Hearthstone is not prepared for Demon Hunter

It's just isn't the power level of the class is off the charts even the last expansion dragon hunter got 0 chance against midrange demon hunter it's too good dunno what blizzard was thinking when they put all those insane cards in one class...

I played it for a bit it feels unstoppable even when skipping turns for being greedy with outcast, I think we will see it nerfed this week it's really not ok to be that strong I tried some other decks as well they didn't compare to DH in the slightliest..

hit list? the 4/2 for 3 that summons 2/2s , the 10/6 dormant demon that destroys the board and is too insane, the 6/7 rag lady that CAN attack as well..

the [Hearthstone Card (skull of guldan) Not Found], rogue needs to invoke galakround 3 times AND pay 7 mana to get the same effect but DH? just have the card in the left or right of your hand lol.

I mean.. yes you can push the class but those cards are nowhere near fair to other classes.. looking forward to playing the other classes when DH gets nerfed until then.. getting to legend with midrange DH.

seeing people playing token DH or big DH or anything but midrange or highlander is just a mistake play the cards that are busted.

Edit: twin slice is OP AF

I'm just kinda chilling with Plot Twist Warlock...turns out running lots of removal and healthgain is the only way to have a chance....also Sacrificial Pact is pretty damn op.

But yeha, we knew this was gonna happen, the class is blatantly overpowered and we'll probably see hotfixes within the two weeks (maybe even the first).

So far Skull of gul'dan is just absurd, Priestess of Fury is just a bit too cheap, Imprisoned Antean kind of busted, but I get the feeling it's because of all the other cards that you don't really suffer from the tempo penalty.

Also their 1-drop are just kind of retardedly strong. Who thougt Battlefiend was a good idea? It's like they learned nothing from the Gadgetzan Pirates.

Altruis also seems kind of nutty with the face damage...maybe they should scrap that part.

But yeah, no tempo deck beats this unless you get a perfect start and they don't. Was trying some Beast Hunter shenanigans and...oh boy, you think you're in a good spot and they just drop that Skull on 5 and next turn shit out like 20/20 worth of stats and I'm just like "what exactly am I supposed to do here"

Quest Druid doesn't really seem to work for similar reason. it's like you're playing against a better version of yourself that also wins the early game.

Honestly it's not even the reload and lategame bombs that bother me, it's the ridiculously consistent early game. You can't actuallly get to a spot where you can prepare to deal with their later turns, you just always play on the defensive and they never stop.

Yeah... main reason I haven't played any standard yet. I like tempo decks and all but, much like early Galakrond shaman, current demon hunter seems a little overtuned.

If some decent counter decks show up I might give those a go. Until then I'll stick with wild where I actually met my first demon hunter just now. Guy was trying an OTK with double Galvanizer + Metamorphosis into double Clockwork Automaton + Garrison Commander for 2x 20 damage the next turn. Respect to that guy, shame I had Ice Block up and Reno Jackson in hand. Even with just these few released class cards the deck cycles like crazy already.

Well I must be getting lucky. I'm currently 3-1 against Demon Hunters with my Highlander Priest at the moment. 

Quote From Snapshot426

Well I must be getting lucky. I'm currently 3-1 against Demon Hunters with my Highlander Priest at the moment. 

I too have been lucky beating DHs so far by throwing books and that one legendary murloc at them. But, yeah if they  have any early cards they pretty much win

To be fair, I don't find them that OP personally. I've been playing with Whizbang in Wild (Standard power level), but they never felt that much stronger than any typical aggro/tempo deck. I've managed to win multiple times. Yes, they do have broken cards, and if they get to play them on curve, then they're very likely to win, but that's nothing new. Embiggen Druid/Pirate Warrior/Murloc Shaman/Zoo Warlock - they are the same. They all have OP cards that increase their winrate by tens of percents when played at the right time.

I do not think they'll be dominating the ladder for a long time, they won't be Tier 0 decks. Face Hunter also seemed really strong at the beginning of DoD, but the metagame adapted. Decks will start picking up anti-aggro measures. The class has clear weaknesses, such as single-target removal. For example, Overconfident Orc counters Command the Illidari well and DH has a hard time getting around it without bashing with face. You can get healed by Khartut. Just throwing around some ideas. The absence of Classic and Year of the Dragon cards are really showing and the class is somewhat of a one-trick pony.

