Legends of Runeterra
Landmarks, the impossible equation ?
Hey.
I'd like to start a topic on landmarks. I love landmarks (as a mechanic). I hate (most of currently existing) landmarks. Historically, I've been playing an equivalent on Shadowverse ((countdown) amulets) a lot.
One of my concern about LoR landmarks is that it shares the same issues than shadowverse ones (board management can become very tedious, the high risk of drawing the deck "upside down" (meaning here drawing very few early game landmarks and a lot of landmark based spells/allies with not enough targets), the high dependency between amulets and amulets related spells, the sluggishness, the tendency to get stomped by faster decks). But that's not really the biggest issue, that's the price to pay such a type of deck centered about future payback.
The main issues, I think, is that the average power level of landmarks in this game is bad. Some of them are abysmal by my now average experience in LoR and high in Shadowverse. And while I'm far from good at LoR for now, current meta snapshot actually demonstrates how little landmarks, including the ones incompatibles with Taliyah, are played.
Of course, some of them are good, very good even, and you do see them in meta decks. Namely, Preservarium, Emperor's dais, Blighted Ravine, Frozen Thrall, Sun Disc. There is a couple others which I deem playable even if non meta : Ancient preparations, Hibernating Rockbear, Star Spring.
About others, eh... what I think their power level is, feel free to share your own view or enlight me :
Ripper's bay - Bad/Meh. Inexpensive but take a board slot, something you do not want in an agressive deck.
Rockfall Path - Abysmal. It's sluggish, it's easy to play around, it doesn't help against aggro decks. It requires Countdown 1 to be remotely playable.
Startipped Peak - Bad. The fact it's random and doesn't give you a card immediately make it a LARGELY worse Preservarium, which you'll always play over this. Requires to provide first card immediately or cost 1 less.
Hexcore Foundry - Abysmal. 2021 and CCG designers still think anyone would play a card which will make opponent draw (especially aggro decks). Genius. Even if a mill pop this is too expensive. Requires to cost 2 less.
Inner Sanctum - Abysmal. Even Lebonk Sivir doesn't want that shit. If you pay it for its initial cost you deserve to lose. And Frozen thrall allies already had the only keyword you need. Requires to provide at least twice as much cards.
Monastery of Hirana - Abysmally abysmal. Providing bounces you can't use in combat nor as an answer to a spell (which are 99% of bounce usage in this game. Wow.
Spiral Stairs - Abysmally abysmal. Is EXPENSIVE and SLUGGISH as fuck for what it provides. The spell is slow and fleeting, making it very very ackward to use and prone to every single counterplay ever (counterspells, removals, ...). There is much better ways to use overhelm, and naturally Frozen Thrall decks won't need or play this garbage card. Requires to cost 2 less or cost 1 less and countdown 2.
The Grand Plaza - Average. It's a bit expensive but the effect is kinda good. There might be some stuff to do with that card.
The Scargrounds - Below average. In an appropriate deck it could be interesting, but it's a bit expensive for what it provides. Should cost 1 less.
The Slaughter docks - Average. Toss/Sea monsters decks doesn't seems to be favored but I suspect should a deck about it becomes okay this card will probably be added. Surely sometimes it will summon a Sea Scarab but most of the time it will pay for itself later, and it helps getting deep.
The twisted treeline - Bad. The follower isn't massive and the condition isn't exactly easy to trigger. And worse, it requires the fearsome followers to attack meaning you'll not be able to attack with Vilemaw on the same turn, making it virtually idle for this turn and next one. Requires for Vilemaw to be summoned and attacking immediately.
Salt spire - Abysmal. Way too expensive and slow for what it provides. Requires to cost 1 less and countdown 1.
The Veiled Temple - Decent/Average. I rate it this way assuming it can trigger on the turn you plays it, making it cost virtually 2 on a spell heavy deck. The +1/0 is nice to have, but the probably important effect is the discount itself, actually raising you capability to turn the table by being a disguised ramp, and more importantly, being disguised as having up to 15 mana a turn in an appropriate deck. I suspect the future may give this card a potential.
Eye of the Ra-Horak - Average/Bad. It's very expensive but it being countdown 1, it may help you to slow down the opponent. Per se it's correct. The main card issue however is its design. First issue is the Daybreak restriction, making it much weaker to seek with Imagined possibilities or Stoneweaving. Second issue is the fact the copy is countdown 2 and not 3. Meaning the copy will trigger on opponent defensive turn (because let's be honest most of the time you'll play this amulet on your offensive turn), which limited usage but a massive counterpush. So only a Malphite deck really want that. Should cost 1 less.
