Bluetracker

Tracks Blizzard employees across various accounts.

My 2021 Most Played Games: 1 - Hearthstone 2 - League of Legends 3 - Valorant 4 - Slay the Spire 5 - Vigor

My 2021 Most Played Games: 1 - Hearthstone 2 - League of Legends 3 - Valorant 4 - Slay the Spire 5 - Vigor

Iksar

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

My 2021 Most Played Games: 1 - Hearthstone 2 - League of Legends 3 - Valorant 4 - Slay the Spire 5 - Vigor

BoringSong

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@IksarHS What level is your League of Legends?🤔

Iksar

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@BoringSong I’m a newb silver. 150 mastery score or something. I usually pick a new champion, play it to mastery 7, then pick a new one.

rifqimuzakki94

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@IksarHS @BoringSong Wild rift and TFT? :(

Iksar

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I tried wild rift but it seems weird to me to play wild rift when I already play so much pc league

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I feel like Wild Rift is just a better version of PC League.

Iksar

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong It’s great, mobile controls just aren’t comparable to KB/M to me. Control is king.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong It definitely makes me wonder about how much potential there is for better input devices. Like, it should be obvious when anyone stops and thinks about it, but the optimal input for a shooter isn't M+K, or Dual Joysticks. It's Joystick movement + Mouse aiming.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong And for MOBAs, optimal would again be Joystick movement + Mouse aiming+abilities. Why hasn't that happened?

Iksar

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I already own a mouse and keyboard and I’m very comfortable with them, hard to imagine using a different setup on pc in the same way I wouldn’t ever buy a racing wheel to to my pc to play racing games. It’s probably optimal, though.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Sure, it’s not an average user thing. But I’m surprised nobody’s made it a power user option. (I think the answer is just that it requires collaboration from both gave devs at hardware devs, and isn’t a priority.)

ToastieNL

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong turns out that, once again, Nintendo is way ahead of the curve! https://t.co/tdDsrQp6ad

ToastieNL

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong (okay maybe make the aiming a tiny bit more accurate that whatever the Wii tried to do, but it's not that far off lol)

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@ToastieNL @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Yeah, that was a nice attempt. I think the hardware options are out there, though not optimized. But none of these games support joystick movement with mouse aiming, *simultaneously*, as far as I’ve seen. Destiny/Halo/etc all swap between full controller mode and full M+K mode.

olandgren

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon Not enough buttons - giving up either movement or aim to activate your abilities. There's probably a really cool Archero-style MOBA to be made where your skills autoactivate J+Mouse is also just cognitively way harder because you need to track two distinct points of interest.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@olandgren Errr… huh? Mice come with a billion buttons. Joysticks come paired with tons of buttons too, and require 1/3 the fingers to use? And I’m not sure I understand the cognitive comparison.

olandgren

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon Those buttons are harder to use/time than keystrokes. You have skills, camera movement, pings - even for an MMO mouse plus flightstick you're close. J+m means you can simultaneously be inputting movement + skill, where m-primary forces partitions - either aiming or moving.

olandgren

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon Not a hill I'll die on but I feel like introducing additional character control complexity to a genre that already has huge knowledge and strategy burdens is tough.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@olandgren Hmm. I feel like we must be talking past each other, or talking about different things, or misunderstanding something. Nothing I'm talking about is harder/slower than keystrokes. J+M does indeed mean simultaneously moving and using/aiming abilities, which is exactly the point.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@olandgren All input forms for shooters and MMOs already do simultaneous movement+aim (whether that's WASD+Mouse or Joy+Mouse). MOBAs are frankly an oddity in that they require constant context swapping, overloading one input for both. That's one of the big upgrades of Wild Rift over LoL.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@olandgren WR letting you finally have simultaneous movement and ability usage in a MOBA is probably the single biggest reason I would argue WR controls are better than LoL controls. LoL feels like playing WoW via click-to-move movement only.

