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Legends of Runeterra | Posted by | 6 years ago
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March 17 patch expectations

The patch a week from tomorrow is supposed to be a hard-hitting balance update. What are your hopes and dreams for it? What will be nerfed? What will be buffed? What will be totally redesigned?

There is already a thread about HecarimBADCARDNAME, the low-hanging fruit of this topic, so let's take that one as given and not bother discussing it here.

Besides he-who-must-not-be-named, what else do you expect to see changed?

I'll start! Even though I'm seeing more Kalista lately, she still doesn't seem good ... like, at all. I wonder if she might see a buff.

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  • The patch a week from tomorrow is supposed to be a hard-hitting balance update. What are your hopes and dreams for it? What will be nerfed? What will be buffed? What will be totally redesigned?

    There is already a thread about HecarimBADCARDNAME, the low-hanging fruit of this topic, so let's take that one as given and not bother discussing it here.

    Besides he-who-must-not-be-named, what else do you expect to see changed?

    I'll start! Even though I'm seeing more Kalista lately, she still doesn't seem good ... like, at all. I wonder if she might see a buff.

  • Mark of the Isles needs to give +3|+1 instead and Glimpse Beyond should cost 3

    • Quote From CursedParrot

      Mark of the Isles needs to give +3|+1 instead and Glimpse Beyond should cost 3

      I'm curious: What exactly would this change besides the Death Mark interaction?

      Quote From OldManSanns

      Nerfs:

      Buffs:

      I agree with everything on your list except for the Minotaur change. At least, I'd reduce his attack to 5 along with the cost decrease.

      Quote From Leglock

      Karma feels really weird, is one of the few cards that brings rng to the game (aside draw), i don't like her basic skill.

      Relentless Pursuit is either slow or 5 mana. It was disscused before, but it brings unnecesary power to the board, in mtg similar effects are waaaaay more expensive than 3 mana. Also, The text is not accurate, since you can play at the start of your turn and have a second combat phase.

      Honestly, I like her level-1 ability more than her level-2. I generally concur that RNG effects should be kept to a minimum in Runeterra, but I think it works fine with Karma. Perhaps limit the randomness to some specific subset of spells she can create?

      As for Relentless Pursuit, I'm still not convinced it's quite as strong as most people claim, but I wouldn't mind seeing it changed to slow speed.

      Quote From Almaniarra

      - After "For this round" buffs, All units will return back to their damaged healths instead of restoring their health.
      - Spells of champions should not put into decks that doesn't have those champions and can't be created with random effects like Back Alley Barkeep or Karma. Example: You can't put Prismatic Barrier to a deck that doesn't have any Lux.

      If one-round buff spells worked they way you're proposing, what would be the point of buffing a unit's health? I can only think of very niche scenarios (like killing the 4th enemy with a buffed Fiora) where temporary health buffs would be of any significance. I think the mechanic is working just fine as is.

      I think the idea of restricting champion signature spells to decks that actually run the champion is very interesting. I'd have to wrap my head around some of the more concrete implications, first, though.

      • Quote From BlueSpark

         

        Quote From Almaniarra

        - After "For this round" buffs, All units will return back to their damaged healths instead of restoring their health.
        - Spells of champions should not put into decks that doesn't have those champions and can't be created with random effects like Back Alley Barkeep or Karma. Example: You can't put Prismatic Barrier to a deck that doesn't have any Lux.

        If one-round buff spells worked they way you're proposing, what would be the point of buffing a unit's health? I can only think of very niche scenarios (like killing the 4th enemy with a buffed Fiora) where temporary health buffs would be of any significance. I think the mechanic is working just fine as is.

        I think the idea of restricting champion signature spells to decks that actually run the champion is very interesting. I'd have to wrap my head around some of the more concrete implications, first, though.

        I will give an example to be more clear.

        There is a Radiant Guardian as 5/1 and Though. Your opponent uses Back to Back on her to block your 3/2 and makes her 8/4. She became  8/2 after battle phase ends;
        Right now, she became 5/2 after the turn ends. You can't kill her with Mystic Shot for example if you top-deck some. If the change I have called above is applied, it would became 5/1 after Back to Back's effect disappear so you would be able to kill her with your top-deck Mystic Shot.

        Buff shouldn't mean Heal in my opinion and there will be also a point to use one round buffs, in this example, The opponent would protect their Radiant Guardian if we wouldn't draw Mystic Shot for example. So with my change, You can still protect your units, but for one round as it should be. One round buffs should stay as one round, shouldn't be permanent effects like healing your unit.

  • Nerfs:

    Buffs:

    • Quote From OldManSanns

      Nerfs:

      Buffs:

      Death Mark is hard enough to use as is.

      Troop of Elnuks seems fair, the card needs a rework of sort.. but then it's too consistent..

      I don't think Ezrealand Karma are a problem, Hecarim is banned in this thread.

      Do you really want to buff shiraza? 5 hp is a lot.. you add might to her and she is OTKing people everywhere.

      Minotaur Reckoner DOES NOT NEED A BUFF.. the card is strong enough as is.

      Avarosan Trapper yep needs a buff, really bad card atm..

      Jae Medarda - you do NOT want this card buffed.. it's an elusive unit with card draw..

      Arena Bookie as an engine card I think he should cost 3, but make him a 2/2 or a 3/2.

      Kalista is ok at her mana cost, could use a rework rather than a buff, Vladimir and Ashe are really in the right spot, specially Ashe.

       

      • Quote From DoubleSummon
         

        Death Mark is hard enough to use as is.

        Agree to disagree.  If it was really that hard to use, I wouldn't be seeing so many Ionia/SI decks running 3x of it.  Contrast that fact against Blood for Blood or Pack Mentality which I don't think I've ever seen in constructed, and I don't feel bad at all about limiting the upswing on DM.

        Do you really want to buff shiraza? 5 hp is a lot.. you add might to her and she is OTKing people everywhere.

        Yes.  Again: she gets no play right now, and the big reason is because you're lucky if you can connect once with her.  3/5 for 4 mana is reasonable IMHO--it means she can survive a block from a Chump Whump or Bull Elnuk so you can at least try to get 2 attacks out of her.

        Jae Medarda - you do NOT want this card buffed.. it's an elusive unit with card draw..

        Sure I do.  :-)  Keep in mind: he's P&Z, not Ionia, and he's not going to integrate nicely to existing Kinkou decklists (only synergy is Twin Discipline, plus even at 7 he's a lot slower than they want).  He'll play more like old-school Miracle Rogue in classic HS: stall until you get him on the board, then pop off with a series of small spells/draws and one big swing.  That's new and different--I like new and different.

      • Quote From BlueSpark
        I agree with everything on your list except for the Minotaur change. At least, I'd reduce his attack to 5 along with the cost decrease.

        I could see that.  My main thought was: how could we help out Yasuo without just super-buffing him?  And honestly, now that I'm remembering Mogwai's fae spinner / katarina deck which ran minotaurs but no Yasuo, I'm not sure that's the right play.

        • Quote From OldManSanns
          Quote From BlueSpark
          I agree with everything on your list except for the Minotaur change. At least, I'd reduce his attack to 5 along with the cost decrease.
           

          I could see that.  My main thought was: how could we help out Yasuo without just super-buffing him?  And honestly, now that I'm remembering Mogwai's fae spinner / katarina deck which ran minotaurs but no Yasuo, I'm not sure that's the right play.

          Yeah, Minotaur is already basically auto-win with Yasuo.

          I think it's Yasuo himself that needs the rework. As Mogwai pointed out, his ability is somewhat redundant with its trigger -- you are already removing the target from combat, so the damage doesn't really add anything in the moment. Yes, it's an overall tempo gain for future rounds, but that's not usually what the deck needs at that point in time.

  • Delete Pony... (Joke)

    Karma feels really weird, is one of the few cards that brings rng to the game (aside draw), i don't like her basic skill.

    Relentless Pursuit is either slow or 5 mana. It was disscused before, but it brings unnecesary power to the board, in mtg similar effects are waaaaay more expensive than 3 mana. Also, The text is not accurate, since you can play at the start of your turn and have a second combat phase.

    Rework Elusive keyword or nerf every elusive unit from Ionia into the ground (i'm cool with the others, but the keyword should be reworked as "after the first time I attack, I lose elusive").

    Glimpse Beyond cost 3 mana instead of 2

    Warmother's Call 11 mana instead of 12

    Mark of the Isles give +3/0 And reduce the hp of the unit to 1

    I would like to see Ren Shadowblade played, but seems to powerful to cost less mana and to slow fot that price... So maybe 7 mana(?)

