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Legends of Runeterra | Posted by | 6 years, 2 months ago
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I need answers! Why wasn't this game a tie?!!

After many turns of my Shadow Isles control vs that 4000 IQ Heimerdinger deck thats showing up everywhere we hit the decisive finish, He had 1 HP on nexus I had 3. I swung with my 2 minions that if unblocked would do 10 damage. He had 2 minions to block but instead of blocking he played Get Excited targeting my nexus. I swiftly played Vile Feast in hopes that I could survive with one HP, but of course he had a mystic shot available as well. Then instead of putting up blockers he hit OK and everything went off. My 2 minions struck his nexus leaving him at -9 HP and his mystic shot brought me past the threshold to -1. But when the flashing colors were over it told me I lost, and I assumed it showed him victory.

 

We both dropped below 0, him even more so that I did. Why the hell did I lose?

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  • After many turns of my Shadow Isles control vs that 4000 IQ Heimerdinger deck thats showing up everywhere we hit the decisive finish, He had 1 HP on nexus I had 3. I swung with my 2 minions that if unblocked would do 10 damage. He had 2 minions to block but instead of blocking he played Get Excited targeting my nexus. I swiftly played Vile Feast in hopes that I could survive with one HP, but of course he had a mystic shot available as well. Then instead of putting up blockers he hit OK and everything went off. My 2 minions struck his nexus leaving him at -9 HP and his mystic shot brought me past the threshold to -1. But when the flashing colors were over it told me I lost, and I assumed it showed him victory.

     

    We both dropped below 0, him even more so that I did. Why the hell did I lose?

  • I don't know but this is how it is intended to happen. I mean, they can't fix anything about this interaction because it is one of the mechanics of the game. If you try to change it, you will break all of the game.

    For example, While I have a 10/5 Darius on board and Atrocity on my hand, I am waiting them to use their Vengeance first so I can kill my own Darius with Atrocity to win the game. If I use it before they use Vengeance, They counter my Atrocity with Vengeance or other spells that kills Darius or Deny. This interaction and mechanic makes the game more skillful and challenging.

    It feels frustrating to lose like that I can feel it because I also experienced that so much times against Ezreal decks but unfortunately it is one of the game's mechanic.

    • So then in theory specifically:

      Spells have more priority when calculating the winner of the game. If a nexus were to die from spell damage before the opposing died from the minions on the board, the spell nexus would 'die first' and the winner would be declared.

      So what if both nexus's die of spell damage? is it whichever spell killed a nexus first? If I were to mystic shot someones nexus and they mystic shotted me back would I lose?

      I have seen one scenario where there was a tie. It was in one of Scarra's videos and both players drew the exact amount of puffcaps to kill them both instantly

      I wonder then if that is the only way to achieve a tie. Because every other scenario has a predetermined order. And if that is the only way to achieve a tie in this game, I gotta say that they made some pretty robust systems. It aggravated me in the moment, but it makes sense once you put it into words

      • Quote From Carmik

        Spells have more priority when calculating the winner of the game. If a nexus were to die from spell damage before the opposing died from the minions on the board, the spell nexus would 'die first' and the winner would be declared.

        Sort of?  That's a slightly awkward way to phrase it, though.  A better way would be that when you announce an attack, you're creating a "stack" of events that will fire in a certain sequence: any special effects go first (e.g., Legion Saboteur), then your left-most minion's attack, 2nd-from-left, etc.  Then your opponent has opportunities to declare blockers, add a fast spell to the top of the stack meaning it happens before all the aforementioned, and/or play a burst spell (happens immediately)--and if he does any of those options, it goes back to you to cast any fast and/or burst spells, etc.  But spells don't have innate priority over everything: if I summon a Ravenous Butcher off a Cursed Keeper with a Phantom Prankster on board, you take that 1 damage and I get my abomination both instantaneously--you don't get an opportunity to snipe or Purify anything first because none of that creates a stack.  If I tried that same trick using a Glimpse Beyond, you would because that only happens at fast speed and it does create a stack.  Make sense?

        I wonder then if that is the only way to achieve a tie. Because every other scenario has a predetermined order. And if that is the only way to achieve a tie in this game, I gotta say that they made some pretty robust systems. It aggravated me in the moment, but it makes sense once you put it into words

        Maybe if I have 1 HP and attack you with a big overwhelm, and you have a chump blocker and either Phantom Prankster and/or the chump blocker is Legion Grenadier: I could see the game logic applying the special effects to damage my nexus should be applied simultaneously as the carry-over damage to your nexus from my overwhelm and ruling that game a tie.  I've thought about this a lot actually, but I haven't actually had the opportunity to confirm.  