holinka

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @olandgren Don’t you use an orbweaver? With the thumb stick? I feel like that’s sort of what you’re getting at.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@holinka @olandgren Yes, exactly, except the thumbstick on it isn't a real analog thumbstuck, it's 8-direction buttons. I guess I should clarify that everywhere I say 'joystick' above, I mean analog. The fine vector control is the point.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@holinka @olandgren (And if it was a real analog thumbstick, I don't know of any game that would actually support it.)

holinka

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @olandgren Yeah. I’ve had similar thoughts through the years. Essentially want an Xbox Pro controller on the left hand and a 5 button mouse on the right hand. 😂

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@holinka @olandgren Yes. *Exactly*. Hardware wise, we could just do that right now (literally just holding the controller in the left hand, not holding the right side of it). So I guess the onus is on the game devs to support simultaneous controller+mouse.

DevSpacePrez

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren Some games support both right now so you could sorta make it work, although aren't designed for simultaneous use so the UI would flip back and forth real fast. It wouldn't take *that much* to do though, but you do sorta run into a problem with balance for competitive games.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren Yeah, that's the problem. Apex and Halo and Destiny all allow you to *swap* between M+K and Controller on the fly, but it's not instant, usually takes 0.5-1sec as far as I've seen, and is modal. (It needs to enable/disable aim assist, swaps UI around, etc.)

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren One interesting seen I've seen some Apex pros dabble with is swap between M+K and Controller depending on what weapons they find (some weapons are regarded as stronger on controller due to benefitting more from aim assist).

DevSpacePrez

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren I used to do this in battlefield; I'd use M&KB for ground running and shooting, but would swap to a controller from my lap whenever I got in an airplane. Found the mouse controls for airplanes to be very awkward.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren Oh yeah, that sounds exactly right.

BenjyHecht

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren So something like the Wii nunchuck plugged into a mouse?

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@BenjyHecht @holinka @olandgren Yep. (well, the physical connection there isn't ideal, but the controller forms is, yes.)

olandgren

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon Apologies for disappearing from the conversation - a nap turned into a sleep. We were definitely talking past each other. @coil780 hit the input precision point I was trying to make in another adjacent thread - side mouse / thumb activation on stick impact your movement.

olandgren

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @coil780 I agree that it's possible to make a MOBA that feels good with simultaneous movement + ability usage (WR did!), but you need to create space for the player to be able to reasonably process the situation (whether that be GCD, slower TTK, animlock, removing strategic info).

olandgren

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @coil780 The genre is (IMO) largely defined by the ability for either strategic or tactical mastery to be something you can index in and succeed (outside 0.5% where you need both), and I think the compromises that would be needed for J+M pushes that balance too far towards tactical only.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@olandgren @coil780 I just don't see what "compromises" you're seeing here. How does replacing WASD with a thumbstick damage a high strategic skill cap? (And so much so that it overcomes the massive strategic increase that it imparts.)

kurtismcc

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Pikmin on Wii controller says hello. Joystick + pointy thing. Mouse doesn’t get standardized because you can’t lay on the couch with a flat mouse pad (if you have a comfy couch.)

kurtismcc

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I would sell… things… for that input style in Pokémon Unite.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@kurtismcc @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Yup.

coil780

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@kurtismcc @Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Steam Controller tried to find the hybrid... closer to joystick+trackball, though. A lot of games don't like to read controller/mouse input simultaneously, though. And each control scheme also relies on the "other" hand for buttons - controller paddle buttons have potential.🤔

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@coil780 @kurtismcc @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Mice have buttons, controllers have paddles.

BrokeTheMeta

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@IksarHS @Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I was told @IksarHS hates control.

Chadd Nervigg

Posted 3 years, 8 months ago (Source)

@BrokeTheMeta @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Nah, that's me.