    Nerfing Shadow Isles and Ionian will buff the other regions (but I will keep an eye on Freljiord and P&Z)

     

  • Hoping to see some rule changes instead of card/stat buffs/nerfs;

    - Ephemerals should disappear/die after taking damage from any source
    - Elusive keyword should be for 1 turn or for 1 attack for followers (not champions) or All elusive followers should have a text like "After I deal damage, I lose elusive.)
    - Burst spells should be cast after Burst spells. (That's never gonna happen tbh but one can hope.)
    - After "For this round" buffs, All units will return back to their damaged healths instead of restoring their health.
    - Spells of champions should not put into decks that doesn't have those champions and can't be created with random effects like Back Alley Barkeep or Karma. Example: You can't put Prismatic Barrier to a deck that doesn't have any Lux. This also might fix Relentless Pursuit's brokenness a bit so it shouldn't need a nerf at first place.

    Card Changes

    - Hecarim should lose his Overwhelm keyword or should lose one token.
    - Relentless Pursuit should cost 4.
    - Death Mark should be a slow spell as how they did for Intimidating Roar before which  killed Yasuo decks.
    - Karma's enlightened effect should disappear if Karma dies before the spell triggered.
    - Katarina needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
    - Kalista needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
    - Fiora should have 2 attack instead of 3.
    - Draven needs his old stats 4/3 instead of 3/3.
    - Ashe should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
    - Absorb Soul should be either cost 0 or should drain 5. (Health Potion)
    - Precious Pet should be reverted, it should stun the next unit that the enemy summons instead of Fearsome, like in preview patches. That change has also harmed Yasuo archetype.
    - Cursed Keeper should summon a 3/3 instead of 4/4.
    - Feral Mystic should be 3 mana 3/3 instead of 2 mana 2/2.
    - Herald of Spring should have 3 health.
    - Shatter should be a fast spell.
    - Golden Crushbot should be a 3/4 instead of 2/5.
    - Kindly Tavernkeeper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
    - Laurent Chevalier should have 2 health instead of 1.
    - Mageseeker Inciter needs a keyword. Barrier/Tough/Fearsome/Elusive/Challenger/Lifesteal/Overwhelm, any of them or should rework as a Detain on a stick.
    - Statikk Shock should draw cards as how much target it is cast on. If it targets 2 enemy, it should draw 2; if targets are destroyed before it, it should draw 0.
    - Funsmith should have 4 Health instead of 3.
    - Midenstokke Henchmen should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
    - Yusari needs a rework.
    - Hextech Transmogulator should cost 4 or 5 instead of 6. I can understand it was created for Lux/Heimerdinger decks but it's an expensive effect for 6 because it can only target followers.
    - The Rekindler's effect should be a play effect instead of When I'm summoned.
    - Icy Yeti should be 6 mana instead of 7. I don't think it will be problematic with Winter's Breath. They should be combo pieces together imo.
    - Jae Medarda is ok if we think about The Empyrean. I think elusive keyword needs a rework/rulechange so making Jae Medarda 7/7 with the change that i called above would be fair.
    - Ren Shadowblade should be 5/5 instead of 6/4.
    - Spectral Matron should be 7 mana 5/5 instead of 8 mana 6/6. After some changes of 7 mana minions (Tianna Crownguard, Rhasa the Sunderer) 7-mana spot is so blank imo.
    - Brightsteel Formation should lose its play effect and it should be only for attack.
    - Shady Character should work like burst spells or should have 2 health instead of 1.
    - Blood for Blood either should cost 2 or needs a rework.
    - Avarosan Trapper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
    - Arena Bookie should have 2 health instead of 1.
    - I think Mark of the Isles will be ok if ephemerals will have a rule change but if they will not, it should be +2/+2 instead of +3/+3.
    - Greenglade Caretaker and Fae Bladetwirler should gain +1 Attack instead of +2.
    - Boomcrew Rookie should have 3 health instead of 4.
    - Legion Saboteur should have 1 attack instead of 2.

    These are what I can think of. I can see that some of those cards' changes make others unnecessary but I really can't know what Riot will change so I just wrote them like they will be single buff/nerf.

    Card changes should not be necessary but I really think that there needs to be some rule changes.

    • Quote From Almaniarra

      Hoping to see some rule changes instead of card/stat buffs/nerfs;

      - Ephemerals should disappear/die after taking damage from any source
      - Elusive keyword should be for 1 turn or for 1 attack for followers (not champions) or All elusive followers should have a text like "After I deal damage, I lose elusive.)
      - Burst spells should be cast after Burst spells. (That's never gonna happen tbh but one can hope.)
      - After "For this round" buffs, All units will return back to their damaged healths instead of restoring their health.
      - Spells of champions should not put into decks that doesn't have those champions and can't be created with random effects like Back Alley Barkeep or Karma. Example: You can't put Prismatic Barrier to a deck that doesn't have any Lux. This also might fix Relentless Pursuit's brokenness a bit so it shouldn't need a nerf at first place.

      Card Changes

      - Hecarim should lose his Overwhelm keyword or should lose one token.
      - Relentless Pursuit should cost 4.
      - Death Mark should be a slow spell as how they did for Intimidating Roar before which  killed Yasuo decks.
      - Karma's enlightened effect should disappear if Karma dies before the spell triggered.
      - Katarina needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
      - Kalista needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
      - Fiora should have 2 attack instead of 3.
      - Draven needs his old stats 4/3 instead of 3/3.
      - Ashe should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
      - Absorb Soul should be either cost 0 or should drain 5. (Health Potion)
      - Precious Pet should be reverted, it should stun the next unit that the enemy summons instead of Fearsome, like in preview patches. That change has also harmed Yasuo archetype.
      - Cursed Keeper should summon a 3/3 instead of 4/4.
      - Feral Mystic should be 3 mana 3/3 instead of 2 mana 2/2.
      - Herald of Spring should have 3 health.
      - Shatter should be a fast spell.
      - Golden Crushbot should be a 3/4 instead of 2/5.
      - Kindly Tavernkeeper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
      - Laurent Chevalier should have 2 health instead of 1.
      - Mageseeker Inciter needs a keyword. Barrier/Tough/Fearsome/Elusive/Challenger/Lifesteal/Overwhelm, any of them or should rework as a Detain on a stick.
      - Statikk Shock should draw cards as how much target it is cast on. If it targets 2 enemy, it should draw 2; if targets are destroyed before it, it should draw 0.
      - Funsmith should have 4 Health instead of 3.
      - Midenstokke Henchmen should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
      - Yusari needs a rework.
      - Hextech Transmogulator should cost 4 or 5 instead of 6. I can understand it was created for Lux/Heimerdinger decks but it's an expensive effect for 6 because it can only target followers.
      - The Rekindler's effect should be a play effect instead of When I'm summoned.
      - Icy Yeti should be 6 mana instead of 7. I don't think it will be problematic with Winter's Breath. They should be combo pieces together imo.
      - Jae Medarda is ok if we think about The Empyrean. I think elusive keyword needs a rework/rulechange so making Jae Medarda 7/7 with the change that i called above would be fair.
      - Ren Shadowblade should be 5/5 instead of 6/4.
      - Spectral Matron should be 7 mana 5/5 instead of 8 mana 6/6. After some changes of 7 mana minions (Tianna Crownguard, Rhasa the Sunderer) 7-mana spot is so blank imo.
      - Brightsteel Formation should lose its play effect and it should be only for attack.
      - Shady Character should work like burst spells or should have 2 health instead of 1.
      - Blood for Blood either should cost 2 or needs a rework.
      - Avarosan Trapper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
      - Arena Bookie should have 2 health instead of 1.
      - I think Mark of the Isles will be ok if ephemerals will have a rule change but if they will not, it should be +2/+2 instead of +3/+3.
      - Greenglade Caretaker and Fae Bladetwirler should gain +1 Attack instead of +2.
      - Boomcrew Rookie should have 3 health instead of 4.
      - Legion Saboteur should have 1 attack instead of 2.

      These are what I can think of. I can see that some of those cards' changes make others unnecessary but I really can't know what Riot will change so I just wrote them like they will be single buff/nerf.

      Card changes should not be necessary but I really think that there needs to be some rule changes.

      Rule changes:

      1. would make ephemerals way too weak.

      2. grown to be alright with them existing.. no need for it I think.. maybe nerf some of them.

      3. burst spells work fine as is.. their point is that they can't be interrupted and they happen in a burst.

      4. definitely no, it would be so much confusing if it worked that way.

      5. Disagree.. why would you restrict the normal version of spells, yes a lot of them are powerful but that way you restrict deck building.

      I disagree with most of your changes as well most cards you suggested are fine as they are: Ashe,Draven,Fiora,Katarina,Death Mark, Precious Pet,Shatter, Statikk Shock(4 mana draw 2? what?), Hextech TransmogulatorBADCARDNAME (is very flexible.. do you want this card to see play?),Brightsteel Formation, Legion Saboteur (if so make it 1/2, 1 mana 1/1s are unplayable).

      The rest I agree or don't care enough about them to comment.

      seem to be that 7 mana cards are really hard to balance since it's the point where the game shifts from mid game to late game.. in both hs and runettera they seem to be problematic either autoinclude or never played.

