Big shout out to Travis for taking the time to answer my questions! I was very positively surprised by how detailed the new progression based MMR system would be able to work. Furthermore, the upcoming PTR stealth changes sound very promising!
The only thing we're gonna have to work on in the future is this "Horde" faction he pledges allegiance to. Ewww.
Enjoy the interview guys!
Thanks for the great interview and the opportunity to get more in-depth on some of these changes. :)
I didn't quite get the point about losing - if you lose the game but played your hero well, will you lose less mmr points compared to losing AND playing your hero badly?
You'll be getting MMR adjustments based on individual performance whether you win or lose. You still only gain MMR when you win and lose MMR when you lose, but if you're performing beyond expectations for your current MMR, you'll gain more MMR on a win and lose less on a loss. The net effect is that, over the course of multiple games, you'll more quickly arrive at the higher MMR that's indicative of your skill.
Then the opposite is also true if you're under-performing your current MMR.
Once the data metrics are determined they system will be abused
The way the system functions, we aren't telling it what makes good play. It's simply measuring live games to determine what has proven effective for that particular situation.
So, to "game" the system, you have to win the game while executing in that situation in a way that players have already proven is how to play at a high proficiency level. Personally, I'd love to have games filled with folks playing like that. ;)
The assumption a lot of folks seemed to hop to is that there would be some singular stat that they could focus on to abuse things, which isn't true. Every stat we measure is used as part of the calculation for every situation. It's just a matter of weighting as some are more important than others for that situation. If you were to, say, focus solely on soaking XP with the assumption that its the most important stat, you'd likely be under-performing in other metrics that balances it out. If you aren't under-performing in other areas, but are soaking more XP than expected for that situation...you're actually playing better.
Are the adjustements (I know you can't get into details so people can't cheat the system) considering the type of hero you're playing ? For example, will having 200.000 structure damage as Zagara be more rewarded than having them as Zeratul or not ?
Yeah, not just hero, but also things like the battleground you're on, the region you're playing in, the game mode, the length of the game, the MMR band you're in, etc.
Will the bonus MMR be visible to players? Or will we still just see our ranked points gained/lost?
Not directly since MMR isn't visible, but we're looking at adding a Performance Adjustment that replaces the current Personal Rank Adjustment for the rank points gained/lost at the end of a match. That would reflect the performance metric for the match.
We're currently still debating whether to do that now or keep the Personal Rank Adjustment for a bit while the new system rolls out to limit how many things we're changing at once.
Well, Travis said that "The net effect is that, over the course of multiple games, you'll more quickly arrive at the higher MMR that's indicative of your skill. Then the opposite is also true if you're under-performing your current MMR."
Obviously it has to work both ways otherwise your have a MMR inflation. I'm just wondering if it is as accurate going down as going up.
The effect is similar both up and down. I wanted to focus on the positive side of things in my messaging, but if someone is at an MMR that's higher than their skill, their MMR will be accelerated downward in the same fashion.
What exactly is Personal Rank Adjustment then? The difference between your MMR and your rank? I think if you don't adjust rank points many will find that the new system is not better or worse than the old system because they won't be gaining/losing rank at any higher rate. While it may be true their MMR will be rising/lowering at a different rate, what matters to most players is their rank.
This is why you see so many "stuck in X rank" posts. People will not understand the difference in MMR versus rank. I understand Blizzard's reasons for keeping MMR hidden, but giving players more information about how the system works will help them understand.
Personal Rank Adjustment "pulls" your rank toward where it should be for your MMR to ensure that your rank and your MMR don't diverge too much. If your MMR is significantly different than your rank, Personal Rank Adjustment points help move the rank to catch up so if we left it in place, it would help keep ranks fairly aligned with MMR even as it moves more quickly.
Performance Adjustments for rank would do something similar, but in a different way.
have you guys thought about people drafting heroes they think they'll play better ignoring completely the desired comp: let's say Joe A picks Nova when he shoulda picked a healer cause he thinks he can win with Nova and get more MMR.
Sure, though that's no different than it is currently. Winning vs losing is still the biggest factor in your MMR adjustment and to see any positive MMR movement, you first have to win. The performance adjustment is just a modifier in how much you gain when you win (or lose when you lose).
If you're going to have a better chance at winning by playing that Nova you know really well instead of trying to fill as a healer you suck with, that's generally a good choice already. Really, the "failure" at that point was the whole team not communicating upfront and leaving the player who isn't good at playing healers to pick up the healer role.
Regarding the new performance based MMR changes, does this mean if my team has captured the winning altar on Towers of Doom and for the fun of it I walk into the enemy death zone and die, my MMR will be adversely affected from this little bit of fun?
Or perhaps there are 5 enemies killing my core and there are 4 allies dead. I have no chance to defend the core but rather than try and risk receiving an extra death I won't lose as much MMR if I stay in base?
Curious about this.
Everything is by time, including deaths. If you die in the last second of a match, its not going to mean much. Even a full death in the last minutes would really only be a minor modifier overall once diluted against your overall performance in the game.
The biggest factor for MMR adjustment is still whether you won or lost. Your overall performance is secondary to that and any particular moment is just a small part of that overall performance.
So you are saying, yes dying trying to defend the core will lower your MMR, but only by a little bit?
Great.
No, losing the game will lower your MMR. Dying will affect your overall performance metric to some degree based on how long you spent dead. It's impossible to say in a general sense, but dying while protecting your core in the last seconds of the game is unlikely to have any measurable impact relative to the rest of your performance in the match.
even if this is not discussion with regards to not filling and it is against what i would think how it should be (i would say that player should be able to fill, except in really fringe situations when you have only few heroes available for ranked and your healers get banned out), i think it is first at least somehow official statement on not filling while drafting.
not trying to put you in too much spotlight, of course, but i think this comment will be linked from now on :D but thx for it (even if i hope this approach gets changed :P )
It's more that nothing is quite black and white. There are situations where the right call is to hop on that healer too.