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My 2021 Most Played Games:

1 - Hearthstone
2 - League of Legends
3 - Valorant
4 - Slay the Spire
5 - Vigor (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477690348625272835">Iksar</a>)
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@IksarHS What level is your League of Legends?🤔 (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477690614191988743">None</a>)
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@BoringSong I’m a newb silver. 150 mastery score or something. I usually pick a new champion, play it to mastery 7, then pick a new one. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477694936224919554">Iksar</a>)
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@IksarHS @BoringSong Wild rift and TFT? :( (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477732063742595073">None</a>)
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@rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I tried wild rift but it seems weird to me to play wild rift when I already play so much pc league (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477740165019815937">Iksar</a>)
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@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I feel like Wild Rift is just a better version of PC League. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477743634078306305">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong It’s great, mobile controls just aren’t comparable to KB/M to me. Control is king. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477748796431863811">Iksar</a>)
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@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong It definitely makes me wonder about how much potential there is for better input devices.

Like, it should be obvious when anyone stops and thinks about it, but the optimal input for a shooter isn't M+K, or Dual Joysticks. It's Joystick movement + Mouse aiming. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477752032257662978">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong And for MOBAs, optimal would again be Joystick movement + Mouse aiming+abilities.

Why hasn't that happened? (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477752775962349569">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I already own a mouse and keyboard and I’m very comfortable with them, hard to imagine using a different setup on pc in the same way I wouldn’t ever buy a racing wheel to to my pc to play racing games. It’s probably optimal, though. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477753394412470272">Iksar</a>)
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@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Sure, it’s not an average user thing. But I’m surprised nobody’s made it a power user option. (I think the answer is just that it requires collaboration from both gave devs at hardware devs, and isn’t a priority.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477754183323250689">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong turns out that, once again, Nintendo is way ahead of the curve! https://t.co/tdDsrQp6ad (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477755384722956289">None</a>)
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@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong (okay maybe make the aiming a tiny bit more accurate that whatever the Wii tried to do, but it's not that far off lol) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477755526268157953">None</a>)
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@ToastieNL @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Yeah, that was a nice attempt. I think the hardware options are out there, though not optimized. But none of these games support joystick movement with mouse aiming, *simultaneously*, as far as I’ve seen. Destiny/Halo/etc all swap between full controller mode and full M+K mode. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477760939814371333">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon Not enough buttons - giving up either movement or aim to activate your abilities. There's probably a really cool Archero-style MOBA to be made where your skills autoactivate

J+Mouse is also just cognitively way harder because you need to track two distinct points of interest. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477753838132084737">None</a>)
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@olandgren Errr… huh? Mice come with a billion buttons. Joysticks come paired with tons of buttons too, and require 1/3 the fingers to use?

And I’m not sure I understand the cognitive comparison. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477760144326868992">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon Those buttons are harder to use/time than keystrokes. You have skills, camera movement, pings - even for an MMO mouse plus flightstick you're close.

J+m means you can simultaneously be inputting movement + skill, where m-primary forces partitions - either aiming or moving. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477763759255044098">None</a>)
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@Celestalon Not a hill I'll die on but I feel like introducing additional character control complexity to a genre that already has huge knowledge and strategy burdens is tough. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477765375135649792">None</a>)
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@olandgren Hmm. I feel like we must be talking past each other, or talking about different things, or misunderstanding something. Nothing I'm talking about is harder/slower than keystrokes.

J+M does indeed mean simultaneously moving and using/aiming abilities, which is exactly the point. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477768896572657664">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@olandgren All input forms for shooters and MMOs already do simultaneous movement+aim (whether that's WASD+Mouse or Joy+Mouse). MOBAs are frankly an oddity in that they require constant context swapping, overloading one input for both. That's one of the big upgrades of Wild Rift over LoL. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477769989708926976">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@olandgren WR letting you finally have simultaneous movement and ability usage in a MOBA is probably the single biggest reason I would argue WR controls are better than LoL controls. LoL feels like playing WoW via click-to-move movement only. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477770579205705728">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @olandgren Don’t you use an orbweaver? With the thumb stick? I feel like that’s sort of what you’re getting at. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477773021473431556">None</a>)
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@holinka @olandgren Yes, exactly, except the thumbstick on it isn't a real analog thumbstuck, it's 8-direction buttons. I guess I should clarify that everywhere I say 'joystick' above, I mean analog. The fine vector control is the point. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477774021202628610">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@holinka @olandgren (And if it was a real analog thumbstick, I don't know of any game that would actually support it.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477774209665228802">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @olandgren Yeah. I’ve had similar thoughts through the years. Essentially want an Xbox Pro controller on the left hand and a 5 button mouse on the right hand. 😂 (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477774985733103616">None</a>)
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@holinka @olandgren Yes. *Exactly*. Hardware wise, we could just do that right now (literally just holding the controller in the left hand, not holding the right side of it). So I guess the onus is on the game devs to support simultaneous controller+mouse. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477775446955597824">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren Some games support both right now so you could sorta make it work, although aren't designed for simultaneous use so the UI would flip back and forth real fast.

