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Legends of Runeterra | Posted by | 5 years, 11 months ago
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Buff Vi.

She is almost useless. Even if you run three it is as if you only have one. The power you build up doesn't stay on the others and unless you have her in your opening hand she takes to long to power up. And even if she does level up there are normal none champion cards that could do her job but better with half the resources put into them.

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  • She is almost useless. Even if you run three it is as if you only have one. The power you build up doesn't stay on the others and unless you have her in your opening hand she takes to long to power up. And even if she does level up there are normal none champion cards that could do her job but better with half the resources put into them.

    • Quote From Vincent3383

      She is almost useless. Even if you run three it is as if you only have one. The power you build up doesn't stay on the others and unless you have her in your opening hand she takes to long to power up. And even if she does level up there are normal none champion cards that could do her job but better with half the resources put into them.

      I was pretty unimpressed with Vi too, but apparently she been a terror at the tournaments.

      https://dotesports.com/lor/news/demacia-vi-dominates-in-legends-of-runeterra-na-community-invitational

      It looks like she's performing extremely well splashed into bannerman and corina archetypes as support / alt win condition, rather than actively trying to level her.

      • Quote From OldManSanns
        Quote From Vincent3383

        She is almost useless. Even if you run three it is as if you only have one. The power you build up doesn't stay on the others and unless you have her in your opening hand she takes to long to power up. And even if she does level up there are normal none champion cards that could do her job but better with half the resources put into them.

        I was pretty unimpressed with Vi too, but apparently she been a terror at the tournaments.

        https://dotesports.com/lor/news/demacia-vi-dominates-in-legends-of-runeterra-na-community-invitational

        It looks like she's performing extremely well splashed into bannerman and corina archetypes as support / alt win condition, rather than actively trying to level her.

        Eh - that article says the competition was only eight players in NA. I know the LoR community isn't huge as of yet, but eight data points is pretty small, and of those, fewer than half were playing Vi. This continues to be my biggest frustrations about Legends of Runeterra - there is really nowhere to go right now to get meaningful deck statistics. Mobalytics has a tier list, but as it plainly says on the tier list page, their "deck archetypes are curated by...TCG Experts [EG Swim and Alanzq]."

        Setting the statistics aside, though, I agree that Vi is strong and probably fine as is. It's not hard to build a deck that can get her to 5/5 around the time you play her, and if you want to buff her early you can hard mulligan for her in your opening hand and have very good odds of getting her. Getting a Vanguard Cavalry with Challenger is already really strong. Add on top of that the fact that she will continue to get passive buffs regardless of what you play, and you can buff her with a variety of cards to get her to level despite not reaching +8|+0 naturally, and you have a very powerful Champion. She's not really built to be your main win condition, but that's clear from her Level 2 effect. She's built to pressure your opponent into making bad trades while still getting a little nexus damage in, not to smack your opponent in the face for 10 damage.

        • Quote From meisterz39

          Eh - that article says the competition was only eight players in NA. I know the LoR community isn't huge as of yet, but eight data points is pretty small, and of those, fewer than half were playing Vi.

          That is one way to look at it.  Another way would be to say: "8 of the best LoR players in North America participated in tournament each with what they thought was the single best deck, and out of the 35 champions available, those players picked Vi 3 times, Fiora twice, Karma twice, 8 other champions once, and 24 champions weren't picked at all."  I agree this data is limited and therefore any conclusions shouldn't be considered definitive, but at the least it should cast some strong doubt that out of all 35 champions Vi is the one most deserving of a buff right now.

          Here's the EU article; I didn't link it originally the title wasn't as splashy but 4 of the 8 EU players brought nearly-identical Heimer + Vi decks.

          https://dotesports.com/lor/news/lux-karma-beats-corina-control-in-legends-of-runeterra-eu-community-invitational

        • For what it's worth, if you watch Swim's Youtube channel on the meta tier list each week, you'll see that the way he arranges decks by tier level is highly data driven (he has access to Mobalytics statistics) including win rate, number of games played etc.