      • Quote From DoubleSummon
        Quote From Almaniarra
        Show Spoiler

        Hoping to see some rule changes instead of card/stat buffs/nerfs;

        - Ephemerals should disappear/die after taking damage from any source
        - Elusive keyword should be for 1 turn or for 1 attack for followers (not champions) or All elusive followers should have a text like "After I deal damage, I lose elusive.)
        - Burst spells should be cast after Burst spells. (That's never gonna happen tbh but one can hope.)
        - After "For this round" buffs, All units will return back to their damaged healths instead of restoring their health.
        - Spells of champions should not put into decks that doesn't have those champions and can't be created with random effects like Back Alley Barkeep or Karma. Example: You can't put Prismatic Barrier to a deck that doesn't have any Lux. This also might fix Relentless Pursuit's brokenness a bit so it shouldn't need a nerf at first place.

        Card Changes

        - Hecarim should lose his Overwhelm keyword or should lose one token.
        - Relentless Pursuit should cost 4.
        - Death Mark should be a slow spell as how they did for Intimidating Roar before which  killed Yasuo decks.
        - Karma's enlightened effect should disappear if Karma dies before the spell triggered.
        - Katarina needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
        - Kalista needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
        - Fiora should have 2 attack instead of 3.
        - Draven needs his old stats 4/3 instead of 3/3.
        - Ashe should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
        - Absorb Soul should be either cost 0 or should drain 5. (Health Potion)
        - Precious Pet should be reverted, it should stun the next unit that the enemy summons instead of Fearsome, like in preview patches. That change has also harmed Yasuo archetype.
        - Cursed Keeper should summon a 3/3 instead of 4/4.
        - Feral Mystic should be 3 mana 3/3 instead of 2 mana 2/2.
        - Herald of Spring should have 3 health.
        - Shatter should be a fast spell.
        - Golden Crushbot should be a 3/4 instead of 2/5.
        - Kindly Tavernkeeper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
        - Laurent Chevalier should have 2 health instead of 1.
        - Mageseeker Inciter needs a keyword. Barrier/Tough/Fearsome/Elusive/Challenger/Lifesteal/Overwhelm, any of them or should rework as a Detain on a stick.
        - Statikk Shock should draw cards as how much target it is cast on. If it targets 2 enemy, it should draw 2; if targets are destroyed before it, it should draw 0.
        - Funsmith should have 4 Health instead of 3.
        - Midenstokke Henchmen should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
        - Yusari needs a rework.
        - Hextech Transmogulator should cost 4 or 5 instead of 6. I can understand it was created for Lux/Heimerdinger decks but it's an expensive effect for 6 because it can only target followers.
        - The Rekindler's effect should be a play effect instead of When I'm summoned.
        - Icy Yeti should be 6 mana instead of 7. I don't think it will be problematic with Winter's Breath. They should be combo pieces together imo.
        - Jae Medarda is ok if we think about The Empyrean. I think elusive keyword needs a rework/rulechange so making Jae Medarda 7/7 with the change that i called above would be fair.
        - Ren Shadowblade should be 5/5 instead of 6/4.
        - Spectral Matron should be 7 mana 5/5 instead of 8 mana 6/6. After some changes of 7 mana minions (Tianna Crownguard, Rhasa the Sunderer) 7-mana spot is so blank imo.
        - Brightsteel Formation should lose its play effect and it should be only for attack.
        - Shady Character should work like burst spells or should have 2 health instead of 1.
        - Blood for Blood either should cost 2 or needs a rework.
        - Avarosan Trapper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
        - Arena Bookie should have 2 health instead of 1.
        - I think Mark of the Isles will be ok if ephemerals will have a rule change but if they will not, it should be +2/+2 instead of +3/+3.
        - Greenglade Caretaker and Fae Bladetwirler should gain +1 Attack instead of +2.
        - Boomcrew Rookie should have 3 health instead of 4.
        - Legion Saboteur should have 1 attack instead of 2.

        These are what I can think of. I can see that some of those cards' changes make others unnecessary but I really can't know what Riot will change so I just wrote them like they will be single buff/nerf.

        Card changes should not be necessary but I really think that there needs to be some rule changes.

        Rule changes:

        1. would make ephemerals way too weak.

        2. grown to be alright with them existing.. no need for it I think.. maybe nerf some of them.

        3. burst spells work fine as is.. their point is that they can't be interrupted and they happen in a burst.

        4. definitely no, it would be so much confusing if it worked that way.

        5. Disagree.. why would you restrict the normal version of spells, yes a lot of them are powerful but that way you restrict deck building.

        I disagree with most of your changes as well most cards you suggested are fine as they are: Ashe,Draven,Fiora,Katarina,Death Mark, Precious Pet,Shatter, Statikk Shock(4 mana draw 2? what?), Hextech Transmogulator (is very flexible.. do you want this card to see play?),Brightsteel Formation, Legion Saboteur (if so make it 1/2, 1 mana 1/1s are unplayable).

        The rest I agree or don't care enough about them to comment.

        seem to be that 7 mana cards are really hard to balance since it's the point where the game shifts from mid game to late game.. in both hs and runettera they seem to be problematic either autoinclude or never played.

        So you are ok with this ?

        There is a Radiant Guardian as 5/1 and Though. Your opponent uses Back to Back on her to block your 3/2 and makes her 8/4. She became  8/2 after battle phase ends;
        Right now, she became 5/2 after the turn ends. You can't kill her with Mystic Shot for example if you top-deck some. If the change I have called above is applied, it would became 5/1 after Back to Back's effect disappear so you would be able to kill her with your top-deck Mystic Shot.


        I don't think this is so confusing. People already confuses why they are healing instead of my change. All people expects units to revert back their current health instead of healing them.

        Ashe/Draven/Fiora ( I still think that 3/3 with Challenger with an additional win condition is overpowered, she should be 2/3)  might be ok-ish but i think that Katarina needs something to be more useful. The card already punishes you to lose tempo after she attacks and losing her to a Mystic Shot is way too punishing. 3/3 Katarina would be ok, more than overpowered.

        For Statikk Shock, What I was thinking is only for units, Targeting nexus won't give you a draw so it will make the card more counterable and situational imo.

        Death Mark should be a slow spell, I really don't get it why do you think it is ok. Spectral Rider's of Hecarim shouldn't be a target for Death Mark or attacking and changing ephemeral of Darkwater Scourge shouldn't be an option. It should be before or after attack, not on attack phase.

        Brightsteel Formation has too much for a unit, like how Tryndamere had Though before.

        1/2 Legion Saboteur would be ok but won't be so different with Boomcrew Rookie if it is 1/2.

        and I really think that 7 mana spot is way too much open for some regions after some good units got nerfed. Some cards should be fill that spot, Spectral Matron is a good canditate for Shadow Isles; Jae Medarda is a good option for P&Z, Noxus has already Savage Reckoner and that's an ok card. Mageseeker Persuader might be a good 7-cost unit with a rework or some stat changes after Tianna Crownguard left that spot, The Empyrean is already a great 7 drop, Freljord already has Anivia, Icy Yeti(Should be 6-cost)  and Ancient Yeti (not so 7 :D),

        and i think Signature spells needs to be signature so restricting them isn't that bad. I really can't understand why are most of you guys so close-minded for deckbuilding restrictions. Restrictions not so bad always.

        and elusives will continue to be problematic if there will be no rule changes. Inspiring Mentor and Kinkou Lifeblade nerfs proved it. You can't get rid of the fact with refusing the problems. Nerfs won't be solution with new buff cards + new elusive cards on the way. Nerfing elusives won't be enough, You will need to nerf buff cards aswell and it will harm other archetypes bad. Inspiring Mentor nerf already harmed some of the existing archetypes for example.

        • Quote From Almaniarra
          Quote From DoubleSummon
          Quote From Almaniarra
          Show Spoiler
          Show Spoiler

          Hoping to see some rule changes instead of card/stat buffs/nerfs;

          - Ephemerals should disappear/die after taking damage from any source
          - Elusive keyword should be for 1 turn or for 1 attack for followers (not champions) or All elusive followers should have a text like "After I deal damage, I lose elusive.)
          - Burst spells should be cast after Burst spells. (That's never gonna happen tbh but one can hope.)
          - After "For this round" buffs, All units will return back to their damaged healths instead of restoring their health.
          - Spells of champions should not put into decks that doesn't have those champions and can't be created with random effects like Back Alley Barkeep or Karma. Example: You can't put Prismatic Barrier to a deck that doesn't have any Lux. This also might fix Relentless Pursuit's brokenness a bit so it shouldn't need a nerf at first place.

