Noxus: Battering Ram is way too overpowered.

As well as Vanguard Firstblade; that shouldn't have permanent 'Attack' gains, though not all of these types are as obscene as Battering Ram or Firstblade, and at least Firstblade is counterable as it starts as a 2/2.

6 Mana for a 0/12 with Overwhelm that gets a permanent +4 every time it attacks... that's absurd, that's so cheap for such a powerful card. Only one card comes close to this and that's Scarmother Vrynna, who's a 6 Mana, 3/8 that gains +3 when she survives damage.

Battering Ram needs to have it's +4 when Attacking made in to 'This Round' or have it's health reduced to 6.

At the moment the only counters to Battering Ram are Noxian Guillotine (if damaged), Vengeance or Ruination. Two of which are... also Noxus based.

Quote From SirInugami

At the moment the only counters to Battering Ram are Noxian Guillotine (if damaged), Vengeance or Ruination. Two of which are... also Noxus based.

I agree that a growing 4/12 with no handicaps is probably overstated for 6 mana (its more than double Darius' health for the same mana cost!), but I'll disagree with this "only counters" bit.  Demacia has Detain and Purify.  Freljord has She Who Wanders and frostbite into either Winter's BreadthBADCARDNAME or Rimfang WolfBADCARDNAME.  Ionia has stuns, recalls, and Death Mark.  Shadow Isles has Vengeance, RuinationBADCARDNAME, and Rhasa the Sunderer (not sure which of those you thought were Noxus).  Noxus has damage + Noxian Guillotine that you mentioned plus Culling Strike if you get it off the same turn and Reckoning if you get it before the next attack.  P/Z is really the only region that doesn't have a viable answer unless you count Thermogenic Beam (I don't); they have small burst damage like Get ExcitedBADCARDNAME and Mystic Shot but its not great against a fat body.

I will grant that Shadow Isle's control tools feel was more powerful than any of the other regions right now, but they are trying to make each region feel like it has unique solutions to solve problems and I really respect that.

I was going to write a rebuttal, but you covered pretty much everything I was going to say bar one point (kudos).

The one additional point: It's a 6-drop. LoR has far more impactful minions at the 5+ cost than other card games relative to the power of lower cost minions - just look at Avarosan Hearthguard as an example. It's very powerful at doing its one particular thing, but so are a bunch of other cards. Just because the one thing it is doing happened to burn you recently is no reason to think it overpowered.

Quote From OldManSanns

Quote From SirInugami

At the moment the only counters to Battering Ram are Noxian Guillotine (if damaged), Vengeance or Ruination. Two of which are... also Noxus based.

I agree that a growing 4/12 with no handicaps is probably overstated for 6 mana (its more than double Darius' health for the same mana cost!), but I'll disagree with this "only counters" bit.  Demacia has Detain and Purify.  Freljord has She Who Wanders and frostbite into either Winter's Breadth or Rimfang Wolf.  Ionia has stuns, recalls, and Death Mark.  Shadow Isles has Vengeance, Ruination, and Rhasa the Sunderer (not sure which of those you thought were Noxus).  Noxus has damage + Noxian Guillotine that you mentioned plus Culling Strike if you get it off the same turn and Reckoning if you get it before the next attack.  P/Z is really the only region that doesn't have a viable answer unless you count Thermogenic Beam (I don't); they have small burst damage like Get Excited and Mystic Shot but its not great against a fat body.

I will grant that Shadow Isle's control tools feel was more powerful than any of the other regions right now, but they are trying to make each region feel like it has unique solutions to solve problems and I really respect that.

You're correct, there are a few more counters that I was originally acknowledging, a few are also very niche though.

Also, it doesn't stop at 4/12. Battering Ram will continue to get +4/+0 *every* time it attacks. It quickly goes to 8/12, 12/12, 16/12 etc. and it has Overwhelm... lol

Quote From Bystekhilcar

I was going to write a rebuttal, but you covered pretty much everything I was going to say bar one point (kudos).