No doubt, the class is strong. It will be a meta deck because of Skull of Gul'dan only. We'll very likely see some nerfs down the line. But it isn't untechable.

DH can build a variety of Pure Class Cards decks at their first expansion.

Not even Wild can do that.

Anyway, I'm sure the meta will catch up soon in some way, although some nerfs might happen on DH in the not so far future.

I think this image summarizes the current situation and the upcoming meta pretty well.

(Sorry for ant size)

Pure paladin would like a word with you. With the Librams, it actually feels alright. It says a lot for Paladin in Year of the Raven that we're one set in and it feels like they have a more clear class identity.

I actually made a C'thun Demon Hunter in wild (because I figured with all the insane draw DH has would make it consistent) and it was actually pretty good, which I think shows the powerlevel of the class

1-0 wild vs. an Odd-using Demon Hunter. Grants them +2 damage on hero power btw. I was using Highlander anti-OTK mage.

Once Frost Lich Jaina and the elementals started spawning, it was over. And summoning more 1-1s isn't smart against FLJ.

Illidan can silence taunts, but he can't do anything frozen. That new 8-mana freeze spell spawning two water elementals was made with Demon Hunter in mind, I think.

Spell mage does really well against them actually 

Too early to make a determination. They in no way feel like Galakrond Shaman. 

In fact I've yet to lose against them playing as Face Hunter. 

The meta will adjust.  We just lost a year’s worth of cards so players haven’t quite figured out best decks/strategies yet.

Early on I went 5-1 with a DH recipe deck and no changes.  Then I suddenly started seeing a lot more Rez Priest and other control decks.  Became very difficult.  Although I’m sure a few tweaks are all it needs.  Was playing the big boys list.

I feel like DH having so few class cards in comparison, being the new class, it probably has been finely tuned to ensure it doesn’t suck.  That would be awful if they were like “NEW CLASS!” and it was just meh!  But I also think we need to give the community time to react and find ways to beat DH before we pass judgement on nerfs that are needed.

The Otk variant is.... annoying? I'm beating it well enough, with an absolute joke of a homebrew meme deck, but I can imagine it could be bad in the hands of a decent player.

The damage after turn card and 10-damage on wake up minion do need to be greatly reduced.

Also, wasn't demon hunters identity weakness supposed to be card draw? Seems like they got a lot.

/can't let priest get card draw or face damage, though, that's the class identity

Quote From CursedParrot

I actually made a C'thun Demon Hunter in wild (because I figured with all the insane draw DH has would make it consistent) and it was actually pretty good, which I think shows the powerlevel of the class

Interesting, how does the combo work

IIRC, Demon Hunters were meant to be weak on card generation, but strong on draw. Theoretically, classes with healing/Armor should just laugh them off. I think it's the Kael'thas combo that's the problem atm.

Well well, turns out that dhunters are as broken as I once thought.

But that's not to say there's no counter to it. I'm been playing around with priest builds and it has not been a total 100% disaster.

The supreme problem with dhunters in general is not that its impossible to beat, but because it takes only a very specific deck to defeat them. Forget about anything even resembling an aggro or midrange deck that isnt dhunters as the other deck start with a tremendous disadvantage in the early game, let alone the mid game. And you can't starve dhunters out of resources in the same way most aggro decks suffer from, they just draw too fast and too efficiently.

So you end up with a game thats dominated by midrange dhunters, and absurd counters in the form of control decks like res priest, control shaman, and control warrior. What about the others? I don't know. In particular, what is hunter going to do in standard against a dhunter class? Run double unleash and double explosive trap? Chances are they just draw more cards and reload, something hunters cant match up to. That should be good enough a signal on the situation.

I'd expect some nerfs at some point, aiming at Skull of Gul'dan, Eye Beam, and Priestess of Fury. But hitting skull hard is perhaps good enough. The reload is absolutely absurd, and it does very well with Questing Adventurer to a frankly insane degree.

EDIT - I know its day 1. But c'mon. 75% win rate. Maybe a tiny indication? Only the tiniest, I assure you.

Quote From ShotgunSoul

The damage after turn card and 10-damage on wake up minion do need to be greatly reduced.

Also, wasn't demon hunters identity weakness supposed to be card draw? Seems like they got a lot.