          Card Changes

          - Hecarim should lose his Overwhelm keyword or should lose one token.
          - Relentless Pursuit should cost 4.
          - Death Mark should be a slow spell as how they did for Intimidating Roar before which  killed Yasuo decks.
          - Karma's enlightened effect should disappear if Karma dies before the spell triggered.
          - Katarina needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
          - Kalista needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
          - Fiora should have 2 attack instead of 3.
          - Draven needs his old stats 4/3 instead of 3/3.
          - Ashe should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
          - Absorb Soul should be either cost 0 or should drain 5. (Health Potion)
          - Precious Pet should be reverted, it should stun the next unit that the enemy summons instead of Fearsome, like in preview patches. That change has also harmed Yasuo archetype.
          - Cursed Keeper should summon a 3/3 instead of 4/4.
          - Feral Mystic should be 3 mana 3/3 instead of 2 mana 2/2.
          - Herald of Spring should have 3 health.
          - Shatter should be a fast spell.
          - Golden Crushbot should be a 3/4 instead of 2/5.
          - Kindly Tavernkeeper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
          - Laurent Chevalier should have 2 health instead of 1.
          - Mageseeker Inciter needs a keyword. Barrier/Tough/Fearsome/Elusive/Challenger/Lifesteal/Overwhelm, any of them or should rework as a Detain on a stick.
          - Statikk Shock should draw cards as how much target it is cast on. If it targets 2 enemy, it should draw 2; if targets are destroyed before it, it should draw 0.
          - Funsmith should have 4 Health instead of 3.
          - Midenstokke Henchmen should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
          - Yusari needs a rework.
          - Hextech Transmogulator should cost 4 or 5 instead of 6. I can understand it was created for Lux/Heimerdinger decks but it's an expensive effect for 6 because it can only target followers.
          - The Rekindler's effect should be a play effect instead of When I'm summoned.
          - Icy Yeti should be 6 mana instead of 7. I don't think it will be problematic with Winter's Breath. They should be combo pieces together imo.
          - Jae Medarda is ok if we think about The Empyrean. I think elusive keyword needs a rework/rulechange so making Jae Medarda 7/7 with the change that i called above would be fair.
          - Ren Shadowblade should be 5/5 instead of 6/4.
          - Spectral Matron should be 7 mana 5/5 instead of 8 mana 6/6. After some changes of 7 mana minions (Tianna Crownguard, Rhasa the Sunderer) 7-mana spot is so blank imo.
          - Brightsteel Formation should lose its play effect and it should be only for attack.
          - Shady Character should work like burst spells or should have 2 health instead of 1.
          - Blood for Blood either should cost 2 or needs a rework.
          - Avarosan Trapper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
          - Arena Bookie should have 2 health instead of 1.
          - I think Mark of the Isles will be ok if ephemerals will have a rule change but if they will not, it should be +2/+2 instead of +3/+3.
          - Greenglade Caretaker and Fae Bladetwirler should gain +1 Attack instead of +2.
          - Boomcrew Rookie should have 3 health instead of 4.
          - Legion Saboteur should have 1 attack instead of 2.

          These are what I can think of. I can see that some of those cards' changes make others unnecessary but I really can't know what Riot will change so I just wrote them like they will be single buff/nerf.

          Card changes should not be necessary but I really think that there needs to be some rule changes.

          Rule changes:

          1. would make ephemerals way too weak.

          2. grown to be alright with them existing.. no need for it I think.. maybe nerf some of them.

          3. burst spells work fine as is.. their point is that they can't be interrupted and they happen in a burst.

          4. definitely no, it would be so much confusing if it worked that way.

          5. Disagree.. why would you restrict the normal version of spells, yes a lot of them are powerful but that way you restrict deck building.

          I disagree with most of your changes as well most cards you suggested are fine as they are: Ashe,Draven,Fiora,Katarina,Death Mark, Precious Pet,Shatter, Statikk Shock(4 mana draw 2? what?), Hextech Transmogulator (is very flexible.. do you want this card to see play?),Brightsteel Formation, Legion Saboteur (if so make it 1/2, 1 mana 1/1s are unplayable).

          The rest I agree or don't care enough about them to comment.

          seem to be that 7 mana cards are really hard to balance since it's the point where the game shifts from mid game to late game.. in both hs and runettera they seem to be problematic either autoinclude or never played.

          So you are ok with this ?

          Quote From Author
          There is a Radiant Guardian as 5/1 and Though. Your opponent uses Back to Back on her to block your 3/2 and makes her 8/4. She became  8/2 after battle phase ends;
          Right now, she became 5/2 after the turn ends. You can't kill her with Mystic Shot for example if you top-deck some. If the change I have called above is applied, it would became 5/1 after Back to Back's effect disappear so you would be able to kill her with your top-deck Mystic Shot.


          I don't think this is so confusing. People already confuses why they are healing instead of my change. All people expects units to revert back their current health instead of healing them.

          Ashe/Draven/Fiora ( I still think that 3/3 with Challenger with an additional win condition is overpowered, she should be 2/3)  might be ok-ish but i think that Katarina needs something to be more useful. The card already punishes you to lose tempo after she attacks and losing her to a Mystic Shot is way too punishing. 3/3 Katarina would be ok, more than overpowered.

          For Statikk Shock, What I was thinking is only for units, Targeting nexus won't give you a draw so it will make the card more counterable and situational imo.

          Death Mark should be a slow spell, I really don't get it why do you think it is ok. Spectral Rider's of Hecarim shouldn't be a target for Death Mark or attacking and changing ephemeral of Darkwater Scourge shouldn't be an option. It should be before or after attack, not on attack phase.

          Brightsteel Formation has too much for a unit, like how Tryndamere had Though before.

          1/2 Legion Saboteur would be ok but won't be so different with Boomcrew Rookie if it is 1/2.

          and I really think that 7 mana spot is way too much open for some regions after some good units got nerfed. Some cards should be fill that spot, Spectral Matron is a good canditate for Shadow Isles; Jae Medarda is a good option for P&Z, Noxus has already Savage Reckoner and that's an ok card. Mageseeker Persuader might be a good 7-cost unit with a rework or some stat changes after Tianna Crownguard left that spot, The Empyrean is already a great 7 drop, Freljord already has Anivia, Icy Yeti(Should be 6-cost)  and Ancient Yeti (not so 7 :D),

          and i think Signature spells needs to be signature so restricting them isn't that bad. I really can't understand why are most of you guys so close-minded for deckbuilding restrictions. Restrictions not so bad always.

          and elusives will continue to be problematic if there will be no rule changes. Inspiring Mentor and Kinkou Lifeblade nerfs proved it. You can't get rid of the fact with refusing the problems. Nerfs won't be solution with new buff cards + new elusive cards on the way. Nerfing elusives won't be enough, You will need to nerf buff cards aswell and it will harm other archetypes bad. Inspiring Mentor nerf already harmed some of the existing archetypes for example.

           

          It would be confusing for units to suddenly die after a combat if they survived, dunno I am ok with how it works right now.

          I think nerfing Fiora's attack would kill her as a win condition and as a card it's a champion card they are supposed to be stronger than any follower, the only change I would do if any is one I suggested already and it's the level up change from 2 before and 2 after to 3 before and 1 after(kills I mean)

          Katarina is FINE.. you need to protect her if you want her to survive, that's why her level up condition is so "easy" because it's actually not cause she dies to so much stuff, look up mogwai's kata build it's very potent and you will see kata is quite successful if you play her at the right time with the right back up.

          I see a lot of decks do run a lot of followers adding +2 card advantage to control decks is a lot.. (With your suggested statikk shock change), sure in some situations you can react to it better but in most situations you buff the hell out of heimer and ez decks.

          Death Mark is quite hard to set up and can be countered with a lot of cards if any target leaves the board it's canceled, you NEED an ephemeral target,you need 3 mana.. you need a target you want to eliminate.. the card has enough counter play so it doesn't need to be nerfed, if anything maybe Mark of the Isles needs to be nerfed if it costs 2 mana this card is even more fair.

          Also Hecarim is getting nerfed so another nerf to this situational card.

          Brightsteel Formation is a 9 mana cost unit/follower, having them in a deck has a high cost as you can't play the card until VERY late in a match if it doesn't win you the game more often than not then it's too weak in my opinion.

          Legion Saboteur at 1/1 would never see any play, it's not that great as it is anyway.

          I don't understand why you would want to restrict those spells to only be on decks that the champions are in, it makes you build a deck sub optimally because you want to run a specific card, specially when some of them are niche and some don't actually fit into a deck the champion is run in, besides it makes it so you have cards in your collection you can't run without a specific champion, don't see how it's a problem. if any of those spells is problematic then it should be nerfed/changed.. but restricting you to play champion cards you don't want to put into your deck because you want to play a spell.. no.

          Elusives are counterable, I every region has the tools to deal with elusives:

          Freljord: freeze.

          Noxus: rush down,challengers,culling strike.

          Ionia: fight fire with fire, they have elusives.

          P&Z: direct damage removal, heimer's 3 mana turrets.

          Demacia: purify,detain, challengers.

          Shadow isles: tonnes of removal options, heals, AOE,vengence... etc.