Noxkraya Arena - Bad. In an appropriate deck it MIGHT have some use but it's expensive as fuck.
Reavers's Row - Bad ? I'm not totally sure, maybe a 1 cost follower deck could be fun ? Expensive as fuck for what it provides, but some meme potential.
Sandswept Tomb - Bad. It's Emperor's dais in largely worse. Very expensive. Maybe in a reputation deck, but beside that it's probably too weak for anything.
Targon's Peak - Meme. With some intellectual honesty and having played an equivalent in Shadowverse I should rate it abysmal. But I'm gonna play it regardless for the glory of the meme so I won't.
The University of Piltover - Abysmally abysmal. The design is stupid as fuck and an insult to the glory of the meme. First design flaw is that is it IMCOMPATIBLE with the discard queen, Jinx. In fact, at the beginning of the turn this will empty your hand (and therefore make Jinx gain level), but you won't get Jinx draw nether a rocket, making the combo meh as fuck. The only good part of this card is that it seems the cards always cost less or equal than your starting turn mana. Wish I didn't spend 3 of my jokers on this garbage.
Vaults of Helia - Bad. There is probably a specific deck design to do to force summoned allies, making it some kind of tutor (and use ally generating spells for more fodder). But it's expensive as fuck for what it does and it's risky (empty board at the end of any turn = you probably can ff).
The howling abyss - Average/Bad. Very expensive, so to be played exclusively on your offensive turn. Also it's random, meaning you'll sometimes get champions which does virtually nothing useful for you. The thing which makes it close to average is the fact it's Freljord, so ramp can help making this thing happens. You'll just hope not to get Teemo out of this, as well as several mechanic specific champions such as Yasuo. Wish it costed 1 less.
Your view on this?
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Hey.
I'd like to start a topic on landmarks. I love landmarks (as a mechanic). I hate (most of currently existing) landmarks. Historically, I've been playing an equivalent on Shadowverse ((countdown) amulets) a lot.
One of my concern about LoR landmarks is that it shares the same issues than shadowverse ones (board management can become very tedious, the high risk of drawing the deck "upside down" (meaning here drawing very few early game landmarks and a lot of landmark based spells/allies with not enough targets), the high dependency between amulets and amulets related spells, the sluggishness, the tendency to get stomped by faster decks). But that's not really the biggest issue, that's the price to pay such a type of deck centered about future payback.
The main issues, I think, is that the average power level of landmarks in this game is bad. Some of them are abysmal by my now average experience in LoR and high in Shadowverse. And while I'm far from good at LoR for now, current meta snapshot actually demonstrates how little landmarks, including the ones incompatibles with Taliyah, are played.
Of course, some of them are good, very good even, and you do see them in meta decks. Namely, Preservarium, Emperor's dais, Blighted Ravine, Frozen Thrall, Sun Disc. There is a couple others which I deem playable even if non meta : Ancient preparations, Hibernating Rockbear, Star Spring.
About others, eh... what I think their power level is, feel free to share your own view or enlight me :
Ripper's bay - Bad/Meh. Inexpensive but take a board slot, something you do not want in an agressive deck.
Rockfall Path - Abysmal. It's sluggish, it's easy to play around, it doesn't help against aggro decks. It requires Countdown 1 to be remotely playable.
Startipped Peak - Bad. The fact it's random and doesn't give you a card immediately make it a LARGELY worse Preservarium, which you'll always play over this. Requires to provide first card immediately or cost 1 less.
Hexcore Foundry - Abysmal. 2021 and CCG designers still think anyone would play a card which will make opponent draw (especially aggro decks). Genius. Even if a mill pop this is too expensive. Requires to cost 2 less.
Inner Sanctum - Abysmal. Even Lebonk Sivir doesn't want that shit. If you pay it for its initial cost you deserve to lose. And Frozen thrall allies already had the only keyword you need. Requires to provide at least twice as much cards.
Monastery of Hirana - Abysmally abysmal. Providing bounces you can't use in combat nor as an answer to a spell (which are 99% of bounce usage in this game. Wow.
Spiral Stairs - Abysmally abysmal. Is EXPENSIVE and SLUGGISH as fuck for what it provides. The spell is slow and fleeting, making it very very ackward to use and prone to every single counterplay ever (counterspells, removals, ...). There is much better ways to use overhelm, and naturally Frozen Thrall decks won't need or play this garbage card. Requires to cost 2 less or cost 1 less and countdown 2.