          • Quote From Lazerbeans

            For what it's worth, if you watch Swim's Youtube channel on the meta tier list each week, you'll see that the way he arranges decks by tier level is highly data driven (he has access to Mobalytics statistics) including win rate, number of games played etc.

            I'm not trying to impugn Swim's credibility here, I just think Mobalytics should build those lists based on data which is itself transparent, and their methodologies should be clearly explained on the page, rather than just leaving it up to one or two streamers to interpret the data however they see fit. I shouldn't have to go watch YouTube videos to figure out how these deck lists are being picked, especially when there may well be variance in similar lists for teching purposes.

            • Quote From meisterz39

              I'm not trying to impugn Swim's credibility here, I just think Mobalytics should build those lists based on data which is itself transparent, and their methodologies should be clearly explained on the page, rather than just leaving it up to one or two streamers to interpret the data however they see fit. I shouldn't have to go watch YouTube videos to figure out how these deck lists are being picked, especially when there may well be variance in similar lists for teching purposes.

              Fair point, I also wish that the Mobalytics data was transparent and readily available, like how HSreplay data is for HS.

  • I played her in Corina control and she was super good tool to stabilize against aggressive decks. She doesn't need that much attack, 5 is very easy to achieve and  often more than enough to remove any threat (with her challenger of course). Her health + tough makes her super hard to remove. There is no need to buff her, she is just not an aggro card.

    • Quote From Elendil

      I played her in Corina control and she was super good tool to stabilize against aggressive decks. She doesn't need that much attack, 5 is very easy to achieve and  often more than enough to remove any threat (with her challenger of course). Her health + tough makes her super hard to remove. There is no need to buff her, she is just not an aggro card.

      Exactly this. Much like Fiora she isn't meant to level up consistently. Both cards serve as fantastic anti aggro tools.

  • She has felt very strong in my games against her.

  • I think Vi is bad, but not in the way OP said it. Vi is among the champs who their level up is secondary to their baseline versions. This is bad  in my eyes, you should try to level up your champs all the time, that's one of the selling points of the game. Braum and Sejuani suffer from this as well. Their leveled up forms simply aren't worth the time and effort they require to achieve. Sure, no one will complain if Vi levels up and slowly punches the enemy nexus to death, but she's used as just a good challenger unit, not a real build around. Her whole package of drawing cards, spamming 2 cost stuff fell flat. They work better in Jinx decks! And that's the opposite of how it should be thematic wise.

    • Quote From BasilAnguis

      I think Vi is bad, but not in the way OP said it. Vi is among the champs who their level up is secondary to their baseline versions. This is bad  in my eyes, you should try to level up your champs all the time, that's one of the selling points of the game. Braum and Sejuani suffer from this as well. Their leveled up forms simply aren't worth the time and effort they require to achieve. Sure, no one will complain if Vi levels up and slowly punches the enemy nexus to death, but she's used as just a good challenger unit, not a real build around. Her whole package of drawing cards, spamming 2 cost stuff fell flat. They work better in Jinx decks! And that's the opposite of how it should be thematic wise.

      I partly agree with this, because I think levelling up a champion should something that feels rewarding, but I don't think Braum and Sejuani have the same problem as Vi regarding their level ups.

      Playing against a Braum, especially a buffed one, always forces you to keep his level up in mind, because he will create huge amounts of value once he reaches that point, and therefore his potential to level up is certainly impactful.

      Sejuani may be really hard to level, but she also gives a huge advantage if the player manages to do it, and thereby players are still encouraged to try to level her (or prevent it when playing against her).

      Vi's level up, on the other hand, isn't really in the form of "do X, then I do Y". She levels more gradually, but actually levelling her takes a lot of effort and the payoff just isn't really worth it (at least based on my experiences with her so far). Because of this and her base form already being strong enough, players are not encouraged enough to level her and instead play her as a very strong challenger unit.