          Don't think they are such a big deal post nerfs but if more of them get hit I won't be too sad/surprised.

           

           

          • Quote From DoubleSummon
            Quote From Almaniarra
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            Quote From DoubleSummon
            Quote From Almaniarra
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            Hoping to see some rule changes instead of card/stat buffs/nerfs;

            - Ephemerals should disappear/die after taking damage from any source
            - Elusive keyword should be for 1 turn or for 1 attack for followers (not champions) or All elusive followers should have a text like "After I deal damage, I lose elusive.)
            - Burst spells should be cast after Burst spells. (That's never gonna happen tbh but one can hope.)
            - After "For this round" buffs, All units will return back to their damaged healths instead of restoring their health.
            - Spells of champions should not put into decks that doesn't have those champions and can't be created with random effects like Back Alley Barkeep or Karma. Example: You can't put Prismatic Barrier to a deck that doesn't have any Lux. This also might fix Relentless Pursuit's brokenness a bit so it shouldn't need a nerf at first place.

            Card Changes

            - Hecarim should lose his Overwhelm keyword or should lose one token.
            - Relentless Pursuit should cost 4.
            - Death Mark should be a slow spell as how they did for Intimidating Roar before which  killed Yasuo decks.
            - Karma's enlightened effect should disappear if Karma dies before the spell triggered.
            - Katarina needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
            - Kalista needs to have 3 health instead of 2.
            - Fiora should have 2 attack instead of 3.
            - Draven needs his old stats 4/3 instead of 3/3.
            - Ashe should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
            - Absorb Soul should be either cost 0 or should drain 5. (Health Potion)
            - Precious Pet should be reverted, it should stun the next unit that the enemy summons instead of Fearsome, like in preview patches. That change has also harmed Yasuo archetype.
            - Cursed Keeper should summon a 3/3 instead of 4/4.
            - Feral Mystic should be 3 mana 3/3 instead of 2 mana 2/2.
            - Herald of Spring should have 3 health.
            - Shatter should be a fast spell.
            - Golden Crushbot should be a 3/4 instead of 2/5.
            - Kindly Tavernkeeper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
            - Laurent Chevalier should have 2 health instead of 1.
            - Mageseeker Inciter needs a keyword. Barrier/Tough/Fearsome/Elusive/Challenger/Lifesteal/Overwhelm, any of them or should rework as a Detain on a stick.
            - Statikk Shock should draw cards as how much target it is cast on. If it targets 2 enemy, it should draw 2; if targets are destroyed before it, it should draw 0.
            - Funsmith should have 4 Health instead of 3.
            - Midenstokke Henchmen should be 4/4 instead of 5/3.
            - Yusari needs a rework.
            - Hextech Transmogulator should cost 4 or 5 instead of 6. I can understand it was created for Lux/Heimerdinger decks but it's an expensive effect for 6 because it can only target followers.
            - The Rekindler's effect should be a play effect instead of When I'm summoned.
            - Icy Yeti should be 6 mana instead of 7. I don't think it will be problematic with Winter's Breath. They should be combo pieces together imo.
            - Jae Medarda is ok if we think about The Empyrean. I think elusive keyword needs a rework/rulechange so making Jae Medarda 7/7 with the change that i called above would be fair.
            - Ren Shadowblade should be 5/5 instead of 6/4.
            - Spectral Matron should be 7 mana 5/5 instead of 8 mana 6/6. After some changes of 7 mana minions (Tianna Crownguard, Rhasa the Sunderer) 7-mana spot is so blank imo.
            - Brightsteel Formation should lose its play effect and it should be only for attack.
            - Shady Character should work like burst spells or should have 2 health instead of 1.
            - Blood for Blood either should cost 2 or needs a rework.
            - Avarosan Trapper should have 3 attack instead of 2.
            - Arena Bookie should have 2 health instead of 1.
            - I think Mark of the Isles will be ok if ephemerals will have a rule change but if they will not, it should be +2/+2 instead of +3/+3.
            - Greenglade Caretaker and Fae Bladetwirler should gain +1 Attack instead of +2.
            - Boomcrew Rookie should have 3 health instead of 4.
            - Legion Saboteur should have 1 attack instead of 2.

            These are what I can think of. I can see that some of those cards' changes make others unnecessary but I really can't know what Riot will change so I just wrote them like they will be single buff/nerf.

            Card changes should not be necessary but I really think that there needs to be some rule changes.

            Rule changes:

            1. would make ephemerals way too weak.

            2. grown to be alright with them existing.. no need for it I think.. maybe nerf some of them.

            3. burst spells work fine as is.. their point is that they can't be interrupted and they happen in a burst.

            4. definitely no, it would be so much confusing if it worked that way.

            5. Disagree.. why would you restrict the normal version of spells, yes a lot of them are powerful but that way you restrict deck building.

            I disagree with most of your changes as well most cards you suggested are fine as they are: Ashe,Draven,Fiora,Katarina,Death Mark, Precious Pet,Shatter, Statikk Shock(4 mana draw 2? what?), Hextech Transmogulator (is very flexible.. do you want this card to see play?),Brightsteel Formation, Legion Saboteur (if so make it 1/2, 1 mana 1/1s are unplayable).

            The rest I agree or don't care enough about them to comment.

            seem to be that 7 mana cards are really hard to balance since it's the point where the game shifts from mid game to late game.. in both hs and runettera they seem to be problematic either autoinclude or never played.

            So you are ok with this ?

            Quote From Author
            There is a Radiant Guardian as 5/1 and Though. Your opponent uses Back to Back on her to block your 3/2 and makes her 8/4. She became  8/2 after battle phase ends;
            Right now, she became 5/2 after the turn ends. You can't kill her with Mystic Shot for example if you top-deck some. If the change I have called above is applied, it would became 5/1 after Back to Back's effect disappear so you would be able to kill her with your top-deck Mystic Shot.


            I don't think this is so confusing. People already confuses why they are healing instead of my change. All people expects units to revert back their current health instead of healing them.

            Ashe/Draven/Fiora ( I still think that 3/3 with Challenger with an additional win condition is overpowered, she should be 2/3)  might be ok-ish but i think that Katarina needs something to be more useful. The card already punishes you to lose tempo after she attacks and losing her to a Mystic Shot is way too punishing. 3/3 Katarina would be ok, more than overpowered.

            For Statikk Shock, What I was thinking is only for units, Targeting nexus won't give you a draw so it will make the card more counterable and situational imo.

            Death Mark should be a slow spell, I really don't get it why do you think it is ok. Spectral Rider's of Hecarim shouldn't be a target for Death Mark or attacking and changing ephemeral of Darkwater Scourge shouldn't be an option. It should be before or after attack, not on attack phase.

            Brightsteel Formation has too much for a unit, like how Tryndamere had Though before.

            1/2 Legion Saboteur would be ok but won't be so different with Boomcrew Rookie if it is 1/2.

            and I really think that 7 mana spot is way too much open for some regions after some good units got nerfed. Some cards should be fill that spot, Spectral Matron is a good canditate for Shadow Isles; Jae Medarda is a good option for P&Z, Noxus has already Savage Reckoner and that's an ok card. Mageseeker Persuader might be a good 7-cost unit with a rework or some stat changes after Tianna Crownguard left that spot, The Empyrean is already a great 7 drop, Freljord already has Anivia, Icy Yeti(Should be 6-cost)  and Ancient Yeti (not so 7 :D),

            and i think Signature spells needs to be signature so restricting them isn't that bad. I really can't understand why are most of you guys so close-minded for deckbuilding restrictions. Restrictions not so bad always.

            and elusives will continue to be problematic if there will be no rule changes. Inspiring Mentor and Kinkou Lifeblade nerfs proved it. You can't get rid of the fact with refusing the problems. Nerfs won't be solution with new buff cards + new elusive cards on the way. Nerfing elusives won't be enough, You will need to nerf buff cards aswell and it will harm other archetypes bad. Inspiring Mentor nerf already harmed some of the existing archetypes for example.


            It would be confusing for units to suddenly die after a combat if they survived, dunno I am ok with how it works right now.

            I think nerfing Fiora's attack would kill her as a win condition and as a card it's a champion card they are supposed to be stronger than any follower, the only change I would do if any is one I suggested already and it's the level up change from 2 before and 2 after to 3 before and 1 after(kills I mean)

            Katarina is FINE.. you need to protect her if you want her to survive, that's why her level up condition is so "easy" because it's actually not cause she dies to so much stuff, look up mogwai's kata build it's very potent and you will see kata is quite successful if you play her at the right time with the right back up.

            I see a lot of decks do run a lot of followers adding +2 card advantage to control decks is a lot.. (With your suggested statikk shock change), sure in some situations you can react to it better but in most situations you buff the hell out of heimer and ez decks.