/can't let priest get card draw or face damage, though, that's the class identity

card draw is not their weakness, its card generation

Quote From Xarkkal

Too early to make a determination. They in no way feel like Galakrond Shaman. 

In fact I've yet to lose against them playing as Face Hunter. 

https://hsreplay.net/decks/#playerClasses=DEMONHUNTER&gameType=RANKED_STANDARD&sortBy=winrate

it's worse

72% win rate decks I think galakround shaman was about 65%.. don't remember you see the front page DH 55% global WR vs all other classes sub 50%

I think it is still a bit too early to say anything definite, it could be that 90% of the playerbase is playing Demon Hunters to it has a high win rate, but I do think they may be a bit too efficient.

I was playing Warlock and I had answers all through the early turns with Sacrificial Pact, Nether Breath, Dark Skies etc. I was doing pretty well and thought that because my deck was geared towards the late game I should be able to win at this point, but he still had like 8 cards in his hand. He never ran out of steam and continued to throw out more stuff than I could handle and eventually won.

The main issue with Demon Hunters is their ability to maintain a healthy hand size and also a threatening board state all throughout the game until fatigue take them.

Quote From KANSAS

The main issue with Demon Hunters is their ability to maintain a healthy hand size and also a threatening board state all throughout the game until fatigue take them.

I think the correct term for this is 'lacking any serious weaknesses'.

You either race them, or have enough AoE and taunts to last all 10 turns, because that's all it takes for them to draw their entire deck.

I have no regrets crafting Kayn Sunfury because that card is 100% getting nerfed. My opponent had a weapon, no board, and did 15 to my face, bypassing three taunts. It just seems to violate the rule of interactivity, far worse than even something like the original Patches. He was aided by mana discounts from Skull of Guldan - another card that seems OP. It's not that difficult to be patient on Outcast in general let alone for a control card. Nerf Kayn to 6-mana and nerf Skull of Guldan's Outcast to a 2-mana discount per card (which is still great!).

The pinging cards also seem over-statted, but I haven't played with/against them enough yet to have a suggestion.

I feel the same. This should be a fun time playing with lots of different decks but you cant even get started against DH. I found myself playing Battlegrounds in the end last night and that's just sad, playing BGs on launch night because standard was that un-fun. Thanks Team 5...

I do feel that the 10 damage demon & the mini Rag demon are a bit overtuned. Played against the deck for the first time in wild and felt I was always playing catch-up even when playing a warrior deck of mine with tons of armor and removal. Can't fathom what standard is like going against DH. Could easily reduce the 10 damage effect to 7 or 8 and the shivara's damage down by 1 or 2 as well.

Just watched Kripp get bored on Twitch; he was reading off stats. He faced 90% demon hunters and the class was according to meta statistics, with a 70-ish percent win rate, pushing every other class below 50 percent (Hunter was No. 2 with 49%).

He did have a nice streak using rez priest.

Have to say this might be in the running with Descent of Dragons and Rastakhan's Rumble as the worst launch day I can remember.

Hang on to those duplicates, boys. Time to cash in when Demon Hunter gets nuked.

I’ve got a Golden Skull of Gul'dan that’s going to get hit for sure. 

we're missing the point that DH is easily the most played class, where everybody has pratically all the cards for it and they all synergize very well while other classes after getting the revamp hammer due to new year rotation they are on the adapting period so the decks aren't crystal clear while DH is basically already optimized

Quote From Marega

we're missing the point that DH is easily the most played class, where everybody has pratically all the cards for it and they all synergize very well while other classes after getting the revamp hammer due to new year rotation they are on the adapting period so the decks aren't crystal clear while DH is basically already optimized

^ This. There are like two viable decks you can run on DH, and it’s crystal clear how they should be assembled. Meanwhile, Rogues are out there remembering how to use Secrets again. 

I started running Big Demon DH after hitting a wall on my main, and ended up feasting on the sudden influx of other DHs running the Aggro stuff. It is admittedly a little unbalanced when you can not play a single card until Turn 6 and still wipe the floor with your opponent. Oh wait, Rez Priest..

Demon Hunter is insanely good as expected, it feels like the class has everything at its disposal already. Card draw (Skull of Gul'dan is amazing), healing, burst damage, spells that could finish off your opponent, etc. The midgame burst of Imprisoned Antaen on Turn 5 to Priestess of Fury on turn 7 is downright devastating.