      I think better comparisons to Vi are Draven, Vladimir, Shen, Tryndamere, and Heimerdinger, because they are all champions that you don't play more for their base form and not because you want to level them (Although Tryndamere is a bit of an odd one regarding his level up). Draven, like Vi, is just a very solid card on his own that you don't play with the purpose of levelling him. The main difference with Vi is that he is still quite a bit easier to level and his levelled form is also much more threatening compared to his base form. Vladimir is kind of the same in that he is played for his base form effect and his levelled form just gives him a good bonus effect. The same can be said for Shen, because he is mainly played for his unique support effect. Sadly I hardly ever see Shen being played so I can't say for sure whether his level up is rewarding enough for the amount of effort it requires, but I don't think it's encouraging enough to consistently try to level him. Tryndamere, like I mentioned, is a weird one because he levels up very easily, but he is only played because he is a big dude with overwhelm that helps you finish the game, and that also happens to be difficult to deal with because he needs to be killed two times. And finally, Heimerdinger is also a champion that is almost solely played for his base effect, and his level up is just a nice bonus.

      And here is where I partly disagree with the post above, because I don't think every champion should be played for the sole purpose of levelling up. However, I do think that they should at least meet one of the following requirements:

      1. A unique base effect in combination with a fitting level up that is rewarding enough for the amount of effort it requires (like the examples I mentioned above)

      2. A very rewarding level up that players should almost always want to achieve, which can excuse a lackluster base form (e.g. Kalista, Ezreal, Maokai, Thresh and Swain).

      I think Vi certainly doesn't meet requirement 2, and I think it's debatable whether she meets requirement 1. I think I would lean more towards the opinion that her level up isn't rewarding enough for the effort it requires.

      • Quote From GerritDeMan
        Quote From BasilAnguis

        I think Vi is bad, but not in the way OP said it. Vi is among the champs who their level up is secondary to their baseline versions. This is bad  in my eyes, you should try to level up your champs all the time, that's one of the selling points of the game. Braum and Sejuani suffer from this as well. Their leveled up forms simply aren't worth the time and effort they require to achieve. Sure, no one will complain if Vi levels up and slowly punches the enemy nexus to death, but she's used as just a good challenger unit, not a real build around. Her whole package of drawing cards, spamming 2 cost stuff fell flat. They work better in Jinx decks! And that's the opposite of how it should be thematic wise.

        I partly agree with this, because I think levelling up a champion should something that feels rewarding, but I don't think Braum and Sejuani have the same problem as Vi regarding their level ups.

        (Most of quote in spoiler)

        Show Spoiler

        Playing against a Braum, especially a buffed one, always forces you to keep his level up in mind, because he will create huge amounts of value once he reaches that point, and therefore his potential to level up is certainly impactful.

        Sejuani may be really hard to level, but she also gives a huge advantage if the player manages to do it, and thereby players are still encouraged to try to level her (or prevent it when playing against her).

        Vi's level up, on the other hand, isn't really in the form of "do X, then I do Y". She levels more gradually, but actually levelling her takes a lot of effort and the payoff just isn't really worth it (at least based on my experiences with her so far). Because of this and her base form already being strong enough, players are not encouraged enough to level her and instead play her as a very strong challenger unit.

        I think better comparisons to Vi are Draven, Vladimir, Shen, Tryndamere, and Heimerdinger, because they are all champions that you don't play more for their base form and not because you want to level them (Although Tryndamere is a bit of an odd one regarding his level up). Draven, like Vi, is just a very solid card on his own that you don't play with the purpose of levelling him. The main difference with Vi is that he is still quite a bit easier to level and his levelled form is also much more threatening compared to his base form. Vladimir is kind of the same in that he is played for his base form effect and his levelled form just gives him a good bonus effect. The same can be said for Shen, because he is mainly played for his unique support effect. Sadly I hardly ever see Shen being played so I can't say for sure whether his level up is rewarding enough for the amount of effort it requires, but I don't think it's encouraging enough to consistently try to level him. Tryndamere, like I mentioned, is a weird one because he levels up very easily, but he is only played because he is a big dude with overwhelm that helps you finish the game, and that also happens to be difficult to deal with because he needs to be killed two times. And finally, Heimerdinger is also a champion that is almost solely played for his base effect, and his level up is just a nice bonus.

