Why No Bilgewater Nerfs?

So Bilgewater has been the tempo king since rising tides

https://lor.mobalytics.gg/stats/regions

mobalyitics has 3 of their lists exceeding 55 percent win rate.

https://www.swimstrim.com/runeterra/decks-and-meta

Swim has the number of top tier bilgewater lists at 5

and then there's literally everything else in the game that comes after

It absolutely blows the mind that this region has dodged nerfs this long, and really shows how little the developers play their own game.

You are thinking well they hit war chefs, and Ezreal, but those cards were never the issue.

It has always been the core region cards.

Best 3 drop, and is good at aggro and control plays

best removal in the game

best finisher in the game

best 1 drop in the game

best champ who might as well be bilgewater

I know you are all thinking QQ

but I just want to play the new set, and there's literally no reason to right now and that sucks

Casually ignores the Yordle Grifter nerf and the fact that they literally mentioned one of the cards in your post being on their watch list

Yeah, this is indeed a QQ post.

"Sejuani might as well be bilgewater"

Can you please only make posts when you're at least somewhat sober, thanks.

Dude that isn't a nerf, it just puts it in line with bannerman and every other allegience card, can you only post when you have a clue what you're talking about k thanks bye. Not to mention high level players are talking about the exact same thing, new set = pointless.

When's the last time any of you saw a Mogwai stream talking about the meta, or a meta update by Swim, thats because the meta is dominated by Bilgewater and until adjustments are made there is nothing to talk about. I'm all for liking the region, but do you guys seriously want the game to stagnate forever? 

Quote From Nifty129

When's the last time any of you saw a Mogwai stream talking about the meta, or a meta update by Swim, thats because the meta is dominated by Bilgewater and until adjustments are made there is nothing to talk about. I'm all for liking the region, but do you guys seriously want the game to stagnate forever? 

The things is the meta is not stagnate, during the last days of rising tides control/tempo decks were the most popular but because of Trundle/Aurelion Sol there has been a resurgence of aggro decks.

No it is stagnant, our meta is the same pre expansion as it was post expansion. You can run stuff that wins less often if you want to, but the majority won't. How much targon do you see now? How much Taric, how much of any champion that isnt Sol?

By the way ramp aka the only targon list is actually really bad from a win rate perspective so you are basically saying hey this one targon list is almost playable at high level

@Nifty129

I think everyone agrees with you that Bilgewater makes up more of the meta than it should and that there is a wide variety of viable Targon decks, but the way you’re presenting your points makes everyone downvote you. Also, there will be another balance patch in two weeks in which Riot said that they’ll address at least one Bilgewater card (Petty Officer) and buff a lot of underplayed Targon cards (the gem cards and Rumuul). The changes just didn’t happen in this patch because patches take so long to test and localize to all the different languages that they based the nerfs and buffs on only around the first week of the expansion, at which point it wasn’t super clear that Bilgewater would be dominant. In the next patch they will definitely nerf Bilgewater and buff Targon because they now have the data to definitively say that Bilgewater is overtuned. 
P.S. Sejuani has seen play in so many decks (Endure, Braum/Sejuani, Ashe Sejuani, etc) that shecan’t really be said to be a Bilgewater card. If you’re trying to level her up then Bilgewater is the best, but she’s so baseline powerful that she ends up in a lot of decks

Quote From Nifty129

By the way ramp aka the only targon list is actually really bad from a win rate perspective so you are basically saying hey this one targon list is almost playable at high level

Having above 50% win rate is bad? I really hope that you were being sarcastic there buddy. Besides that not the only new deck that's from the expansion that's doing well Shen/Lulu, Trundle/Tryndamere, Leona/Lux are also competitive decks.

I feel like this post could have been written in a better way to make you not look like someone who was tilted from like 2 games against bilgewater.

Quote From Nifty129

Dude that isn't a nerf, it just puts it in line with bannerman and every other allegience card, can you only post when you have a clue what you're talking about k thanks bye. Not to mention high level players are talking about the exact same thing, new set = pointless.