The Grand Plaza - Average. It's a bit expensive but the effect is kinda good. There might be some stuff to do with that card.
The Scargrounds - Below average. In an appropriate deck it could be interesting, but it's a bit expensive for what it provides. Should cost 1 less.
The Slaughter docks - Average. Toss/Sea monsters decks doesn't seems to be favored but I suspect should a deck about it becomes okay this card will probably be added. Surely sometimes it will summon a Sea Scarab but most of the time it will pay for itself later, and it helps getting deep.
The twisted treeline - Bad. The follower isn't massive and the condition isn't exactly easy to trigger. And worse, it requires the fearsome followers to attack meaning you'll not be able to attack with Vilemaw on the same turn, making it virtually idle for this turn and next one. Requires for Vilemaw to be summoned and attacking immediately.
Salt spire - Abysmal. Way too expensive and slow for what it provides. Requires to cost 1 less and countdown 1.
The Veiled Temple - Decent/Average. I rate it this way assuming it can trigger on the turn you plays it, making it cost virtually 2 on a spell heavy deck. The +1/0 is nice to have, but the probably important effect is the discount itself, actually raising you capability to turn the table by being a disguised ramp, and more importantly, being disguised as having up to 15 mana a turn in an appropriate deck. I suspect the future may give this card a potential.
Eye of the Ra-Horak - Average/Bad. It's very expensive but it being countdown 1, it may help you to slow down the opponent. Per se it's correct. The main card issue however is its design. First issue is the Daybreak restriction, making it much weaker to seek with Imagined possibilities or Stoneweaving. Second issue is the fact the copy is countdown 2 and not 3. Meaning the copy will trigger on opponent defensive turn (because let's be honest most of the time you'll play this amulet on your offensive turn), which limited usage but a massive counterpush. So only a Malphite deck really want that. Should cost 1 less.
Noxkraya Arena - Bad. In an appropriate deck it MIGHT have some use but it's expensive as fuck.
Reavers's Row - Bad ? I'm not totally sure, maybe a 1 cost follower deck could be fun ? Expensive as fuck for what it provides, but some meme potential.
Sandswept Tomb - Bad. It's Emperor's dais in largely worse. Very expensive. Maybe in a reputation deck, but beside that it's probably too weak for anything.
Targon's Peak - Meme. With some intellectual honesty and having played an equivalent in Shadowverse I should rate it abysmal. But I'm gonna play it regardless for the glory of the meme so I won't.
The University of Piltover - Abysmally abysmal. The design is stupid as fuck and an insult to the glory of the meme. First design flaw is that is it IMCOMPATIBLE with the discard queen, Jinx. In fact, at the beginning of the turn this will empty your hand (and therefore make Jinx gain level), but you won't get Jinx draw nether a rocket, making the combo meh as fuck. The only good part of this card is that it seems the cards always cost less or equal than your starting turn mana. Wish I didn't spend 3 of my jokers on this garbage.
Vaults of Helia - Bad. There is probably a specific deck design to do to force summoned allies, making it some kind of tutor (and use ally generating spells for more fodder). But it's expensive as fuck for what it does and it's risky (empty board at the end of any turn = you probably can ff).
The howling abyss - Average/Bad. Very expensive, so to be played exclusively on your offensive turn. Also it's random, meaning you'll sometimes get champions which does virtually nothing useful for you. The thing which makes it close to average is the fact it's Freljord, so ramp can help making this thing happens. You'll just hope not to get Teemo out of this, as well as several mechanic specific champions such as Yasuo. Wish it costed 1 less.
Your view on this?
The main problem with landmarks is the lack of good landmark removal cards. Right now the only good one is Scorched Earth. Any time we had strong landmarks they ended up being oppressive and had to be nerfed that was the case with The Grand Plaza and The Veiled Temple.
Also your general assessment on landmark power level is good, with exception of Hexcore Foundry that one is pretty good and synergies really well with Teemo deck since you pump your opponent deck full of Puffcaps and force him to draw them with Hexcore.
Overall the mechanic is still ( relatively ) new and the dev are still experimenting with it to see what works and what doesn't, I think they eventually get it right.
I've been trying out a deck using Reaver's Row for a while now. It includes The Time Has Come as well. I feel like the issue with Reaver's Row is the fact that it's like a 5 mana do nothing for an aggro deck. If only it would summon a 1 cost when summoned it'd be considerably better.
