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Bluetracker

Tracks Blizzard employees across various accounts.

+1. Ladder play fosters more toxic communities and we could all enjoy pvp games much more if they weren’t trying to get us to care every match. Tons of good stuff in this article, read it! https://t.co/FBDLF09PCg

+1. Ladder play fosters more toxic communities and we could all enjoy pvp games much more if they weren’t trying to get us to care every match. Tons of good stuff in this article, read it! https://t.co/FBDLF09PCg

  • HS_Alec
    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
    +1. Ladder play fosters more toxic communities and we could all enjoy pvp games much more if they weren’t trying to get us to care every match. Tons of good stuff in this article, read it! https://t.co/FBDLF09PCg

    • derajn
      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
      @GW_Alec I disagree. Ladder fosters a meaningful progression path for many players that leads to extremely deep engagement which leads to many hours more than necessary to "solve" a meta. Tournaments can feel so much fresher because they lack of ability to get the same number of hours in.

      • derajn
        Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
        @GW_Alec Without that meaning/climb/ability to rank your progress, the game can lose meaning over time. It's the reason most people won't engage too deeply with tavern brawls and one of the key reasons a game like Artifact failed - its lack of a ladder and focus on tournaments.

        • derajn
          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
          @GW_Alec I do believe in this instance engagement can = fun. Many people find joy in winning and climbing. While it may frusrate some that they cant play their fun crazy "off meta" thing at the highest rank, nothing stops them playing it at lower ranks. People find more joy climbing tho.

          • derajn
            Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
            @GW_Alec But with all this, I do think tournaments compliment a ladder, and as pointed out in the article give outlets for different subsets of players - honers and innovators. Innovators will always be overtaken by honers in both formats given enough time. Ladder just moves at lightspeed

            • HS_Alec
              Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
              @derajn Honestly I think you’re missing the broader point here. Yes ladder can serve a purpose but it creates a less healthy ecosystem for all players if it’s the main way of playing the game. Games haven’t done a great job of creating healthy environments for players to get better yet.

              • derajn
                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                @GW_Alec I see the point but disagree w/ it. What makes something toxic/unhealthy? He made the same points on Artifact then refused to blame any parts of its failure on lack of a ladder. I think ladder IS healthy. maybe not for everyone but for many people its their preferred way to play

                • HS_Alec
                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                  @derajn How players treat each other in digital environments, the cumulative emotional effects of a match, the addictive nature of a design system, there’s quite a few more. But those are some things I would evaluate when considering if something is toxic/unhealthy.

    • RidiculousHat
      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
      @GW_Alec while i specifically value the convenience of ladder, i think richard's article misses some key points in favor of them that aren't immediately obvious: -the assumption that all ladders are based on even matches at all points is inaccurate -metagaming is a relevant skill

      • RidiculousHat
        Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
        @GW_Alec ladder systems heavily reward matchup knowledge - it's just a different ballgame. in current HS ladder, players who deplete multipliers early get to punch above their weight and feel accomplished - and at legend people want to win against evenly matched opponents

        • RidiculousHat
          Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
          @GW_Alec there are definitely significant upsides to tournament style play instead of laddering and significant downsides to a constantly floating rank, but this article is pretty heavily favored towards one side. he also seems to be fundamentally unwilling to "ignore rank"...

          • RidiculousHat
            Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
            @GW_Alec ...and i can say pretty confidently that doing well with something "off-meta" or just playing what you want once you get used to the idea of the floating number being less valuable is great. you know this too, i'm not giving you new info. just wish the article was more even

            • Lime_kalko
              Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
              @RidiculousHat @GW_Alec To paraphrase what brode said, "tournaments are only really for players at a certain skill range." It's no fun being the worst player in your bracket and it isn't that fun being able to just roll over everyone else. Tournaments don't cater as much to the extreme ends.

              • RidiculousHat
                Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                @Lime_kalko @GW_Alec when i speak as commissioner of THL, there are absolutely ways to make tournament play approachable and it absolutely stretches different muscles - it's super fun and "hits different" as they say but it as the *default* mode of how a game is played is a mistake imo

                • HS_Alec
                  Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                  @RidiculousHat @Lime_kalko This is thinking inside the current box a bit too much but yes THL is a solid example. If we are going to foster healthy online pvp environments there needs to be many other rewarding avenues of play than what we know as ladder. They need to valued by the game itself.

                  • derajn
                    Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                    @GW_Alec @RidiculousHat @Lime_kalko What would you consider being "valued by the game itself?"

                    • HS_Alec
                      Posted 3 years, 11 months ago (Source)
                      @derajn Oops missed “be” but yes speaking to other forms of play being treated by the game as worthwhile forms of play. Reward systems, achievements, forms of progression, etc. Some games do this well but many point back to ladder as being the only “legitimate” way to play.
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