            Death Mark is quite hard to set up and can be countered with a lot of cards if any target leaves the board it's canceled, you NEED an ephemeral target,you need 3 mana.. you need a target you want to eliminate.. the card has enough counter play so it doesn't need to be nerfed, if anything maybe Mark of the Isles needs to be nerfed if it costs 2 mana this card is even more fair.

            Also Hecarim is getting nerfed so another nerf to this situational card.

            Brightsteel Formation is a 9 mana cost unit/follower, having them in a deck has a high cost as you can't play the card until VERY late in a match if it doesn't win you the game more often than not then it's too weak in my opinion.

            Legion Saboteur at 1/1 would never see any play, it's not that great as it is anyway.

            I don't understand why you would want to restrict those spells to only be on decks that the champions are in, it makes you build a deck sub optimally because you want to run a specific card, specially when some of them are niche and some don't actually fit into a deck the champion is run in, besides it makes it so you have cards in your collection you can't run without a specific champion, don't see how it's a problem. if any of those spells is problematic then it should be nerfed/changed.. but restricting you to play champion cards you don't want to put into your deck because you want to play a spell.. no.

            Elusives are counterable, I every region has the tools to deal with elusives:

            Freljord: freeze.

            Noxus: rush down,challengers,culling strike.

            Ionia: fight fire with fire, they have elusives.

            P&Z: direct damage removal, heimer's 3 mana turrets.

            Demacia: purify,detain, challengers.

            Shadow isles: tonnes of removal options, heals, AOE,vengence... etc.

            Don't think they are such a big deal post nerfs but if more of them get hit I won't be too sad/surprised. 

            Well, My concern about Katarina might be about my passion with her, I must confess. :)

            I am not saying elusives not counterable, I'm saying it will be more problematic as the game grows, that's all. Don't get me wrong, right now it is on a good spot but in time it will be more problematic with more hand/deck buff cards and more elusive units.

            we need to aggree on disagree about Death Mark I guess. I really don't think any of Hecarim, Mark of the Isles nerfs will solve the issue about that card because of Darkwater Scourge.

            but you are probably right about Legion Saboteur and Brightsteel Formation, especially when we think about Commander Ledros.

            Fiora needs some changes but I really can't decide which part of her might be tinkered so I wanted to change her attack stat. 3/3 challenger feels so much powered tbh. Think about Draven, ok, when he levels-up, he is the only unit in game that has both Overwhelm + Quick Attack at the same time but does nothing compared to Fiora when he enters the battlefield and he is also 3/3.

            Don't get me wrong btw, I really think that the game so much canditates to make all of the champions work, I have already some ways to make them work even for weakest one. I'm not whining, just trying to make some suggestions to balance the game and sharing what i experienced in the game.

        • Quote From Almaniarra
          Quote From Author
          There is a Radiant Guardian as 5/1 and Though. Your opponent uses Back to Back on her to block your 3/2 and makes her 8/4. She became  8/2 after battle phase ends;
          Right now, she became 5/2 after the turn ends. You can't kill her with Mystic Shot for example if you top-deck some. If the change I have called above is applied, it would became 5/1 after Back to Back's effect disappear so you would be able to kill her with your top-deck Mystic Shot.

          I don't think this is so confusing. People already confuses why they are healing instead of my change. All people expects units to revert back their current health instead of healing them.

          Thanks for providing an example - this helped me better understand your point. However, I disagree that it would be more intuitive. In fact, I'd say it's the least logically consistent solution out of 3 alternatives:

          1. The game currently ups the maximum health of the unit and permanently heals it by the same amount.

          2. The game could only increase and heal the unit's health for the current round. This would mean that in your example, the Radiant Guardian would die since the 3 health subtraction would reduce it to -1 health. (This is what I initially thought you were suggesting)

          3. Your suggestion: The buff effect temporarily increases max health and heals the unit; after the round, if the unit's current health exceeds what its current health was before the buff took effect, reduce its health to that old value instead.

          I'd say #3 is an overly complicated solution compared to the other 2. For discussions on a topic like this, we always need to keep in mind that Runeterra calculates unit health in the form of a 'damage counter' on each unit. Options #1 and #2 are both very straightforward in this sense (the difference being that one of them provides a lasting heal while the other doesn't), while #3 is sort of an awkward mix between the two.

          Since #2 would make health buffs almost pointless and #3 is not very consistent with the game's underlying rules, I think keeping things as they are (#1) is the best choice. Cards are already (at least somewhat) balanced to account for this: Elixir of Iron 'heals' 2 while also providing a temporary max health increase while Health Potion heals 3 for the same cost. Maybe buffs are a little too strong compared to healing overall, but I would fix that by adjusting individual card power rather than changing the rules altogether.

           

          Also, I will mention one card that I believe is absolutely sleeper-OP: Battering Ram. I boggles my mind that this doesn't see more play. I only own 1 copy, but I'm planning to build a deck including it soon. In my opinion, the attack buff effect either needs to only last for the current round or be reduced to +2 attack. In addition, reducing its health to 10 might be called for.

          • Quote From BlueSpark
            Show Spoiler
            Quote From Almaniarra
            Quote From Author
            There is a Radiant Guardian as 5/1 and Though. Your opponent uses Back to Back on her to block your 3/2 and makes her 8/4. She became  8/2 after battle phase ends;
            Right now, she became 5/2 after the turn ends. You can't kill her with Mystic Shot for example if you top-deck some. If the change I have called above is applied, it would became 5/1 after Back to Back's effect disappear so you would be able to kill her with your top-deck Mystic Shot.

            I don't think this is so confusing. People already confuses why they are healing instead of my change. All people expects units to revert back their current health instead of healing them.

            Thanks for providing an example - this helped me better understand your point. However, I disagree that it would be more intuitive. In fact, I'd say it's the least logically consistent solution out of 3 alternatives:

            1. The game currently ups the maximum health of the unit and permanently heals it by the same amount.

            2. The game could only increase and heal the unit's health for the current round. This would mean that in your example, the Radiant Guardian would die since the 3 health subtraction would reduce it to -1 health. (This is what I initially thought you were suggesting)

            3. Your suggestion: The buff effect temporarily increases max health and heals the unit; after the round, if the unit's current health exceeds what its current health was before the buff took effect, reduce its health to that old value instead.

            I'd say #3 is an overly complicated solution compared to the other 2. For discussions on a topic like this, we always need to keep in mind that Runeterra calculates unit health in the form of a 'damage counter' on each unit. Options #1 and #2 are both very straightforward in this sense (the difference being that one of them provides a lasting heal while the other doesn't), while #3 is sort of an awkward mix between the two.

            Since #2 would make health buffs almost pointless and #3 is not very consistent with the game's underlying rules, I think keeping things as they are (#1) is the best choice. Cards are already (at least somewhat) balanced to account for this: Elixir of Iron 'heals' 2 while also providing a temporary max health increase while Health Potion heals 3 for the same cost. Maybe buffs are a little too strong compared to healing overall, but I would fix that by adjusting individual card power rather than changing the rules altogether.


             

            Also, I will mention one card that I believe is absolutely sleeper-OP: Battering Ram. I boggles my mind that this doesn't see more play. I only own 1 copy, but I'm planning to build a deck including it soon. In my opinion, the attack buff effect either needs to only last for the current round or be reduced to +2 attack. In addition, reducing its health to 10 might be called for.

            I've seen some in action, if they are able to protect them enough, that card is lethal single-handedly. Saw some Katarina-Battering Ram build-arounds also. Seems fun. I need to try it by myself. You might be right about its brokenness. Just one attack will be enough for everything it needs. Blocks Fearsome units also. I think that card should have Can't block with its huge Health or as you said, permanent attack should be reverted. Might be read as "Attack: Grant me +4|+0. End of Turn: Grant me -2|-0." or something like that.

          • @bluespark, Almaniarra:

            runs both kata and battering ram, the cards are being played at high ranking and doing actually good..