People say The University of Piltover is bad but honestly I've kinda just slot it in Discard Aggro as a 1-of and it does a fine job. As long as the meta is slow that is. When you're fighting a deck with an insane amount of heals or board clear, University just gives more fuel than Jinx could. It can't be easily dealt with through normal means and provides 3 extra cards in a turn, albeit making your plays awkward. Otherwise, don't run it. You'd just want something to kill the Nexus faster rather than a 5 mana do nothing.
Also like minuano said, Hexcore Foundry is REALLY good in EZ Freezy. It automatically wins the games for you if they're a slow deck. It enables that specific deck pretty well.
I think the closest to being insanely good has to be The Veiled Temple, The Scargrounds and The Grand Plaza. They are not only good enough as slot-ins for a deck but also strong enough to create an archetype around it. I think that just having the right support for those landmarks are enough to make them viable in the meta.
As for the rest... I think the reason they are horrid is because they meant to be support cards for certain archetypes. The thing is, the finishers for those archetypes tend to be slow and doesn't actually finish the game. Landmarks are low tempo cards and are meant to be high value (some are clearly not). This means that the finisher needs to gain advantage with Landmarks through value. Though most of the time, they would try to rather try to go for the Nexus (when they're most likely at full health). Countdown decks either need a follower or a champion that immediately advance 1 to landmarks you summon, or make a finisher that relies not on Nexus beatdown but something else (like Star Spring).
Take my words with a grain of salt. I'm unranked and only play casuals lmao.
I agree, this seems to be a pretty fair assessment of the landmarks. I use Inner Sanctum in an Aksha/Renekton deck and it is quite useful there, as you can drop it turn three and slam two buffs on Renekton turn four. Although I haven’t used it outside of this deck so I can’t testify to its use elsewhere.
After some test I decided to invest on the meta current list (Turbo thrall) and I understand how oppressive can they be. That list seems utterly decent, with some quite stupid peak power (summoning 2 8/8 overhelm t5 with your 4/4 is quite something to behold).
It's a shame that the power level of the landmarks is so variable, with Frozen Thrall being both a beast and the best target for several landmark spells and effects, while a lot of them are either, or both, low power and/or barely compatible with existing landmark spells and effects (not countdown, combo inefficiency, countdown too short to combo).
I'll probably next invest in a Star Spring deck since the game gave me already 2 Soraka.
I've been staying away from landmark focused decks because it's unreliable and slow. If at least landmarks used spell mana.....
I've been wondering that as well : would make landmark summonable with spell mana be a way to make the more expensive ones playable. And I believe... that yea probably. I've noticed that spell mana management is tedious on a landmark heavy deck, only turbo thrall seems to be okay with that (due to the fact that the few present are either very cheap or generated through an ally/Lissandra).
But if you do that, you probably want to raise Targon peak and Howling abyss cost to 7 as being able to play them as early as T3 would be a bit... too stronk/risky.
A review of the new ones with Bandlewood :
Landmarks
The Bandle Tree : Average. While I'm not sold on it being a main wincon, it seems like a decent value generation against slower matchup. But I'll not rate it above average. If it's meta, it's because Poppy is bonkers.
Hexplosive Minefield : Stronk. Inexpensive stun which support destroy decks. It's only minor downside is that destroy landmark sources are mostly slow/ally based, making it a bit less reactive than a fast spell unless you have Unleashed energy. But for the double effect honestly who cares at this price.
Catalogue of Regrets : Below average. It kinda falls in those amulets which are a tad to slow to be a thing, but should meta become any slower (lol), it MIGHT be a good pick in certain decks.
Risen Altar : Below average. The cost is hella big so if you can play it on your defensive turn you are probably already winning the game. Which means you'll mostly play it on your offensive turn to be used either in your defensive turn with the help of Unleashed energy, or in the next offensive turn. Either way it's sluggish and it only looks scary until you acknowledge Sivir exists.
Obelisk of power : Good. A bit whacky to use but it's inexpensive for what it provides. Especially compaired to its absolute garbage counterpart, Spiral Stairs
Champions cards
Ziggs : Stronk/Good. Massive pressure cooker in a premium body, and fairly easy to evolve. Also Shurima so Sun Disc friendly. Probably a staple in any midrange Landmark deck.
Xerath : Average. I don't think there is enough support atm to make him works. The main problem after some test is that you either tune a deck to be Xerath oriented (so a lot of countdown reduction) and it will be sluggish, either you tune a deck for something a tad faster and board oriented and he'll mostly be a strictly worse Ziggs. Still, I smell some huge potential, so rate it average.