It wouldn't take *that much* to do though, but you do sorta run into a problem with balance for competitive games. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477777322216468497">None</a>)
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@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren Yeah, that's the problem. Apex and Halo and Destiny all allow you to *swap* between M+K and Controller on the fly, but it's not instant, usually takes 0.5-1sec as far as I've seen, and is modal. (It needs to enable/disable aim assist, swaps UI around, etc.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477778177099374598">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren One interesting seen I've seen some Apex pros dabble with is swap between M+K and Controller depending on what weapons they find (some weapons are regarded as stronger on controller due to benefitting more from aim assist). (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477778575944077313">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren I used to do this in battlefield; I'd use M&KB for ground running and shooting, but would swap to a controller from my lap whenever I got in an airplane.

Found the mouse controls for airplanes to be very awkward. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477778845273055234">None</a>)
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@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren Oh yeah, that sounds exactly right. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477779032305332225">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren So something like the Wii nunchuck plugged into a mouse? (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477778322604003330">None</a>)
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@BenjyHecht @holinka @olandgren Yep. (well, the physical connection there isn't ideal, but the controller forms is, yes.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477778919558303745">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon Apologies for disappearing from the conversation - a nap turned into a sleep.

We were definitely talking past each other. @coil780 hit the input precision point I was trying to make in another adjacent thread - side mouse / thumb activation on stick impact your movement. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477859568621293574">None</a>)
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@Celestalon @coil780 I agree that it's possible to make a MOBA that feels good with simultaneous movement + ability usage (WR did!), but you need to create space for the player to be able to reasonably process the situation (whether that be GCD, slower TTK, animlock, removing strategic info). (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477860335964934145">None</a>)
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@Celestalon @coil780 The genre is (IMO) largely defined by the ability for either strategic or tactical mastery to be something you can index in and succeed (outside 0.5% where you need both), and I think the compromises that would be needed for J+M pushes that balance too far towards tactical only. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477861604062425091">None</a>)
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@olandgren @coil780 I just don't see what "compromises" you're seeing here. How does replacing WASD with a thumbstick damage a high strategic skill cap? (And so much so that it overcomes the massive strategic increase that it imparts.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477867170709184512">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Pikmin on Wii controller says hello.

Joystick + pointy thing.

Mouse doesn’t get standardized because you can’t lay on the couch with a flat mouse pad (if you have a comfy couch.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477760831647477761">None</a>)
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@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I would sell… things… for that input style in Pokémon Unite. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477761048539058176">None</a>)
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@kurtismcc @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Yup. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477761132089647104">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@kurtismcc @Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Steam Controller tried to find the hybrid... closer to joystick+trackball, though.

A lot of games don't like to read controller/mouse input simultaneously, though. And each control scheme also relies on the "other" hand for buttons - controller paddle buttons have potential.🤔 (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477780271894122498">None</a>)
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@coil780 @kurtismcc @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Mice have buttons, controllers have paddles. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477781402250727426">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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@IksarHS @Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I was told @IksarHS hates control. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477752187660816385">None</a>)
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@BrokeTheMeta @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Nah, that's me. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477752287296585729">Chadd Nervigg</a>)
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Tweet

My 2021 Most Played Games:

1 - Hearthstone
2 - League of Legends
3 - Valorant
4 - Slay the Spire
5 - Vigor (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477690348625272835">Source</a>)

@IksarHS What level is your League of Legends?🤔

@BoringSong I’m a newb silver. 150 mastery score or something. I usually pick a new champion, play it to mastery 7, then pick a new one. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477694936224919554">Source</a>)

@IksarHS @BoringSong Wild rift and TFT? :(

@rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I tried wild rift but it seems weird to me to play wild rift when I already play so much pc league (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477740165019815937">Source</a>)

@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I feel like Wild Rift is just a better version of PC League. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477743634078306305">Source</a>)

@Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong It’s great, mobile controls just aren’t comparable to KB/M to me. Control is king. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477748796431863811">Source</a>)

@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong It definitely makes me wonder about how much potential there is for better input devices.

Like, it should be obvious when anyone stops and thinks about it, but the optimal input for a shooter isn't M+K, or Dual Joysticks. It's Joystick movement + Mouse aiming. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477752032257662978">Source</a>)

@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong And for MOBAs, optimal would again be Joystick movement + Mouse aiming+abilities.

Why hasn't that happened? (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477752775962349569">Source</a>)

@Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I already own a mouse and keyboard and I’m very comfortable with them, hard to imagine using a different setup on pc in the same way I wouldn’t ever buy a racing wheel to to my pc to play racing games. It’s probably optimal, though. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477753394412470272">Source</a>)

@IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Sure, it’s not an average user thing. But I’m surprised nobody’s made it a power user option. (I think the answer is just that it requires collaboration from both gave devs at hardware devs, and isn’t a priority.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477754183323250689">Source</a>)

@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong turns out that, once again, Nintendo is way ahead of the curve! https://t.co/tdDsrQp6ad

@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong (okay maybe make the aiming a tiny bit more accurate that whatever the Wii tried to do, but it's not that far off lol)

@ToastieNL @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Yeah, that was a nice attempt. I think the hardware options are out there, though not optimized. But none of these games support joystick movement with mouse aiming, *simultaneously*, as far as I’ve seen. Destiny/Halo/etc all swap between full controller mode and full M+K mode. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477760939814371333">Source</a>)
 
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@Celestalon Not enough buttons - giving up either movement or aim to activate your abilities. There's probably a really cool Archero-style MOBA to be made where your skills autoactivate

J+Mouse is also just cognitively way harder because you need to track two distinct points of interest.

@olandgren Errr… huh? Mice come with a billion buttons. Joysticks come paired with tons of buttons too, and require 1/3 the fingers to use?

And I’m not sure I understand the cognitive comparison. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477760144326868992">Source</a>)

@Celestalon Those buttons are harder to use/time than keystrokes. You have skills, camera movement, pings - even for an MMO mouse plus flightstick you're close.

J+m means you can simultaneously be inputting movement + skill, where m-primary forces partitions - either aiming or moving.

@Celestalon Not a hill I'll die on but I feel like introducing additional character control complexity to a genre that already has huge knowledge and strategy burdens is tough.

@olandgren Hmm. I feel like we must be talking past each other, or talking about different things, or misunderstanding something. Nothing I'm talking about is harder/slower than keystrokes.

J+M does indeed mean simultaneously moving and using/aiming abilities, which is exactly the point. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477768896572657664">Source</a>)

@olandgren All input forms for shooters and MMOs already do simultaneous movement+aim (whether that's WASD+Mouse or Joy+Mouse). MOBAs are frankly an oddity in that they require constant context swapping, overloading one input for both. That's one of the big upgrades of Wild Rift over LoL. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477769989708926976">Source</a>)

@olandgren WR letting you finally have simultaneous movement and ability usage in a MOBA is probably the single biggest reason I would argue WR controls are better than LoL controls. LoL feels like playing WoW via click-to-move movement only. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477770579205705728">Source</a>)

@Celestalon @olandgren Don’t you use an orbweaver? With the thumb stick? I feel like that’s sort of what you’re getting at.