I crafted Kayn Sunfury ASAP because I'm gonna spam this class until the inevitable nerfs hit. I'm expecting nerfs to Priestess of Fury (8 mana?) and Skull of Gul'dan (up to 6 or 7 mana). 

Quote From shaveyou

Pure paladin would like a word with you. With the Librams, it actually feels alright. It says a lot for Paladin in Year of the Raven that we're one set in and it feels like they have a more clear class identity.

Pure Paladin is just one deck, with minor variations, Pure DH is a series of archetypes from Aggro to Midrange.

And Pure Paladin is not necessarily the best option for Paladin, while it probably is for DH.

All that while DH has a smaller card pool, as well as no card with an apparent Pure synergy: it's Pure coincidence of power.

Not saying DH is broken (yet), possibly just slightly overtuned in some cards, but the above is a sign of its power.

Jesus christ, I actually just played them for the first time, it's absurd.

I mean I played S-tier decks before, but this is...absurd. You can basically do whatever you want and it works. They have access to premium cards for just about every mana slot, meaning you can just fill your deck with cards that basically push you ahead every single turn.

Hell, I get why Firebat ran highlander, I'm not even able to put all the insane cards in the same deck

And then ofc there'S the combo version, which iis actually Kael'thas fault and that guy needs a rework more than anything

This is way worse than Galakrond Shaman was. Also, bonus points for ruining Arena, where basically every DH class card is either good or broken. I am sticking to Wild and BG untill DH gets nuked with nerfs. 

And everyone who says "this first day blah blah blah", "meta will adapt blah blah blah",  "got to salt thread blah blah blah" will either play DH or apologize for being mistkaen soon enough. I heard it all last time when Gala Shaman arrived with full power. Good luck with having fun, just like then. 

Well, on HS Replay net the decks sorted by winrate.... https://hsreplay.net/decks/#sortBy=winrate

On the first page are ONLY Demon Hunter decks. 

First non DH decks is in the middle of the second page. 

This is insane. I kept all cards I opened to get full dust value for them after the much needed nerfs.

EDIT: Also, for those who says that the high winrate is because everyone is playing DH: if a DH meets DH, one wins and one loses, so winrate in the same class is always 50%.

Quote From anchorm4n

Hearthstone not being prepared includes bugs. I tried Odd Demon Hunter in wild and when the last game started, Baku didn't upgrade my hero power. The two games before that it worked fine. Didn't change anything in between, checked for even cards afterward. No idea what happened.

https://outof.cards/hearthstone/decks/14160-odd-dh-73-winrate-to-legend

Quote From WillowMelody

So I noticed something weird the first game I played Odd DH. If you start the game with an Eye Beam with Outcast active in your hand, Baku doesn't trigger.

Was that the case for you?

Ok. I played alot of games today. I only play one class (shaman), because I had alot of fun with it the last 2-3 years. Shaman had its time I know. And yes, Galakrond Shaman was broken as hell, but what I saw today from Demon Hunter is, that you can get him very good under control. But this class doesn't care in the end. 5 Mana refill AND in the same turn he plays a bunch of cheap minions. You have a board? Meet my Priestess of Fury. Aaah dude, you got Taunts? Here Kayn Sunfury AAAND FACE. Dude why you don't heal? Oh right my HP does 5 damage for 1 Mana and i got my 8 DMG into your face spell in the hand.

I don't know how other classes work against Demon Hunter, but as a shaman you have like 0 chances to win this. I won a game against Demon Hunter. He didn't play Skull of Gul'dan, Metamorphosis or Priestess of Fury. Yeah pls nerf these 3 cards. Or just 2 of them. I will play wild till DH got nerfed into the ground.

I mean I was expecting DH to be the strongest class, but this is actually way beyond OP. The class basically has no weaknesses, it's essentially the ultimate midrange class thaat races aggro, outvalues tempo and outbursts control, and it even gets one of the most consistent OTKs in the game.

Honestly they might need to hotfix this within the next few days or else players will just jump ship. I have absolutely no intention of actually playing anything more then my daily quests until that happens, because if you pick literally any class that's not DH you're palying a bad matchup and that's ridiculous.