        And here is where I partly disagree with the post above, because I don't think every champion should be played for the sole purpose of levelling up. However, I do think that they should at least meet one of the following requirements:

        1. A unique base effect in combination with a fitting level up that is rewarding enough for the amount of effort it requires (like the examples I mentioned above)

        2. A very rewarding level up that players should almost always want to achieve, which can excuse a lackluster base form (e.g. Kalista, Ezreal, Maokai, Thresh and Swain).

        I think Vi certainly doesn't meet requirement 2, and I think it's debatable whether she meets requirement 1. I think I would lean more towards the opinion that her level up isn't rewarding enough for the effort it requires.

        I 100% agree that the comparisons to Braum and Sejuani are wrong. Both have very powerful Level 2 forms, with Braum being capable of blocking just about any unit and generating a 3/3 with Overwhelm, and Sejuani being able to enable free attacks from anything with Fearsome (or your entire board if she's paired with Ashe). I also don't really think either is all that hard to level up, but they are slow to level, and Freljord doesn't have a ton of tools to make that easier, so you often find yourself relying on other regions to do the heavy lifting of leveling them up. (That's a separate problem for a separate discussion.)

        With respect to the proposed two requirements for a level up, though, I disagree a bit. Your two requirements basically outline a spectrum of champion quality - the worse they are to start, the more impactful their Level 2 form needs to be. But I think there's a second aspect that's not captured in that, so I'd frame it more like this:

        1. Every champion card needs to have a clear way it helps you to win the game*, and it should be usable as a major part of the win condition in its deck
        2. Every Level 1 champion card needs to have its level up condition and base form properly weighted against the ease with which its Level 2 form wins the game. The stronger the Level 2 form, the weaker and less impactful the Level 1 form should be.

        In this construction, it's okay if the level up isn't the be-all-end-all of the champion card, so long as the first requirement is met by the Level 1 form. In other words, your champion doesn't need to be exceptionally powerful, but there should be clear deck archetypes which are made stronger by including that champion.

        The last part of my first requirement is the most important part in my mind, and it's where many of the champions you mentioned (Draven, Shen, Tryndamere) fall short of what's ideal. It's clear that they are all fairly powerful cards (maybe even finishers) in the archetypes they're designed for, but it's not clear that any of them are essential to their archetypes. They're more like tech cards that occasionally show up if the meta game suits them. Nowhere is this more obvious than the current Burn Aggro deck, which runs 0 champions despite looking like a natural fit for Draven

        I think that's probably where Vi is. She's clearly insanely powerful - that's why she currently sees play in every top-tier midrange and control deck (even Demacian Bannerman, where she is occasionally a liability). But she's non-essential - she just shows up because P&Z is a very strong region and she's good in the current metagame as a tech card. All of those decks have other plans for winning the game, and it's not clear what deck/archetype you would play that would see Vi as a major or essential part of winning.

        * A caveat here is that there will always be champions whose path to victory is not viable in a given metagame. Braum is a good example of this today. In his Poro Buff deck, he's an essential part of surviving the early game and generating a sufficiently threatening board to beat your opponent in the mid game. But the Burn Aggro deck goes right over Braum's head, so having him block units doesn't protect your life total much and you lose before your deck gets online. Most of the other major decks in the meta are control decks that don't attack enough in the early to mid game to enable Braum either, and by the late game they have stronger win conditions than him.

