc items--just open packs and let the computer figure it out.

                • hsdecktech
                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                  @RidiculousHat @heygrapejamy @hs_Pasca The problem we're getting here is that the most engaged players want to figure it out themselves, too.

                • hs_Pasca
                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                  @hsdecktech @RidiculousHat @heygrapejamy Don't worry, when it launches we'll be busy playing and we'll have no more time for asking nit-picky questions

                  • hsdecktech
                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                    @hs_Pasca @RidiculousHat @heygrapejamy 🤞

                  • use252
                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                    @hs_Pasca @hsdecktech @RidiculousHat @heygrapejamy Wait, just one more nit-picky question. Will the innkeeper scream diamond legendary if we open one?

                    • hsdecktech
                      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                      @use252 @hs_Pasca @RidiculousHat @heygrapejamy I sure hope so!
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