"That isn't a nerf, they just lowered the card's strength to put it in line with similar cards"

...the last line of my initial post still stands, you know.

Your 'clue of what you're talking about' is parroting swim and his tier list without thinking for yourself for even a second.

It's also the reason most of your posts are just transcriptions of his tier lists (both the mobalytics one and the one on his own website).

Think for yourself, for once. Swim isn't gonna tell you to which milk to buy.

Bilgewater could use a slight adjustment or other regions could use a buff. Riot has announced changes to Taric and Petty officier, so let's see what happens in the next patch. 

With Riots policy on buffing and nerfing I am not that worried about a stagnant period. 

I think the topic subject is quite interesting, the problem is how you present it:
"Hey guys, i am an expert at this game, riot team are just a bunch of incompetent scrubs, here are my reasons why and everyone who disagrees is also a scrub"

Back to the topic:
1- Jagged Butcher isn't the best drop 1 in the game. Precious Pet is. 
There is no 1 drop that can trade with Precious Pet on T1 alone. If we are taking 2 card combo into consideration, then the best T1 drop would be Zaunite Urchin + Jury-Rig, as this particular combo also generates 3 attack stats but without losing card advantage. So either way you are wrong.

2- Make it Rain is only situational good. The catch is that those "situations" happens quite often in the current meta. What makes this card particularly decent is its synergy with Kegs and holds a reliable Plunder effect. Best removal in the game is by far Ravenous Flock

3- Riptide Rex is not a finisher card. Is an AOE removal that SOMETIMES works also as a finisher. There isn't a single deck with a gameplan relying exclusively on Riptide Rex to close games.

4- Sejuani I see where you are going. I agree Sejuani has much better synergy with Bilgwater but so does Yasuo with Noxus and Maokai with Bilgwater and so on. I believe those champions were designed to be played on Bilgawater decks, but for Lore reasons they belong to other regions.

5- Petty Officer is the only one a fully agree. It just has too many stats overall with little risk, on top of situationally being able to generate a Keg.

And finally yes, this is indeed a QQ thread due to this part:
"but I just want to play the new set, and there's literally no reason to right now and that sucks"

Quote From Hellcopter

I think the topic subject is quite interesting, the problem is how you present it:
"Hey guys, i am an expert at this game, riot team are just a bunch of incompetent scrubs, here are my reason why and everyone who disagrees is also a scrub"

Back to the topic:
1- Jagged Butcher isn't the best drop 1 in the game. Precious Pet is. 
There is no 1 drop that can trade with Precious Pet on T1 alone. If we are taking 2 card combo into consideration, then the best T1 drop would be Zaunite Urchin + Jury-Rig, as this particular combo also generates 3 attack stats but without losing card advantage. So either way you are wrong.

2- Make it Rain is only situational good. The catch is that those "situations" happens quite often in the current meta. What makes this card particularly decent is its synergy with Kegs and holds a reliable Plunder effect. Best removal in the game is by far Ravenous Flock

3- Riptide Rex is not a finisher card. Is an AOE removal that SOMETIMES works also as a finisher. There isn't a single deck with a gameplan relying exclusively on Riptide Rex to close games.

4- Sejuani I see where you are going. I agree Sejuani has much better synergy with Bilgwater but so does Yasuo with Noxus and Maokai with Bilgwater and so on. I believe those champions were designed to be played on Bilgawater decks, but for Lore reasons they belong to other regions.

5- Petty Officer is the only one a fully agree. It just has too many stats overall with little risk, on top of situationally being able to generate a Keg.

And finally yes, this is indeed a QQ thread due to this part:
"but I just want to play the new set, and there's literally no reason to right now and that sucks"

I agree with everything that you said except for the Precious PetBADCARDNAME part, Solari Soldier can trade favorably with pet on turn one.

If youre talking about it I presented in the perfectly appropriate manner otherwise it would be a dead post. Thanks for participating.  Also, the whole we all think you're right, Bilgewater needs a nerf is where we will end things, the rest is just noise.

