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Is it me or is blaze’s texture really low res?

When looking at him and his special tints he just looks really bad. The black lines on his shoulders have visible pixels for me. For me at least the entire model looks like Iam watching YouTube in 360p


  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Oh so its not the case of "We're purposely not keeping info from you guys" when we can't view the dragon in the shop or anywhere else when not ingame.

    It's the case of "We can't fit the dragon in the memory budget so we're all screwed." lol

    Would we perhaps see an update that would change this someday?

    It's more along the lines of where would we put her on the character or store screen. There's really not a lot of room. Or you'd get a tiny cute dragon. Pet dragons are cool but we like the bigger kind.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    pressing left and right arrows between blaze and hanzo sure shows a huge difference. i'd think his model is just kinda old and somehow he made it into the game just now, but somehow raynor and tychus look better, at least in texture department.

    still love the firebat though.

    Just to give some background on this. This isn't about the model being old. He's not. All our heroes use the same size texture sheet. This means our larger heroes like Blaze has the same size texture sheet as Hanzo.

    Since Hanzo is quite a bit smaller than Blaze you'll notice that his pixel density (the amount of pixels to describe a specific area) is higher. If you were able to check out our Hero Deep Dive at Blizzcon we went over this a little bit when we talked about texture budgets.

    Everything we do is for the game view. A side effect of this is that sometimes our larger heroes show a smaller pixel density in the store and character select.

    Thanks for taking an interest about the detail of our models!

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    If you made the texture sheet larger for larger models like every other game does your textures would be more consistent.

    Different games. Different budgets. Different allocations. Different resources. It's not that simple.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    really fascinating, thanks for the answer.

    though, if you don't mind, i went and checked ETC L800 skin and it seems to have quite a bit higher pixel density, even though his model is huge as well, or am i imagining things?

    That has to do with the way certain objects are mirrored and the surface area of certain areas. Also, with base skins we have to be a little bit more restrictive with our texture sheet usage to allow for expansion for skins akin to our master skins (if you remember pre 2.0).

    New skins like ETC L800 which is an offshoot from the base gets to use the entire sheet.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    I think I understand what you're talking about, but if so, Heroes of similar size (bigger ones) should have similar problems with their textures being stretched out due to their size and the base texture sheet size, no?

    For example, Azmodan's base skin from way back when has arguably more detail than Blaze. Azmodunk has no pixelation or blurriness either, but that one's a Legendary, so let's put in the exception hat. Even the Raider Rexxar has better quality flames on his armor, and even the grey, torn off or smudged off parts (on where his pieces of armor connect) look much better than Blaze's similar parts.

    Metallic parts on Warmaster Chen look great, too, but perhaps he's a tad smaller than Blaze.

    Wouldn't you guys want your 'base' Heroes to look just as good? That's the part I don't fully understand. The selling point of bundled skins is, one could say, mainly with the new effects, animations, voiceovers AND and alternate skin. I disagree that texture quality in particular should be the differentiating point between them, or at least be so much visible like in Blaze's case.

    Also:

    Also, with base skins we have to be a little bit more restrictive with our texture sheet usage to allow for expansion for skins akin to our master skins (if you remember pre 2.0).

    This is recent policy, correct? Because if you look at Hammer's base skin, the red, circular glowing parts on her treads (4 total), these are sharp, very visible, and if you compare the same parts with her pre-2.0 Master skin, they are considerably more blurry there, so this statement doesn't quite hold true.

    There appear to be some contradictions here.

    Believe it or not Azmodan has some creative mirroring and his surface area to texture ratio is a bit smaller than Blaze. They use the same texture space.

    Any skin that is not the base has had a portion of the texture sheet in preparation for expansion. This has always been the case with a few minor exceptions from early in the process (hammer might be in this area but she's also using creative mirroring). Warmaster Chen, Azmodunk is not a base skin and falls into the expansion territory.

    We always want our assets to look as good as they can. But there is a limit at which most computers can handle. No game has unlimited texture area. It's a balancing act between a computer's performance and making that asset look great while giving each character the ability to have a skins.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Then how is Alexstrasza's dragon model so good? It looks extremely well detailed to me yet its the hugest model in game (so far).

    The dragon is a special case. It uses the equivalent of two texture sheets. Because she's not on the screen all the time we were able to push this a little bit. But we had to make concessions elsewhere. The dragon has a lower polygon count than the Elf model since she's only seen in game and not on the character select or store.

    With that in mind, the Alexstrasza hero needed to be under a certain memory footprint we had to make sure the Dragon and the Elf form fit inside those boundaries. Blizzcon heroes usually stretch the limits of our character allocations. It's a fun challenge.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    First, thanks for all the info. Bit of a 3d artist myself, kind of suspected texture space was the issue. The comparison to hanzo being a smaller model makes perfect sense.

    Also im just throwing this one out there. Any chance you guys might make this HOTS dream a reality? Seriously, i need this more than my own skin. https://imgur.com/a/D47sY

    That's a fun idea :)

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    So, how are we going to solve the budgetary issue? Because, eventually, from a software engineering standpoint, throwing metric craptons of money for "resourcers" (people) eventually gets all problems solved if the context and the scope are well specified.

    It's not money. When we say budget we're talking about memory footprint. You mentioned engineering but we're not even talking about that.