Also, can we talk about how DH's weaknesses are practicallly non existant? Card generation literally doesn't matter when you can draw through your entire deck with ease. That's like saying Warrior's weakness is healing when they have armor. Secondly, the only actual weakness, being big minions is completely thrown out of the window because Kayn, Maiev and silence....not to mention Zephrys.

The class is quite simply way too good at everything and what really bugs me is that while every other class keeps getting poorly thought out support for whacky archetypes, FOR SOME REASON they absolutely nailed DH on the first try with sufficient powerlevel on pretty much every card. How does that even happen?

Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

The class is quite simply way too good at everything and what really bugs me is that while every other class keeps getting poorly thought out support for whacky archetypes, FOR SOME REASON they absolutely nailed DH on the first try with sufficient powerlevel on pretty much every card. How does that even happen?

I mean, when stuff like Totemic Reflection gets printed, does it really surprise anyone? Shaman's cards are actually not too bad, except that there's no decent 0 cost spells to, you know, synergize with the stuff printed.

Whereas on dhunters, its just pure tempo plays. Nothing looks conditional. Seems like every card can be played on its own.

But to end on a positive note, I have been doing well with priest and warlock. Handlock in particular is good. Only a matter of time before we start seeing Consume Magic and Big Game Hunters inside dhunters because they absolutely cannot deal with Twilight Drakes and Magtheridon.

About the other classes though, well, its not been great. The curve game from dhunters is absolutely brutal to anything without a board clear

The complaints about Priestess of Fury seem like overreactions to me. She's great at killing boards full of tiny stuff, but is wildly inconsistent when your opponent has one or two bigger minions.

Honestly, Demon Hunter is probably closer to balanced than people here seem to think.

• All of its early game minions and many of its midgame minions have aggressive statlines, so they're very vulnerable to board wipes.
• For as much card draw as Demon Hunter has, its ability to flood the board is limited, so AoE can be pretty devastating to them.
• Their options for burst require assembling combos, or is dealt to random enemies (or both in the case of Wrathscale Naga)
• Apart from the crazy Kael'thas Sunstrider Combo Demon Hunter, the class has just about no great way to deal with even just a few medium to large minions (other than to punch through them)

So in theory you can start to see how a control deck easily beats most Demon Hunters by wiping the early minions, dropping a few bigger threats, and then just managing the board and healing into the late game. The big caveat to all of this is Imprisoned Antaen. Against aggro decks his randomly spread 10 damage often kills the board and hits face, and against control decks he's a massive punishment for playing AoE because he's dormant at the critical points of the game when the AoE would come down to swing the game. (I've played midrange mirrors where his damage was spread across enough bodies that he wasn't impactful, but the "don't beat em, join em" win isn't really what we want to see as a counter.)

With that in mind, I think that even a modest nerf to Imprisoned Antaen could be enough to make Warlock and Priest good control counters to Demon Hunter. Both have meaningful board wipes at several key points on the mana curve, and both have decent healing for the matchup (Warlock in the form of Sacrificial Pact and Nether Breath, and Priest in the form of its entire class identity...).

I've been playing around with a Wild Odd DH deck I made and it is ridiculous.  Odd Pally and Odd Rogue don't have this ability to go off like DH does.  What I am curious about is why Blizzard decided to make the Hero Power 1.  This completely negates the desire to try and run an Even deck.  I'm wondering why they didn't go with a Hero Power that mimed Hunter's.  The draw back of course is that the player takes the damage to the face when attacking minions. But realistically, why did they choose to make the power cost only 1?  

To me, that is the most abusable aspect of the class, followed very closely by Skull of Gul'dan

Quote From meisterz39

The complaints about Priestess of Fury seem like overreactions to me. She's great at killing boards full of tiny stuff, but is wildly inconsistent when your opponent has one or two bigger minions.

Honestly, Demon Hunter is probably closer to balanced than people here seem to think.