Quote From minuano28

Quote From Hellcopter

I think the topic subject is quite interesting, the problem is how you present it:
"Hey guys, i am an expert at this game, riot team are just a bunch of incompetent scrubs, here are my reason why and everyone who disagrees is also a scrub"

Back to the topic:
1- Jagged Butcher isn't the best drop 1 in the game. Precious Pet is. 
There is no 1 drop that can trade with Precious Pet on T1 alone. If we are taking 2 card combo into consideration, then the best T1 drop would be Zaunite Urchin + Jury-Rig, as this particular combo also generates 3 attack stats but without losing card advantage. So either way you are wrong.

2- Make it Rain is only situational good. The catch is that those "situations" happens quite often in the current meta. What makes this card particularly decent is its synergy with Kegs and holds a reliable Plunder effect. Best removal in the game is by far Ravenous Flock

3- Riptide Rex is not a finisher card. Is an AOE removal that SOMETIMES works also as a finisher. There isn't a single deck with a gameplan relying exclusively on Riptide Rex to close games.

4- Sejuani I see where you are going. I agree Sejuani has much better synergy with Bilgwater but so does Yasuo with Noxus and Maokai with Bilgwater and so on. I believe those champions were designed to be played on Bilgawater decks, but for Lore reasons they belong to other regions.

5- Petty Officer is the only one a fully agree. It just has too many stats overall with little risk, on top of situationally being able to generate a Keg.

And finally yes, this is indeed a QQ thread due to this part:
"but I just want to play the new set, and there's literally no reason to right now and that sucks"

I agree with everything that you said except for the Precious PetBADCARDNAME part, Solari Soldier can trade favorably with pet on turn one.

Counter-argument: I agree with Precious Pet being one of the best and Solari Soldier only beats it turn 1. However, if you don't attack with Precious Pet then Solari Soldier is a 2/2, and I think that most of the times the 3 damage on turn 1 vs 2 damage on turn 2 is better for the one using Precious Pet because it's most likely an aggro deck so damage matters more. Solari Soldier is kinda overrated imo. It's a bit worse than Jagged Butcher late game.

I think the best turn 1 swing play would be a nut hand with Spacey Sketcher into Jury-Rig into MoonlightBADCARDNAME into another Spacey Sketcher into another Jury-Rig then The Serpent. Though that's gonna lose you the game lol.

Looks fun. Let me try:
Oblivious Islander -> Oblivious Islander -> Hapless Aristocrat -> Ravenous Butcher -> Ravenous Butcher -> 10/6 on T1

Quote From Hellcopter

Looks fun. Let me try:
Oblivious Islander -> Oblivious Islander -> Hapless Aristocrat -> Ravenous Butcher -> Ravenous Butcher -> 10/6 on T1

Well the closest thing I can think of would be Shellshocker -> Jailbreak another Shellshocker x2 -> Jailbreak into Shadow Fiend -> 3 2/1s and a 4/3 Ephemeral. 10/6 as well, but highly luck-based.

You win this time.

Can we at least agree that maybe Sejuani should be harder to level up?

Considering that, like Ezreal, she levels up off the board and she's utterly backbreaking once she gets there, I think adding 1 or 2 rounds to her requirement would not be out of line.

Quote From FortyDust

Can we at least agree that maybe Sejuani should be harder to level up?

Considering that, like Ezreal, she levels up off the board and she's utterly backbreaking once she gets there, I think adding 1 or 2 rounds to her requirement would not be out of line.

I would like you to know that Sejuani is a perfectly balanced card.

I would also like you to know that Sejuani/Glangplank is most definitely NOT my favorite deck, and that the statement above is NOT biased. 

In most games Sejuani usually levels up around turn 8-9 which i think its fair.

If a player gets to hit the nexus without missing a single turn from the start, its possible to level Sejuani as soon as she hits the board on T6. But thats really hard to pull off.
Its very easy to miss 2 or 3 turns since dealing damage to the nexus on your oponnent's turn relies mostly on cards from the hand. Not to mention the gameplan is full of subotimal plays in order to level Gangplank/Sejuani ASAP.
Lastly, there is always the added risk to brick when both champions are not draw.

Quote From FortyDust

Can we at least agree that maybe Sejuani should be harder to level up?