    Think of your computer as a freeway. All these textures and models need to fit in cars that flow smoothly through that freeway. You put too many vehicles like those big rigs towing houses down a freeway and your freeway doesn't move smoothly. The memory footprint that has been established for characters is so that from the older computers to the top performing machines will be able to run Heroes.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    I wonder what more you could've done for Kel'Thuzad had he been given the Blizzcon tag. :>

    Any chance for an Upgraded Kel'Thuzad skin, the same way you gave one for Alexsz?

    Alexstrasza wasn't upgraded the way you think she was. What I meant by that is that the dragon is considered an FX model so it is bound by a slightly different rule set. Kel'Thuzad has the same size texture sheet as Alexstrasza's Elf form.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Kina, the texture on Ultra are fine. It feels like there is a big jump from Ultra to High, not so much from High to Medium. Low seems ok. It is like the texture for both blaze skins are overall low res when you set the "Texture Resolution" to High or Medium than it should be. Maybe it was an export issue.

    Part of it is compression of the textures. If you're interested there are articles about texture compression on game art forums and game development sites. There are tricks that we can do to maintain some of that compression down through the lower resolutions but in some cases like this one it's harder to resolve.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Just to add on another cool little fun fact - most heroes use at least partially mirrored texture sheets, but something I've seen hots use more recently is decals to add little details. I think D.Va was the first hero to feature the tech. This is so you can still mirror the material, but have different details for one side. I haven't actually looked at how Blaze is set out, so I don't know if he uses decals for his little touches that can't be mirrored.

    Decals are also disabled at lower graphics settings, just to even further lower the memory footprint of a hero.

    You're right :) We try to avoid decals being used in a way that provides such a major influence on how that character looks (e.g. Pajamathur Abathur) because those decals will disappear on low settings and on our rag doll death models. Really nice solution for higher performing computers though.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Pet dragons are cool but we like the bigger kind.

    It seems like not everybody agrees with that ;)

    You got me :)

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Ah, I see. Sorry for getting the wrong impression, but after some years in the business, the moment there is a discussion about how to approach a solution, most of the time it quickly derails into a cost discussion and how we are killing the profit margin and all that great stuff - so as soon the word "budget" was mentioned I immediately went there.

    To be totally honest with you guys, if you 've said "memory footprint" instead of budget I wouldn't have posted that :)

    Nonetheless thank you for the explanation and once again sorry for assuming a route for the discussion that wasn't there in the first place.

    Indeed. Breaking these terms down for a wider audience can be hard. Still working on that :)

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Does that mean Cho'Gall uses the equivalent of two texture sheets as well?

    It's the same texture sheet. It's about surface area. Some of the larger heroes don't have very complex armor like Firebat. When you have pieces that jet out or move back in on itself you'll notice that it increases the bits that need to be textured. Mirroring those things help but for the most part every surface needs something. Two texture sheets were used on the dragon because she was so long. Her wings also take up a good bit of space. If you ever get a chance to see under her wings it's the same texture as above. Even with her we had to do some creative mirroring.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Oh, I actually meant her skin! The Dragon Aspect one, I believe. Which is very reminiscent of the Master Skins of old. I was wondering if you could create something like it for Kel'Thuzad, something based on his original appearance but then... empowered. ;>

    I am such a Kel'Thuzad fan that despite owning his Eternal Lich/Emperor skin, and the many recolours of his standard appearance, I still stick to the standard and the appropriate colours. But, if I could get a skin which builds on to that... Well, that would be excellent.

    I really do miss the Master Skins!

    I'm glad you are a fan of ARCHLICH OF NAXXRAMAS, ESTEEMED LICH LORD OF THE PLAGUELANDS, COMMANDER OF THE DREAD NECROPOLIS, MASTER AND FOUNDER OF THE CULT OF THE DAMNED, FORMERLY OF THE COUNCIL OF THE SIX, CREATOR OF THE ABOMINATION, CORRUPTOR OF THE SUNWELL, SUMMONER OF ARCHIMONDE THE DEFILER, BETRAYER OF HUMANITY, FOUNDER AND FIRST DARKMASTER OF THE SCHOLOMANCE, SCHOOL OF DARK ARTS AND NECROMANCY. CREATOR AND MASTER OF THE FOUR HORSEMEN. CORRUPTOR OF THE ASHBRINGER, HEARTSTONE ENTHUSIAST AND CARING OWNER OF MR.BIGGLESWORTH THE CAT, THE MAJORDOMO TO THE LICH KING HIMSELF.

    There's room to give Kel'Thuzad more skins in the future. It's just a matter of when. :)

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    More than half of that text comes from me, haha! :D Awesome!

    :)

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    Couldn't you create higher res textures as an optional feature so that people who have higher end computers can get better textures, while those with lower-end PCs stay on the lower res textures?

    We already do that. There's something called Mip-mapping and that's why the higher settings use the higher texture settings.

    When you go up from say a 512x512 pixel texture to a 1024x1024 you're not going up in memory by 2. You're going up by a factor of 4. Which means that the size quadruples. There's a reason why games 10-15 years ago were less then 2 gigs and now some games are upwards of 60 gigs. All that fidelity takes space.

    There is a group of people who would love higher resolution textures because their machine can handle it. This also takes more time for the artist to author them. Not every asset is authored at a larger size. With unlimited time and unlimited textures every game could look like real life. We like to see our families too sometimes :) Thanks for your question.

  • KinaBREW

    Posted 6 years, 8 months ago (Source)

    What do you guys use to design? In-house stuff or Zbrush?

    We use Zbrush for sculpting and Max for low poly to create 3D models. Photoshop and 3D Coat for texturing.




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