The best bet is to communicate upfront so you aren't trapping someone on a pick they aren't comfortable playing.
At the end of the day I just want to get into a game and focus on winning. Adding an additional element of how I can hedge my bets by altering my playstyle to try game the system and minimise any MMR/points hits from a loss is a distraction.
Completely understand and you should continue to do exactly that instead of worrying about trying to shift your gameplay in order to make some invisible number go up incrementally.
Does this mean that winning a game quickly and playing well will reward the same personal adjustment as having good stats in a long game?
Some people are concerned that players will want to artificially extend game lengths to try and pad their stats before winning. Especially in games where the opponent is greatly outmatched.
Yeah, definitely. Everything factors game time into it for that exact reason.
BlizzTravis
Thanks for the great interview and the opportunity to get more in-depth on some of these changes. :)
BlizzTravis
You'll be getting MMR adjustments based on individual performance whether you win or lose. You still only gain MMR when you win and lose MMR when you lose, but if you're performing beyond expectations for your current MMR, you'll gain more MMR on a win and lose less on a loss. The net effect is that, over the course of multiple games, you'll more quickly arrive at the higher MMR that's indicative of your skill.
Then the opposite is also true if you're under-performing your current MMR.
BlizzTravis
The way the system functions, we aren't telling it what makes good play. It's simply measuring live games to determine what has proven effective for that particular situation.
So, to "game" the system, you have to win the game while executing in that situation in a way that players have already proven is how to play at a high proficiency level. Personally, I'd love to have games filled with folks playing like that. ;)
The assumption a lot of folks seemed to hop to is that there would be some singular stat that they could focus on to abuse things, which isn't true. Every stat we measure is used as part of the calculation for every situation. It's just a matter of weighting as some are more important than others for that situation. If you were to, say, focus solely on soaking XP with the assumption that its the most important stat, you'd likely be under-performing in other metrics that balances it out. If you aren't under-performing in other areas, but are soaking more XP than expected for that situation...you're actually playing better.
BlizzTravis
It came up a couple times. Definitely still something we want to get in there, but don't have a timeline for when we'll be able to roll it out.
BlizzTravis
Yeah, not just hero, but also things like the battleground you're on, the region you're playing in, the game mode, the length of the game, the MMR band you're in, etc.
BlizzTravis
Not directly since MMR isn't visible, but we're looking at adding a Performance Adjustment that replaces the current Personal Rank Adjustment for the rank points gained/lost at the end of a match. That would reflect the performance metric for the match.
We're currently still debating whether to do that now or keep the Personal Rank Adjustment for a bit while the new system rolls out to limit how many things we're changing at once.
BlizzTravis
The effect is similar both up and down. I wanted to focus on the positive side of things in my messaging, but if someone is at an MMR that's higher than their skill, their MMR will be accelerated downward in the same fashion.
BlizzTravis
I'm psyched for Battle for Azeroth. Can't wait to kick some Alliance tail again. ;)
BlizzTravis
The comparisons are against like types to make sure they're fair. Wins vs wins. Loses vs loses.
BlizzTravis
Personal Rank Adjustment "pulls" your rank toward where it should be for your MMR to ensure that your rank and your MMR don't diverge too much. If your MMR is significantly different than your rank, Personal Rank Adjustment points help move the rank to catch up so if we left it in place, it would help keep ranks fairly aligned with MMR even as it moves more quickly.
Performance Adjustments for rank would do something similar, but in a different way.
BlizzTravis
I've been thinking the same thing.
BlizzTravis
Adjustments are both directions. If you're under-performing to expectations for your current MMR, you'll have negative adjustments.
The goal is to get you to the proper MMR for your skill as quickly as possible, whether that's up or down.
BlizzTravis
Sure, though that's no different than it is currently. Winning vs losing is still the biggest factor in your MMR adjustment and to see any positive MMR movement, you first have to win. The performance adjustment is just a modifier in how much you gain when you win (or lose when you lose).
If you're going to have a better chance at winning by playing that Nova you know really well instead of trying to fill as a healer you suck with, that's generally a good choice already. Really, the "failure" at that point was the whole team not communicating upfront and leaving the player who isn't good at playing healers to pick up the healer role.
BlizzTravis
Everything is by time, including deaths. If you die in the last second of a match, its not going to mean much. Even a full death in the last minutes would really only be a minor modifier overall once diluted against your overall performance in the game.
The biggest factor for MMR adjustment is still whether you won or lost. Your overall performance is secondary to that and any particular moment is just a small part of that overall performance.
BlizzTravis
I'm old...give me at least 45. ;)
BlizzTravis
No, losing the game will lower your MMR. Dying will affect your overall performance metric to some degree based on how long you spent dead. It's impossible to say in a general sense, but dying while protecting your core in the last seconds of the game is unlikely to have any measurable impact relative to the rest of your performance in the match.
BlizzTravis
I know...odd, huh?
BlizzTravis
It's more that nothing is quite black and white. There are situations where the right call is to hop on that healer too.
The best bet is to communicate upfront so you aren't trapping someone on a pick they aren't comfortable playing.
BlizzTravis
Completely understand and you should continue to do exactly that instead of worrying about trying to shift your gameplay in order to make some invisible number go up incrementally.
BlizzTravis
Yeah, definitely. Everything factors game time into it for that exact reason.