The one additional point: It's a 6-drop. LoR has far more impactful minions at the 5+ cost than other card games relative to the power of lower cost minions - just look at Avarosan Hearthguard as an example. It's very powerful at doing its one particular thing, but so are a bunch of other cards. Just because the one thing it is doing happened to burn you recently is no reason to think it overpowered.

I've been burned more than once recently by two variations of a deck centered around 3 Battering Rams. While, no, they don't have deck-wide impact - they do create immense pressure around them considering how much Health they have and that their +4/+0 gain every time they attack is ludicrous, especially having Overwhelm.

I agree -- they should either reduce the health or remove Overwhelm. Or not snowball.

I strongly disagree that other 6-mana followers are as impactful. Champions, perhaps, but not followers.

Apart from those that revive themselves, I can't think of any follower that's so difficult to remove. It is effectively immune to combat the first round, and it is guaranteed to take several units down while dealing massive nexus damage at the same time -- all with no precondition to be met.

Listing a bunch of hard removals is not particularly helpful -- by definition, those work on literally everything. A 6-mana follower that snowballs very quickly should not require hard removal.

One way to fix it would be to keep its stats at 0/12, but add: "Play: Capture an ally to grant me that ally's power." Because the ally is piloting it, see? (And remove the Attack effect, because logically, why would a real battering ram's attacks get stronger over time?)

Quote From FortyDust

I agree -- they should either reduce the health or remove Overwhelm. Or not snowball.

I strongly disagree that other 6-mana followers are as impactful. Champions, perhaps, but not followers.

Apart from those that revive themselves, I can't think of any follower that's so difficult to remove. It is effectively immune to combat the first round, and it is guaranteed to take several units down while dealing massive nexus damage at the same time -- all with no precondition to be met.

Listing a bunch of hard removals is not particularly helpful -- by definition, those work on literally everything. A 6-mana follower that snowballs very quickly should not require hard removal.

One way to fix it would be to keep its stats at 0/12, but add: "Play: Capture an ally to grant me that ally's power." Because the ally is piloting it, see? (And remove the Attack effect, because logically, why would a real battering ram's attacks get stronger over time?)

Oh I like that solution, definitely. That would require you to have a strong ally beforehand as a condition as well.

Quote From FortyDust

I agree -- they should either reduce the health or remove Overwhelm. Or not snowball.

I strongly disagree that other 6-mana followers are as impactful. Champions, perhaps, but not followers.

Apart from those that revive themselves, I can't think of any follower that's so difficult to remove. It is effectively immune to combat the first round, and it is guaranteed to take several units down while dealing massive nexus damage at the same time -- all with no precondition to be met.

Listing a bunch of hard removals is not particularly helpful -- by definition, those work on literally everything. A 6-mana follower that snowballs very quickly should not require hard removal.

One way to fix it would be to keep its stats at 0/12, but add: "Play: Capture an ally to grant me that ally's power." Because the ally is piloting it, see? (And remove the Attack effect, because logically, why would a real battering ram's attacks get stronger over time?)

I see where they were going with the design though, it gets stronger the more you ram at the doors so it keeps racking damage.

You know I didn't see this card being played yet, probably cause all the elusive craze the meta is too fast for this guy.

I will be sure to pick it up in expeditions if I see it being offered though.

Holy cow - I went up against Battering Ram for the first time yesterday. I thought the +4 attack effect was temporary, and even then, I felt the card was perhaps a bit too strong. Luckily, I was able to silence it after the 1st turn, so I didn't notice that it was actually a stacking buff. That just feels grossly overpowered to me. As the OP argued, I think Vanguard Firstblade is in an OK spot because it's relatively expensive and you have a realistic chance to kill it in combat or via a cheap removal card early on.

I'd say make Battering Ram's effect only last until the end of the round, and possibly lower its health to 11 or 10 if it needs more fine-tuning.