      • Quote From GerritDeMan
        Quote From BasilAnguis

        I think Vi is bad, but not in the way OP said it. Vi is among the champs who their level up is secondary to their baseline versions. This is bad  in my eyes, you should try to level up your champs all the time, that's one of the selling points of the game. Braum and Sejuani suffer from this as well. Their leveled up forms simply aren't worth the time and effort they require to achieve. Sure, no one will complain if Vi levels up and slowly punches the enemy nexus to death, but she's used as just a good challenger unit, not a real build around. Her whole package of drawing cards, spamming 2 cost stuff fell flat. They work better in Jinx decks! And that's the opposite of how it should be thematic wise.

        I partly agree with this, because I think levelling up a champion should something that feels rewarding, but I don't think Braum and Sejuani have the same problem as Vi regarding their level ups.

        Playing against a Braum, especially a buffed one, always forces you to keep his level up in mind, because he will create huge amounts of value once he reaches that point, and therefore his potential to level up is certainly impactful.

        Sejuani may be really hard to level, but she also gives a huge advantage if the player manages to do it, and thereby players are still encouraged to try to level her (or prevent it when playing against her).

        Vi's level up, on the other hand, isn't really in the form of "do X, then I do Y". She levels more gradually, but actually levelling her takes a lot of effort and the payoff just isn't really worth it (at least based on my experiences with her so far). Because of this and her base form already being strong enough, players are not encouraged enough to level her and instead play her as a very strong challenger unit.

        I think better comparisons to Vi are Draven, Vladimir, Shen, Tryndamere, and Heimerdinger, because they are all champions that you don't play more for their base form and not because you want to level them (Although Tryndamere is a bit of an odd one regarding his level up). Draven, like Vi, is just a very solid card on his own that you don't play with the purpose of levelling him. The main difference with Vi is that he is still quite a bit easier to level and his levelled form is also much more threatening compared to his base form. Vladimir is kind of the same in that he is played for his base form effect and his levelled form just gives him a good bonus effect. The same can be said for Shen, because he is mainly played for his unique support effect. Sadly I hardly ever see Shen being played so I can't say for sure whether his level up is rewarding enough for the amount of effort it requires, but I don't think it's encouraging enough to consistently try to level him. Tryndamere, like I mentioned, is a weird one because he levels up very easily, but he is only played because he is a big dude with overwhelm that helps you finish the game, and that also happens to be difficult to deal with because he needs to be killed two times. And finally, Heimerdinger is also a champion that is almost solely played for his base effect, and his level up is just a nice bonus.

        And here is where I partly disagree with the post above, because I don't think every champion should be played for the sole purpose of levelling up. However, I do think that they should at least meet one of the following requirements:

        1. A unique base effect in combination with a fitting level up that is rewarding enough for the amount of effort it requires (like the examples I mentioned above)

        2. A very rewarding level up that players should almost always want to achieve, which can excuse a lackluster base form (e.g. Kalista, Ezreal, Maokai, Thresh and Swain).

        I think Vi certainly doesn't meet requirement 2, and I think it's debatable whether she meets requirement 1. I think I would lean more towards the opinion that her level up isn't rewarding enough for the effort it requires.

        Yes, you are correct. My examples were kinda bad, i just said what came to mind on the moment. Tbh i forgot Shen was even in the game. I disagree on Tyrnda actually, before at least he was played in Warmother's Call decks and one of his strong points was the level up condition (you could use Atrocity and have him survive and get bigger or clear the board with Ruination).

        • Quote From BasilAnguis
           

          Yes, you are correct. My examples were kinda bad, i just said what came to mind on the moment. Tbh i forgot Shen was even in the game. I disagree on Tyrnda actually, before at least he was played in Warmother's Call decks and one of his strong points was the level up condition (you could use Atrocity and have him survive and get bigger or clear the board with Ruination).

          Yeah you're right about Tryndamere. It's probably better to say that he is played because of his level up, but not with the purpose of actually levelling him.