        • Quote From OldManSanns
          Quote From Carmik

          I wonder then if that is the only way to achieve a tie. Because every other scenario has a predetermined order. And if that is the only way to achieve a tie in this game, I gotta say that they made some pretty robust systems. It aggravated me in the moment, but it makes sense once you put it into words

          Maybe if I have 1 HP and attack you with a big overwhelm, and you have a chump blocker and either Phantom Prankster and/or the chump blocker is Legion Grenadier: I could see the game logic applying the special effects to damage my nexus should be applied simultaneously as the carry-over damage to your nexus from my overwhelm and ruling that game a tie.  I've thought about this a lot actually, but I haven't actually had the opportunity to confirm.  

          My understanding is that Overwhelm damage is simultaneous with ally damage, while ally effects (if they have a specific trigger) resolve immediately after the strike but before the next strike in combat. I haven't done any testing, though.

        • i can confirm killed my OP and the prankster killed me afterwards but i won,  dont remenber the HP if was one  or two  of my OP  but i was 1, but was pretty low hope it helps.

  • Spells resolve first and only after minions inflict damage.

    You technicaly lost before your opponent so the game has considered the match closed at the time your Nexus was destroyed, regardless of anything that happened after that event.

    • Quote From Lightspoon

      Spells resolve first and only after minions inflict damage.

      This is how I always figured it, too. It seems Riot wanted to eliminate the possibility of 'simultaneous' damage as much as possible. Combat strikes ensue in order from left to right, and spells are resolved before units strike in combat. Whatever deals lethal damage first will instantly decide the winner of the match.

  • To be clear - Burst spells happen instantly, Fast spells (when cast during combat phase) happen before combat resolution. It's exactly the same as when you Mystic Shot an opponent's minion during combat - the Mystic Shot happens before the fight happens, so anything that minion was blocking (or being blocked by) will not be hit by it and will not take damage.

    The spells resolved, you took enough damage to lose. Then combat resolution happened.

    Honestly a lot of these difficulties would be avoided if Rito had decided to just end a game as soon as someone loses rather than letting animations play out. Personally I prefer it this way since it allows for entertaining end-of-game happenings, but certainly it would lead to fewer people getting confused.

  • There seem to be no ties in this game, the first one to strike the lethal wins, and since they casted the speels to lethal range before you attacked you lost, I assume it happens even if your strikes would life steal you above the treshold for losing..

    onceFiora hits 4 procs or the nexus is down to 0 it's game over it doesn't matter what happens after that.

    there's a similar thread with a Fiora case btw.

    I prefer it that way.. cause a tie in hs for example.. means both players lost.. at least in this way someone wins..

    maybe the only way to actually tie a game is to deal damage to both nexuses at the same time, there's currently only one card that does it in the caskets.. SO maybe it's possible.. but it's a fringe case atm cause nobody is playing casket seller atm

    • Quote From DoubleSummon

      maybe the only way to actually tie a game is to deal damage to both nexuses at the same time, there's currently only one card that does it in the caskets.. SO maybe it's possible.. but it's a fringe case atm cause nobody is playing casket seller atm

      Aside from a single card that deals damage to both nexi, there are combinations of cards that could create the same scenario. If both players have a Phantom Prankster and a 1- or 2-health unit, both nexi are at 1 HP, one one players plays Avalanche, the game should result in a tie to my understanding. Unless AoE spells kill units in sequential order, like how combat strikes resolve sequentially from left to right.

      With regard to sinti's comment, I'll go ahead and say I prefer it this way (spells resolving before combat attacks start). It's logically consistent with the game's rules, and I regard the opportunity to kill the opponent in a last-ditch-effort response to their big final attack as a cool possibility. Of course, if aggro decks with direct-damage spells become dominant, I might change my mind on that.

  • I mean the fact that you die first from a resolved spell before your opponent dies from your board makes sense mechanically, but thinking about it, it is a shitty mechanic in its core.

    I guess this is more about the back and forth action trading, but yet another example of a loss you can sustian from a commanding lead on the board. I dont know if i like this.

    Staff
    • Quote From sinti

      I mean the fact that you die first from a resolved spell before your opponent dies from your board makes sense mechanically, but thinking about it, it is a shitty mechanic in its core.

      I guess this is more about the back and forth action trading, but yet another example of a loss you can sustian from a commanding lead on the board. I dont know if i like this.

      Well, There is also Absorb Soul as a fast spell for example. You can always heal yourself before/after those fast spells :)

      I mean mechanic isn't shitty at the first place in my opinion. There are just so less cards to counter those plays right now. These are personal preferances in the end. :)

    • Quote From sinti

      I mean the fact that you die first from a resolved spell before your opponent dies from your board makes sense mechanically, but thinking about it, it is a shitty mechanic in its core.

      I guess this is more about the back and forth action trading, but yet another example of a loss you can sustian from a commanding lead on the board. I dont know if i like this.

      A commanding lead on the board has nothing to do with it -- that will never be an absolute guarantee of victory. All that matters is who drops to zero first.

      (Otherwise, they may as well delete Ezreal from the game.)