• All of its early game minions and many of its midgame minions have aggressive statlines, so they're very vulnerable to board wipes.
• For as much card draw as Demon Hunter has, its ability to flood the board is limited, so AoE can be pretty devastating to them.
• Their options for burst require assembling combos, or is dealt to random enemies (or both in the case of Wrathscale Naga)
• Apart from the crazy Kael'thas Sunstrider Combo Demon Hunter, the class has just about no great way to deal with even just a few medium to large minions (other than to punch through them)

So in theory you can start to see how a control deck easily beats most Demon Hunters by wiping the early minions, dropping a few bigger threats, and then just managing the board and healing into the late game. The big caveat to all of this is Imprisoned Antaen. Against aggro decks his randomly spread 10 damage often kills the board and hits face, and against control decks he's a massive punishment for playing AoE because he's dormant at the critical points of the game when the AoE would come down to swing the game. (I've played midrange mirrors where his damage was spread across enough bodies that he wasn't impactful, but the "don't beat em, join em" win isn't really what we want to see as a counter.)

With that in mind, I think that even a modest nerf to Imprisoned Antaen could be enough to make Warlock and Priest good control counters to Demon Hunter. Both have meaningful board wipes at several key points on the mana curve, and both have decent healing for the matchup (Warlock in the form of Sacrificial Pact and Nether Breath, and Priest in the form of its entire class identity...).

Let's have an argument;

- Your argument of a weakness to big minions is apt. They do have a weakness to them, except they do have some answers to them. Most of their minions have aggressive stat lines. So if you happen to be in a class without board clears, your big minions will likely just die to the board. In a pinch there is cards like Illidari Felblade and the completely insane Eye Beam. And when push comes to shove, they can clear it with their face, which isnt so much a problem since they can heal, like a lot. I've been playing control galakrond, with 2x Abyssal Summoner and 2x Twilight Drakes. He cleared all of them, and an Alexstrasza, no problem.

- Board flooding is what they do, at least unintentionally. Draws are so good, with Skull of Gul'dan for reload. I cleared three boards before I saw a big minion from them, simply because they draw very well. AoE is devastating, except not all classes can do an AoE, hence why hunters cant do anything to them. And unlike token decks, they dont need cards like Savage Roar to be effective.

- This one should be a no brainer. Not every class can clear a 10/6 that destroys your board and a 6/7 that snowballs when not removed.

- Oh and as a bonus, I was drawing like any decent handlock would. And when I did beat them they were ahead of me on cards. That, my friend, is not normal. Especially when dhunters maintaining full tempo while doing so.

I don't think dhunters are invincible, but just really really unfair, so beating them requires very specific builds that usually sucks against other decks. So we have control decks about, with the odd highlander every now and then, all to counter dhunters, and they still manages a 60% and above win rate on most of their decks.

Finally, let's also point out that hsreplay shows dhunters about 16% above the lowest win rate class. Its around 9% above second place hunter. It might be an overreaction. But then again, maybe it isnt, and dhunters are as broken as it appears.

I'd like to add my subjective experience last night with Feno's big druid deck HERE

There are a ton of taunts in this deck with some having reborn or deathrattle effects. You can setup a Great Wall of China and somehow they break through.

The argument about big minions is only partially correct. They still rip the big guys apart - 6 hits of non-contact dmg is a ton that can be followed up with 6 on the following turn with a constant 6 end of turn effect from the Priestess of Fury. What dapperdog said is spot on. I had taunt after taunt after taunt and they kept coming down. 

I will say that I beat the 3 DH that I faced but they were all so close and at no point did I feel in control til lethal. 

In Wild, Demon Hunter is not prepared. I'm playing a Handbuff Mech Paladin, trying to incorporate Replicat-o-tron, and running rampant over every DH I meet. 

Still a problem in standard though.

I think it is very obvious that DH in his current state is pretty broken. I am now playing Kolentos Pure Libra Pal and I beat them regularly.
Nevertheless, these stats up here don't lie. And the first nerfs will be incoming for sure quite soon. 

Quote From dapperdog

Let's have an argument;

Okay!

Quote From dapperdog

- Your argument of a weakness to big minions is apt. They do have a weakness to them, except they do have some answers to them. Most of their minions have aggressive stat lines. So if you happen to be in a class without board clears, your big minions will likely just die to the board. In a pinch there is cards like Illidari Felblade and the completely insane Eye Beam. And when push comes to shove, they can clear it with their face, which isnt so much a problem since they can heal, like a lot. I've been playing control galakrond, with 2x Abyssal Summoner and 2x Twilight Drakes. He cleared all of them, and an Alexstrasza, no problem.