@holinka @olandgren Yes, exactly, except the thumbstick on it isn't a real analog thumbstuck, it's 8-direction buttons. I guess I should clarify that everywhere I say 'joystick' above, I mean analog. The fine vector control is the point. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477774021202628610">Source</a>)

@holinka @olandgren (And if it was a real analog thumbstick, I don't know of any game that would actually support it.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477774209665228802">Source</a>)

@Celestalon @olandgren Yeah. I’ve had similar thoughts through the years. Essentially want an Xbox Pro controller on the left hand and a 5 button mouse on the right hand. 😂

@holinka @olandgren Yes. *Exactly*. Hardware wise, we could just do that right now (literally just holding the controller in the left hand, not holding the right side of it). So I guess the onus is on the game devs to support simultaneous controller+mouse. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477775446955597824">Source</a>)

@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren Some games support both right now so you could sorta make it work, although aren't designed for simultaneous use so the UI would flip back and forth real fast.

It wouldn't take *that much* to do though, but you do sorta run into a problem with balance for competitive games.

@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren Yeah, that's the problem. Apex and Halo and Destiny all allow you to *swap* between M+K and Controller on the fly, but it's not instant, usually takes 0.5-1sec as far as I've seen, and is modal. (It needs to enable/disable aim assist, swaps UI around, etc.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477778177099374598">Source</a>)

@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren One interesting seen I've seen some Apex pros dabble with is swap between M+K and Controller depending on what weapons they find (some weapons are regarded as stronger on controller due to benefitting more from aim assist). (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477778575944077313">Source</a>)

@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren I used to do this in battlefield; I'd use M&amp;KB for ground running and shooting, but would swap to a controller from my lap whenever I got in an airplane.

Found the mouse controls for airplanes to be very awkward.

@DevSpacePrez @holinka @olandgren Oh yeah, that sounds exactly right. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477779032305332225">Source</a>)
 
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@Celestalon @holinka @olandgren So something like the Wii nunchuck plugged into a mouse?

@BenjyHecht @holinka @olandgren Yep. (well, the physical connection there isn't ideal, but the controller forms is, yes.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477778919558303745">Source</a>)
 
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@Celestalon Apologies for disappearing from the conversation - a nap turned into a sleep.

We were definitely talking past each other. @coil780 hit the input precision point I was trying to make in another adjacent thread - side mouse / thumb activation on stick impact your movement.

@Celestalon @coil780 I agree that it's possible to make a MOBA that feels good with simultaneous movement + ability usage (WR did!), but you need to create space for the player to be able to reasonably process the situation (whether that be GCD, slower TTK, animlock, removing strategic info).

@Celestalon @coil780 The genre is (IMO) largely defined by the ability for either strategic or tactical mastery to be something you can index in and succeed (outside 0.5% where you need both), and I think the compromises that would be needed for J+M pushes that balance too far towards tactical only.

@olandgren @coil780 I just don't see what "compromises" you're seeing here. How does replacing WASD with a thumbstick damage a high strategic skill cap? (And so much so that it overcomes the massive strategic increase that it imparts.) (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477867170709184512">Source</a>)
 
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@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Pikmin on Wii controller says hello.

Joystick + pointy thing.

Mouse doesn’t get standardized because you can’t lay on the couch with a flat mouse pad (if you have a comfy couch.)

@Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I would sell… things… for that input style in Pokémon Unite.

@kurtismcc @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Yup. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477761132089647104">Source</a>)
 
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@kurtismcc @Celestalon @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Steam Controller tried to find the hybrid... closer to joystick+trackball, though.

A lot of games don't like to read controller/mouse input simultaneously, though. And each control scheme also relies on the "other" hand for buttons - controller paddle buttons have potential.🤔

@coil780 @kurtismcc @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Mice have buttons, controllers have paddles. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477781402250727426">Source</a>)
 
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@IksarHS @Celestalon @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong I was told @IksarHS hates control.

@BrokeTheMeta @IksarHS @rifqimuzakki94 @BoringSong Nah, that's me. (<a href="https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477752287296585729">Source</a>)
 
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