Considering that, like Ezreal, she levels up off the board and she's utterly backbreaking once she gets there, I think adding 1 or 2 rounds to her requirement would not be out of line.

I just want to say this because we're talking about Sejuani's level up but the effect is inconsistent. The wording is similar to Lucian's leveled up effect but it doesn't trigger the way Lucian does where it has to wait a turn before you can trigger it and Rally. Meanwhile, Sejuani is able to freeze the board in the same turn you level her up? I'm not sure why it's like this but I feel like this should be considered a bug. I also feel like that if they do change it so it's more consistent with Lucian, it'd be a pretty decent nerf.

So the community found out that Sejuani could be a problem, 4 months after i started rolling with Sejuani  nexus burn without any worthy opponent aside of dragon demacia coming up for 3 months...

I am proud of you guys to get the memo.

A bit late but i don't mind you causing a nerf of Sejuani now since i got my place in master already ^^

Quote From minuano28

Quote From FortyDust

Can we at least agree that maybe Sejuani should be harder to level up?

Considering that, like Ezreal, she levels up off the board and she's utterly backbreaking once she gets there, I think adding 1 or 2 rounds to her requirement would not be out of line.

I would like you to know that Sejuani is a perfectly balanced card.

I would also like you to know that Sejuani/Glangplank is most definitely NOT my favorite deck, and that the statement above is NOT biased. 

Sejuani is a perfectly balanced card? Thats an interesting oppinion i gotta say..

Edit: my bad it was obviously meant ironically. Just forget about this comment...

Quote From TheTriferianGeneral

Quote From minuano28

Quote From FortyDust

Can we at least agree that maybe Sejuani should be harder to level up?

Considering that, like Ezreal, she levels up off the board and she's utterly backbreaking once she gets there, I think adding 1 or 2 rounds to her requirement would not be out of line.

I would like you to know that Sejuani is a perfectly balanced card.

I would also like you to know that Sejuani/Glangplank is most definitely NOT my favorite deck, and that the statement above is NOT biased. 

Sejuani is a perfectly balanced card? Thats an interesting oppinion i gotta say..

Oh, and everyone has known Sejuani is one of the strongest champs in the game for months now. Hate to break it to you but you're not special, bud.

Quote From iWatchUSleep

Quote From TheTriferianGeneral

Quote From minuano28

Quote From FortyDust

Can we at least agree that maybe Sejuani should be harder to level up?

Considering that, like Ezreal, she levels up off the board and she's utterly backbreaking once she gets there, I think adding 1 or 2 rounds to her requirement would not be out of line.

I would like you to know that Sejuani is a perfectly balanced card.

I would also like you to know that Sejuani/Glangplank is most definitely NOT my favorite deck, and that the statement above is NOT biased. 

Sejuani is a perfectly balanced card? Thats an interesting oppinion i gotta say..

sarcasm

/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/

noun

 

1. the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

    

 

Oh, and everyone has known Sejuani is one of the strongest champs in the game for months now. Hate to break it to you but you're not special, bud.

Sure thing, but how many serious Sejuani nerf discussions we had since rising tides? 2? Given how problematic this card is i think overall that the Community slep big way on Sejuani's powerlevel.

Ps: seems like many forum members are a little sensible to sarcasm and tend to dislike less nice formulated comments

For those I gotta say: get some grid,kid

I didn't think that the sarcasm in my post could have been anymore obvious but hey this is the internet I guess.

Quote From <a href=

Sure thing, but how many serious Sejuani nerf discussions we had since rising tides? 2? Given how problematic this card is i think overall that the Community slep big way on Sejuani's powerlevel.

No one is sleeping on Sejuani power, the things is the card is a juggernaut in decks that can turbo her but in decks who can't do that, she just came across as decent. 

Quote From Hellcopter

In most games Sejuani usually levels up around turn 8-9 which i think its fair.