I don't know which specific DH deck you're referring to when you mention clearing all of your large minions. The Kael'thas Combo version is capable of dealing with big minions in the late game and is incentivized to trade in the mid game, but the others are remarkably bad at dealing with medium to large minions and/or taunts with reborn. And if they're not the OTK combo version, the tempo cost to getting through those minions is expensive for Demon Hunter.

Quote From dapperdog

- Board flooding is what they do, at least unintentionally. Draws are so good, with Skull of Gul'dan for reload. I cleared three boards before I saw a big minion from them, simply because they draw very well. AoE is devastating, except not all classes can do an AoE, hence why hunters cant do anything to them. And unlike token decks, they dont need cards like Savage Roar to be effective.

I think the key point here is "unintentionally." The decks were seeing have lots of cheap, weak minions and lots of card draw. So, inevitably they'll be good at putting a lot of early pressure on with a board flood. But they're not a "board flood" class the way that Paladin or Druid is - they have very limited ways to generate large swarms of minions, they can't buff their swarms, and they lack any useful ways to stick their swarm to the board between turns (e.g. Never Surrender! or Soul of the Forest). 

In this way, they're much weaker at swarming, and certainly much weaker at reloading a swarm once you've killed their early pressure. So, where a traditional aggro deck might be able to keep pressure up between turns to provide consistent pressure turn over turn, Demon Hunter swarms are basically thrown out at the end of the turn.

Quote From dapperdog

- This one should be a no brainer. Not every class can clear a 10/6 that destroys your board and a 6/7 that snowballs when not removed.

This is the second point you've made on the basis of "not every class can do that." The fact is, not every class has to. A metagame is built on the kinds of rock-paper-scissors relationships that different classes have as a result of their specific strengths and weaknesses. We only need a couple decent control decks to keep Demon Hunter in check, and then some other class can come in and prey on those control decks.

Now, even when you're playing the paper to Demon Hunter's scissors in that set up, you'll want to have access to some ways to try and mitigate those losses. Waste Warden and Doomsayer are probably decent AoE tools for a class that lacks it's own AoE and needs to clean up a board of small demons, and Big Game Hunter is around for clearing those pesky large minions. And if you're struggling against the combo version or their powerful outcast cards, run Unseen Saboteur. This is fundamentally what these various tech cards are for - to shore up your class weaknesses against the metagame.

Quote From dapperdog

- Oh and as a bonus, I was drawing like any decent handlock would. And when I did beat them they were ahead of me on cards. That, my friend, is not normal. Especially when dhunters maintaining full tempo while doing so.

I don't know about "not normal," but it's certainly new. Demon Hunter is brilliant at burning hot - drawing tons of cards, playing tons of cards, but they also run out of stuff when they do that. Today they're not super punished for doing that, but I think it's only a matter of time before that changes.

Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

 

And then ofc there'S the combo version, which iis actually Kael'thas fault and that guy needs a rework more than anything

Kael'thas enabling Illidan

That's pretty funny actually 

Quote From shaveyou

In Wild, Demon Hunter is not prepared. I'm playing a Handbuff Mech Paladin, trying to incorporate Replicat-o-tron, and running rampant over every DH I meet. 

Still a problem in standard though.

Unless they include the 1 mana cantrip silenc

Quote From Alfi

Quote From shaveyou

In Wild, Demon Hunter is not prepared. I'm playing a Handbuff Mech Paladin, trying to incorporate Replicat-o-tron, and running rampant over every DH I meet. 

Still a problem in standard though.

Unless they include the 1 mana cantrip silenc

I've run into a few running it. Weirdly enough, adding Replicat-o-tron weakens the effect of silence somewhat, because they are only able to silence one, which is immediately turned back at the end of the next turn. I do feel the silence cantrip is too strong though

I tried to make counter decks to Demon Hunter today using anti-Aggro control or just minion spam decks; Big Taunt Druid, Control Warrior, Resurrect Priest, (Galakrond Zoo) Warlock, Beast Hunter. And all of them are wildly inconsistent. Demon Hunter is just good at everything, it has amazing draw power, removal, heal, and reach (OTK even), it's impossible to counter. Out of all the decks I tried today, Pure Paladin felt to most decent, and that was only when my draws were above average. How did the new class get released, despite being obviously overpowered :/

Demon Warlock counters it.