            Battering ram if it's not played it's because of the many freeze effects in the meta also it doesn't protect you much from hard removal, elnuks or hecarim spam, or elusives (assumption: the top 3 decks in the meta is freeze ezreal,fearsome/rally,elusives)

    • Almaniarra, you posted change suggestions for over 10% of the cards in the game, and I'm having a hard time engaging on your various suggested nerfs/buffs. Would you please organize your nerfs into themes (e.g. "Deck archetype X seems like it's under-performing, so here are some nerfs/buffs to help fix that."). Right now many of them feel kind of arbitrary and it's hard to understand why you think the change is necessary/what impact it will have on the health of the metagame

      Regarding your rule changes:

      • If Ephemeral units die after taking damage from any source, most of them will be made totally useless because of how easy it is to deal 1 damage. I think the goal of Ephemeral units generally is to have strong offensive turns and fairly weak defensive turns, and your proposed change just makes them weak all-around. 
      • Elusive is a keyword, so I'm strongly opposed to the idea of having it behave differently on Champions. Adding the "After I deal damage, I lose Elusive" text to followers gets around that issue, but such a rule change would require a significant shift in their stats since they'd just be normal, understated minions after that first hit
      • If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the stack should allow for burst speed responses to burst speed spells. I think this would actually take  something away from the game that makes it interesting/unique when compared to other CCGs
      • There's already been some discussion on the damaged HP issue, but I tend to agree that the way it works now is the most intuitive, even if it can be very frustrating for damage-based removal tools that get negated by buffs. I think a better way to deal with those kinds of interactions is to slow down or speed up some spells to make damage-based removal more consistent.
      • This last rule is very interesting, but I'm not convinced it's a good idea. Basically this rule says that the "Champion Spell" as a standalone card is special, and must be paired with the champion. I think the ultimate result of such a change would be increased play rates for Champions whose spells are very much a "win more" for them (e.g. Ezreal's Mystic Shot), which in turn would result in play rates dropping for other Champions who don't (e.g. Katarina's Death Lotus, which really helps other Champions/Archetypes more than her). To your point about Relentless Pursuit, I expect that rather than reduce the frequency of seeing it in play, it would just mean more decks that want to run it would run Lucian. Ultimately this would make the game less interesting by forcing Champion choices based on these spells and not on the Champions themselves.
      • Quote From meisterz39

        Almaniarra, you posted change suggestions for over 10% of the cards in the game, and I'm having a hard time engaging on your various suggested nerfs/buffs. Would you please organize your nerfs into themes (e.g. "Deck archetype X seems like it's under-performing, so here are some nerfs/buffs to help fix that."). Right now many of them feel kind of arbitrary and it's hard to understand why you think the change is necessary/what impact it will have on the health of the metagame

        They were mostly in general for deckbuilding. If you look at my suggestions you can see that units are generally overused or not so used ones.

        For Example, Precious Pet - Were a good part of yasuo decks in the first preview, Now it is the part of the most of aggressive decks. Low mana fearsome units are unnecessarily powerful. Ok, There are some plays to counter them but full of them might be frustrating so reverting its change will help on decreasing the aggressiveness of those deck + might help Yasuo Archetype.
        Karma - I don't think she is overpowered and i can see why her doubling spell doesn't disappear if she dies before spell triggers but well, this is not so healthy in my opinion and it is not just for an archetype.

        • If Ephemeral units die after taking damage from any source, most of them will be made totally useless because of how easy it is to deal 1 damage. I think the goal of Ephemeral units generally is to have strong offensive turns and fairly weak defensive turns, and your proposed change just makes them weak all-around. 

        I don't think that they will be weak with this change. Ephemeral units are always higher stats for their costs, Shadow Fiend 1-mana 4/3 , Shark Chariot 2-mana 3/1 and comes back everytime, Haunted Relic 2-mana 3/3 , Darkwater Scourge 3-mana 5/5, Onslaught of Shadows 3-mana 6/4, Hecarim 6-mana 10/10, Mark of the Isles 1-mana +3/+3.

        Ok they won't leave bodies on the field but changing the rule is better than nerfing all ephemeral units in my opinion. It already punishes you to spend your resources to temporary units. This change will answer most of the broken situations about them, Hecarim/Mark of the Isles/Darkwater Scourge/Death Mark etc. instead of nerfing all of these cards seperately.

        • Elusive is a keyword, so I'm strongly opposed to the idea of having it behave differently on Champions. Adding the "After I deal damage, I lose Elusive" text to followers gets around that issue, but such a rule change would require a significant shift in their stats since they'd just be normal, understated minions after that first hit



        This change makes elusive units more attack-oriented like how they are used right now. Unbuffed elusives are not an issue already. This change makes players more attentive when they should attack and prevents the game being braindead face game

        • If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the stack should allow for burst speed responses to burst speed spells. I think this would actually take  something away from the game that makes it interesting/unique when compared to other CCGs



        Well, You might be right about this. maybe it is not a solution to burst buff spells and maybe just nerfing the burst buffs might be a better solution.

        • There's already been some discussion on the damaged HP issue, but I tend to agree that the way it works now is the most intuitive, even if it can be very frustrating for damage-based removal tools that get negated by buffs. I think a better way to deal with those kinds of interactions is to slow down or speed up some spells to make damage-based removal more consistent.



        Speeding up/Slowing down might bring some other issues. I really don't get it why it is so hard and confusing to understand this. A single-use buff should be single-use. That's so simple. +2 health buff for a round should stay for one round. Shouldn't heal the unit. It doesn't make the unit die suddenly after the turn ends because it will go back to its previous health once the turn ends.

        • This last rule is very interesting, but I'm not convinced it's a good idea. Basically this rule says that the "Champion Spell" as a standalone card is special, and must be paired with the champion. I think the ultimate result of such a change would be increased play rates for Champions whose spells are very much a "win more" for them (e.g. Ezreal's Mystic Shot), which in turn would result in play rates dropping for other Champions who don't (e.g. Katarina's Death Lotus, which really helps other Champions/Archetypes more than her). To your point about Relentless Pursuit, I expect that rather than reduce the frequency of seeing it in play, it would just mean more decks that want to run it would run Lucian. Ultimately this would make the game less interesting by forcing Champion choices based on these spells and not on the Champions themselves.



        It was a flavour related suggestion at first tbh. and then i figured that might help for some other broken interactions with Relentless Pursuit and random Shadowshifts/Prismatic Barriers from Karma while you don't have any Lux or Zed in your deck. It is really weird to see a Living Shadow without a Zed in the deck tbh. You feel like; "There is no Zed, whose Living Shadow is this !? It looks like Zed Already !?" or "well well, those laurents learns to use the way of the light, really !? Where is this Prismatic Barrier coming from without a Lux !?"

        I mean, Fiora and Laurents should use her own barrier, If you want to recall Karma without a Zed, You should use Recall. You want pinging your minions ? go for Blood for Blood or Transfusion with Vladimir instead of Death Lotus.

        Contrarily to you, I really think that this opens more deckbuilding opportunities rather than limiting it. If you want to use Death Lotus in your Vladimir deck, You should try a Katarina/Vladimir deck instead of throwing 2x Death Lotus without a Katarina in your deck for example.

        This feels and seems openning more opportunities for deckbuilding for me. Also seems more logical for that The singature spells are cast by those champions.

        • Quote From Almaniarra
          Ok they won't leave bodies on the field but changing the rule is better than nerfing all ephemeral units in my opinion. It already punishes you to spend your resources to temporary units. This change will answer most of the broken situations about them, Hecarim/Mark of the Isles/Darkwater Scourge/Death Mark etc. instead of nerfing all of these cards seperately.

          I don't agree with this; it only reduces the power of ephemerals against regions / deck archetypes which have easy access to small damage spells. I'd rather see across-the-board nerfs to ephemeral cards if it turns out they're oppressively strong.

          Quote From Almaniarra
          I really don't get it why it is so hard and confusing to understand this. A single-use buff should be single-use. That's so simple. +2 health buff for a round should stay for one round. Shouldn't heal the unit. It doesn't make the unit die suddenly after the turn ends because it will go back to its previous health once the turn ends.

          Well, as I tried to explain as elaborately as possible in my last post, your desired functionality for one-round buffs is - at least in my eyes - the least intuitive out of 3 possible scenarios. The more logically consistent options would be to either heal and keep the full amount of the health buff or heal and then remove the full amount of the buff at the end of the round. Your suggestion lies somewhere in the middle and might make a lot of sense from a generic video-game perspective, but not from a conventional CCG perspective.

          Quote From Almaniarra
          Contrarily to you, I really think that this opens more deckbuilding opportunities rather than limiting it. If you want to use Death Lotus in your Vladimir deck, You should try a Katarina/Vladimir deck instead of throwing 2x Death Lotus without a Katarina in your deck for example.

          This feels and seems openning more opportunities for deckbuilding for me. Also seems more logical for that The singature spells are cast by those champions.

          As I mentioned earlier, I'm not quite sure whether I like this idea or not. However, I will point out that this might lead to more champions being splashed into certain decks as a 1-of, which would be an interesting alternative to the prevalent trend of running mostly 3-ofs.

        • Quote From Almaniarra
          Quote From meisterz39
           


          Quote From Author

           

          • This last rule is very interesting, but I'm not convinced it's a good idea. Basically this rule says that the "Champion Spell" as a standalone card is special, and must be paired with the champion. I think the ultimate result of such a change would be increased play rates for Champions whose spells are very much a "win more" for them (e.g. Ezreal's Mystic Shot), which in turn would result in play rates dropping for other Champions who don't (e.g. Katarina's Death Lotus, which really helps other Champions/Archetypes more than her). To your point about Relentless Pursuit, I expect that rather than reduce the frequency of seeing it in play, it would just mean more decks that want to run it would run Lucian. Ultimately this would make the game less interesting by forcing Champion choices based on these spells and not on the Champions themselves.