Landmarks related cards
Bomber twins : Stronk/Good. The landmark is totally random but with the support of several destroy card, even a bad/unrelated landmark can become destroy fodder. And the body is premium, making it "at worst" a 3/2 for 2. And it's Shurima so Sun disc friendly. What more to ask?
The Arsenal : Stronk. It's late in the game but what a monster. A bit on the random part but getting the much needed spellshield should happens fairly often.
Yordle Contraption : Abysmal. Hella expensive for any of its effect.
Inventive chemist - Scrappy bomb : Good/Average. An agressive statline and a free landmark is good in my books. Only downside is its large weakness to any aggro/token deck.
Safety Inspector - Inspection Passed : Average/Bad. I do see the point in landing a big ass follower followed by a free removal, but I'm still not sold in playing this with, or over, rite of the arcane
Rite of the Arcane : Good/Average. It's obviously made for a landmark deck, but in those deck it's almost a deal 4 for 3, which is okay.
Waste Walker : Good. If it sees a single landmark being destroyed it's dangerous for the opponent. Any landmark beyond that will make them sweat.
Sandseer: Below average. I UNDERSTAND what it tries to accomplish but Landmark decks are so crowded with staples that such a clumsy and random draw engine sounds... hella unappealing. Stick to Preservarium.
Herald of the magus : Good/Average. A tad slow but quite the creepy effect. It fits reasonably well most Shuriman champions.
Unleashed energy : Average. It's noticeably more expensive than its 1 mana counterpart but support destroy landmark, and is currently the only uncounterable destroy effect. It's downside is that it best support Xerath, but the buff isn't really Xerath friendly.
Ruinous acolyte : Average/Bad. On paper it sounds scary. On test, it seems to barely if ever get dangerous enough to be relevant. Still it's a pretty cheap destroy source.
Endless devout - Sarcophagus - Restored Devout : Uber. It's cheap enough that silencing it doesn't sound so good, and its body is good enough that it will deal with most early game. The amulet is very stronk and heavily support possibly every single Landmark deck. And it curves with Desert Naturalist. Probably a mandatory card in any landmark deck.
Servitude of desolation : Bad. It's quite the effect, but it's hella expensive, so it will only fit very slow decks. And I fail to see in which situation you need this over its mono-targetted 2 mana counterpart. Maybe as a one off in a Xerath control deck, if it's ever a thing?
Construct of Desolation : Average. It's more support for Ruinous acolyte, or more Obelisk of power, so I can see it being played.
So all in all it seems the expansion add a LOT of opportunities, which I can only rejoice.
Given your oppinion on Sands of Time you really can't have played a lot since this expansion.
To have a Frozen Thrall enabler (thralls are the nr1 deck right in case you didn't know) attached to a very decent stall spell (there is a reason why Rite of Dominance was costed at 4 mana + a managem afterall) is insane in thralls but in general good if your deck has hight countdown landmarks.
About the other opinions:
Ravenbloom Conservatory is about the best card noxus control ever got. To buff up low damage removal spells and small units turns them into very potent threats (as thorbran demonstrated in MtG more than well). It is however not a landmark in the traditional sense but rather a minion with extra requirement.
God-Willow Seedling:
As much as Kennen decks had to be tuned down, I think this very universal and Interesting shouldn't have nerfed and given that kennen is pretty much nonexistant right now I would like riot to undo the nerf that turned the card into a landmark that's too unreliable and too slow
Long time no see hope you've been doing well.
God-Willow Seedling is not meant to be used in a landmark deck, it's a combo piece for recall decks it was so good the card got nerfed.
Mystic Vortex is not that good and "competitive" Bard decks don't run it. The card is a big value engine but it's slow and Bard decks care more about tempo than they do about value.
Chamber of Renewal is very clunky, you can't afford a mana 3 do nothing in this meta and it only works with champions further restricting it use, also Shurima has better cards to protect their champions.
Sands of Time is card that many of us thought would be garbage but ended up being very powerful and one the reason why Turbo Thralls is now a tier 1 deck being able to stall and advance your landmarks countdown is everything the deck want
On a somewhat related note, we are getting buffs to landmark removals (probably because of Thralls). I do feel like they do need to buff some of the really bad landmarks that they have not touched like Noxkraya Arena, Reaver's Row, etc. I feel like there's a fair bit of untapped potential hidden within these landmarks yet I don't think they'll ever see the light of day.
Take my words with a grain of salt. I'm unranked and only play casuals lmao.