Ironic...

Quote From Marega

Demon Warlock counters it.

Ironic...

Also defensive Demon Hunter beats the Aggro version, with all those strong Demons, AoE and Lifesteal Sen'jin Shieldmasta etc.

Seems nerfs are already coming lol

https://twitter.com/IksarHS/status/1247984539504238592

Quote From DelkoHS

Seems nerfs are already coming lol

https://twitter.com/IksarHS/status/1247984539504238592

 

Praise Yogg! 

Since they're looking at the below per Ayala, what does everyone think the nerfs will look like?

Skull of Gul'dan - My guess is rather than hit cost, they'll lower the discount on Outcast to 2. Though honestly even if they lowered it to 1 it would still be run in every single DH deck

Imprisoned Antaen - this one is tricky. Best option would be to lower the dmg when it wakes up to maybe 6 or 7. Alternatively they should cut the attack to 6 so that it's main value is the burst and not ALSO have a giant minion on the board. Again like the Skull, they could do both of those things and the card would still be very playable in virtually any deck.

Eye Beam - Either drop it to 2 dmg or lower (raise?) the Outcast discount to 1 mana

Aldrachi Warblades - will probably cut the durability to 2

Quote From meisterz39

 

Quote From dapperdog

- This one should be a no brainer. Not every class can clear a 10/6 that destroys your board and a 6/7 that snowballs when not removed.

 

This is the second point you've made on the basis of "not every class can do that." The fact is, not every class has to. A metagame is built on the kinds of rock-paper-scissors relationships that different classes have as a result of their specific strengths and weaknesses. We only need a couple decent control decks to keep Demon Hunter in check, and then some other class can come in and prey on those control decks.

Now, even when you're playing the paper to Demon Hunter's scissors in that set up, you'll want to have access to some ways to try and mitigate those losses. Waste Warden and Doomsayer are probably decent AoE tools for a class that lacks it's own AoE and needs to clean up a board of small demons, and Big Game Hunter is around for clearing those pesky large minions. And if you're struggling against the combo version or their powerful outcast cards, run Unseen Saboteur. This is fundamentally what these various tech cards are for - to shore up your class weaknesses against the metagame.

I can accept some of the arguments you're making but let's expand on this one in particular. I reiterate my opinion that every class has to have the tools to deal with the specifics of other classes. That's what we call as a balanced and healthy meta. If Galakrond rogue and highlander mage in the previous meta has absurdly good late games, then classes aiming to match them should target their weakness which is lack of healing and poor early game. Dragon and embiggen decks can be countered with Dragonmaw Poacher, etc.

Against dhunters, however, it is clear that they do have a weakness to board clears but because they reload just as quickly using cards like Skull of Gul'dan, their true weakness is board swings, i.e. clearing their board and developing minions, preferably big ones. We can assume that was the intention when Waste Warden was created, but its clear that their fantastic mid game supplements their early game so well that that weakness to board clear is suitably dealt with by playing big minions like Imprisoned Antaen and Priestess of Fury.

To put a case example, how is hunter supposed to deal with dhunters, like any archetype from dhunters? They can't target the early game, dhunters tempo tools outclasses their minions (0 mana Eye Beam, jesus) not to mention that dhunters have access to the best early minions in the game. They cant race them, dhunters heal too well. They certainly can't match up to dhunter's midgame minions of Imprisoned Antaen and Priestess of Fury. They can try combo, but because they cant draw that's inconsistent at best. They can buff their minions and go for dhunter's weakness to big minions, except this gets absolutely destroyed by an earlier board that they cannot deal with. So the best way to deal with this, is to not deal with it, which is why we're seeing face hunter being the best deck for the class currently according to hsreplay, performing abysmally against dhunters.

The class is ripe for nerfs, its only a matter of time. To close my side of the argument, dhunters are at the top of the hsreplay tier list, dominating tier 1 and taking off nearly half of all tier 2. They are the only class with over 50% win rate, and 20% more than the lowest class. They are too consistent in what they do, and their "weakness" cannot be exploited by all the classes. This was the main problem with the early galakrond shaman, and I expect team5 to deal with dhunters in the same way.

Quote From Marega

Demon Warlock counters it.

Ironic...

Not really.. theoretically sact pact is good against them but they don't actually run that many demons.