           



          It was a flavour related suggestion at first tbh. and then i figured that might help for some other broken interactions with Relentless Pursuit and random Shadowshifts/Prismatic Barriers from Karma while you don't have any Lux or Zed in your deck. It is really weird to see a Living Shadow without a Zed in the deck tbh. You feel like; "There is no Zed, whose Living Shadow is this !? It looks like Zed Already !?" or "well well, those laurents learns to use the way of the light, really !? Where is this Prismatic Barrier coming from without a Lux !?"

          I mean, Fiora and Laurents should use her own barrier, If you want to recall Karma without a Zed, You should use Recall. You want pinging your minions ? go for Blood for Blood or Transfusion with Vladimir instead of Death Lotus.

          Contrarily to you, I really think that this opens more deckbuilding opportunities rather than limiting it. If you want to use Death Lotus in your Vladimir deck, You should try a Katarina/Vladimir deck instead of throwing 2x Death Lotus without a Katarina in your deck for example.

          This feels and seems openning more opportunities for deckbuilding for me. Also seems more logical for that The singature spells are cast by those champions.

           

          It actually closes deckbuilding cause nothing restricts you from currently running kata/vladimir.

          It would make many builds really weird "I run this card that doesn't fit my deck at all, or is sub optimal t run another card that is too good to not run in my deck"

          PLus champions are expensive, sure the game economy is kind but once the game gets bigger you make people who crafted certain spells or got it randomly HAVE to waste 3000 shards or champion wild cards into trying a card.. that's bad.

          The current state of the game where a lot of deck building is rewarded and you have a lot of options will be lost when you restrict currently 24 spells into having to run a specific champion. I don't see the win in this change and also I think the chances of such chance are just 0, Riot won't do that, they got more to lose of that than to win, it will confuse the hell out of new players who make decks and will make some deck building clunky.

          having inherent restrictions is much worse than say a Reno Jackson or elnuks where you get to choose HOW you will use the restriction, having system locked restrictions is bad design see: Baku the Mooneater and Genn Greymane.

          Where with higlander cards in hearthstone you have a restriction to play the card while in game so you can play around it (for example galakround warlock running dragonqueen alexstraza with MANY duplicates in the deck)

  • I continue to be frustrated by the lack of statistics available on decks in LoR - I think that makes it really hard to determine which cards should be nerfed - but if you trust the meta tier lists on Mobalytics, then the cards that need to get hit are going to be the Ionia and Shadow Isles cards that are dominating the top tier decks. Each of those regions show up in about 50% of the best decks, and there's at least one of those two regions in about 85% of top tier decks on the site:

    • Shadow Assassin - should probably be a 1/2 (maybe a 2/1 since 1 damage removal is available in several regions). Comparing to Vanguard Redeemer, today it trades 1/1 in stats for Elusive (which seems more than fair) and gets its card draw entirely condition free. The card is just way too good.
    • Kinkou Lifeblade - Still a problem despite the health drop because buffs are plentiful and Elusive aggro decks love the lifesteal to reduce the need to block. It feels like the intended purpose of this card is to help control decks stabilize against Elusive aggro decks, so maybe it should be a 1/3 whose attack increases on defense, or a 2/4 with "can't attack" or something like that.
    • Mark of the Isles - A little to strong a buff for 1 mana, maybe reduce it to a +2|+2
    • Glimpse Beyond - This is a tough one. As a fast spell, it seems generally unfair that you get to play it at the last minute to make opposing removal tools irrelevant and draw 2 cards - that's a pretty big card advantage swing since your opponent is now out one or more removal cards and your unit sacrifice didn't really cost you anything you wouldn't lose anyway. But if it were slow, you'd never play it because any fast removal would negate it. So perhaps what it needs to be is a Burst spell with the text "You cannot cast this if other spells are on the stack." or "You cannot cast this if your opponent has unresolved spells." or something like that. It will always go off, but you have to actually make a sacrifice to get the card draw.
    • The Rekindler - The biggest problem here is that this is frequently "vanilla stats with a champion," and scales up to "oppressive amount of stats for cheap" as the game goes on and you play your more powerful champion cards. There are a lot of ways you could nerf this. Some ideas: change the text to "strongest ally" to make it harder to get free champions, drive the cost up to 7 or 8 to make its cost more appropriate for the immediate stats on board that you get, drive its stats down to a 3/3 or a 2/2 to make it far less meaningful a unit, etc.

  • Elusives need to f**** off and die. Literally add "can't block" to half of them and nerf the rest.

    If they don't manage to actually get them into a spot where they can't just stack buffs ona single unit and win because not every region has Vengeance then the game is basically ruined.

    Also nerf all permanent buffs, especially the health ones. Direct damage is such a rarity in this game and it's way too easy to just stack buffs on a single unit and have it win the game with no counterplay (Stand Alone is the worst offender here)

  • Karma - I don't think she is overpowered and i can see why her doubling spell doesn't disappear if she dies before spell triggers but well, this is not so healthy in my opinion and it is not just for an archetype.

    The problem with trying to change this is that the spell is already on the stack, even if she dies. If her effect was simply that the spell triggers twice, that would be one thing, but she casts it twice, so it ends up on the stack and I think it would be less intuitive if these spells were somehow removed in a way no other spell can be removed from the stack.

    I don't think that they will be weak with this change. Ephemeral units are always higher stats for their costs, Shadow Fiend 1-mana 4/3 , Shark Chariot 2-mana 3/1 and comes back everytime, Haunted Relic 2-mana 3/3 , Darkwater Scourge 3-mana 5/5, Onslaught of Shadows 3-mana 6/4, Hecarim 6-mana 10/10, Mark of the Isles 1-mana +3/+3.

    Ok they won't leave bodies on the field but changing the rule is better than nerfing all ephemeral units in my opinion. It already punishes you to spend your resources to temporary units. This change will answer most of the broken situations about them, Hecarim/Mark of the Isles/Darkwater Scourge/Death Mark etc. instead of nerfing all of these cards seperately.

    Yes, they're generally overstated units, but if they die to any damage source (i.e. can be killed before combat by taking any damage at all), then anyone playing Ephemeral units gets both the punishment of buying temporary units (as you said) and a new extra punishment of often losing those units to extremely cheap removal tools before they could eke any value out of those temporary attackers. This change would certainly answer the most broken Ephemeral problems in the game, but it does it by nerfing Ephemeral into the ground and making it largely unplayable as a strategy.

    This change makes elusive units more attack-oriented like how they are used right now. Unbuffed elusives are not an issue already. This change makes players more attentive when they should attack and prevents the game being braindead face game

    This just seems like another nerf into the ground. If you lose Elusive when you attack, then your units are bad for most of the time you have them (that is, you've traded one guaranteed nexus strike for a relatively weak unit). You seem to think this would make players more thoughtful with their attacks (e.g. I build up a board of Elusive units before attacking), but really that would mean you have two choices - build a board while doing nothing else for a while, or attack with one unit every other turn and be stuck with weak non-Elusive units afterwards. The former gets beaten down by any other aggro deck, and the latter never builds up enough pressure on board to win against midrange or control. It's lose lose.

    Speeding up/Slowing down might bring some other issues. I really don't get it why it is so hard and confusing to understand this. A single-use buff should be single-use. That's so simple. +2 health buff for a round should stay for one round. Shouldn't heal the unit. It doesn't make the unit die suddenly after the turn ends because it will go back to its previous health once the turn ends.

    The issue comes up when your buff exceeds the remaining HP of the unit. Let's say I've played a +3|+3 buff on an injured 3/1 unit, made a trade, and now my unit is a 6/2. Does removing the buff kill my unit because -3|-3 would leave it at 3/-1? Does removing the buff only do -3|-1 so that my unit returns to its earlier 3/1 state? If it's the former, a lot of buffs will seem kind of pointless because you're frequently getting a 1-for-2 trade out of your units (i.e. you lose a unit and a buff to make a trade). If it's the latter, then the debuff is going to be no more inconsistent than it is now in terms of how many stats are dropped off.

    It was a flavour related suggestion at first tbh. and then i figured that might help for some other broken interactions with Relentless Pursuit and random Shadowshifts/Prismatic Barriers from Karma while you don't have any Lux or Zed in your deck.

    …

    Contrarily to you, I really think that this opens more deckbuilding opportunities rather than limiting it. If you want to use Death Lotus in your Vladimir deck, You should try a Katarina/Vladimir deck instead of throwing 2x Death Lotus without a Katarina in your deck for example.

    This feels and seems openning more opportunities for deckbuilding for me. Also seems more logical for that The singature spells are cast by those champions.

    I get it from a flavor standpoint, but by the very nature of what your'e suggesting, it's going to limit deckbuilding options. Take your example: if you want to use Death Lotus and Vladimir today, you have several options:

    Your version removes one of those three options, and notably it removes the one that helps most with deck diversity because of the rules around Champion inclusions in a deck. In your version, if a particular signature spells is massively OP in a given archetype, then that Champion will be an auto-include even if you'd like to try to build that deck with a different Champion or set of Champions.