If a player gets to hit the nexus without missing a single turn from the start, its possible to level Sejuani as soon as she hits the board on T6. But thats really hard to pull off.
Its very easy to miss 2 or 3 turns since dealing damage to the nexus on your oponnent's turn relies mostly on cards from the hand. Not to mention the gameplan is full of subotimal plays in order to level Gangplank/Sejuani ASAP.
Lastly, there is always the added risk to brick when both champions are not draw.

I doubt that GP Sejuani will continue to run 3 Copies of GP because Sejuani is the by far stronger Part of both and it is imo by no means necessary to have GP in play for the deck. With less copies of GP you can then play a more agressive,   level Sejuani earlier (turn 6-7), tutor it more reliably with Bjerg and win more reliably and then you don't have any of the issues you listed as justification for her strength anymore...

Quote From iWatchUSleep

Quote From Nifty129

Dude that isn't a nerf, it just puts it in line with bannerman and every other allegience card, can you only post when you have a clue what you're talking about k thanks bye. Not to mention high level players are talking about the exact same thing, new set = pointless.

...

Think for yourself, for once. Swim isn't gonna tell you to which milk to buy.

It would be perfectly cheeky and petty if Swim released a milk tier list on his front page.

You guys are so funny. If you spent the same amount of time thinking about card balance as you do tearing one another down you'd have fixed the game by now.

Quote From Nifty129

You guys are so funny. If you spent the same amount of time thinking about card balance as you do tearing one another down you'd have fixed the game by now.

Okay then... let's start with the bizness:

Sejuani: "level up effect: If the opponent's nexus takes damage during your attack, frostbite all enemies" 

Riptide Rex: "Plunder: Cast 4 Cannon Barrages at TARGET units" (Powerlevel down but decision making up)

The Leviathan: eighter: Health from 8 to 5 or "damage enemy nexus 2 times by 1" as the start of the round effect

Aurelion Sol 20 attack level up -> 25 attack level up

Stygian Onlooker: Combo: ... i mean Nightfall: gain +1 attack and fearsome until end of turn.

They Who Endure: 7->6 mana, loses overwhelm.

Twisted Fate rework: base card equal to now, level up: Whenever you play a card with cost of 2: pick a card.

Decisive Maneuver: No longer Resolves if the target leaves the battlefield before 

Ravenous Butcher: 0mana-> 1 mana 3/2-> 3/3

Solari Soldier and Jagged Butcher: 2/2 -> 2/1

Claws of the Dragon: 3/2 -> 2/2

Eye of the Dragon: 1/3 -> 1/2

Greenglade Duo: 2/1 -> 1/1

Hush: every additional copy of hush costs now 1 more mana per cast

Imperial Demolitionist: 2/3 -> 2/2

Make it Rain: deal 1 to the enemy nexus and 1 to target unit

Troll Chant: 2 mana -> 3 mana but gives 3 health now instead of 2

Stalking Shadows: 2mana-> 3 mana

Petty Officer: now eighter spawns a barrel or gives allies +1 attack this round 

Ancient Crocolith rework: 4mana -> 5 mana statline: 7/7 -> 3/3 overwhelm new effect: "kill 2 allies and grant me their stats"

Citybreaker: 0/5 -> 2/4

Duskrider: change Keyword from fearsome to overwhelm

Fused Firebrand: 5/5 -> 5/4

Razorscale Hunter: 5 mana -> 4 mana   4/4 ->3/3

Screeching Dragon 5 mana -> 6mana 4/5 -> 5/5

Genevieve Elmheart : 5/5 -> 4/5

Inviolus Vox :6 mana 5/6 -> 5 mana 5/5

Progress Day!: 8mana -> 7 mana

Grandfather Rumul: Play: grant all other allies +3 health

Is that enough? ;)

Quote From minuano28

I didn't think that the sarcasm in my post could have been anymore obvious but hey this is the internet I guess.

Quote From <a href=

Sure thing, but how many serious Sejuani nerf discussions we had since rising tides? 2? Given how problematic this card is i think overall that the Community slep big way on Sejuani's powerlevel.

No one is sleeping on Sejuani power, the things is the card is a juggernaut in decks that can turbo her but in decks who can't do that, she just came across as decent. 

 

I can make a bad deck for any champion you care to name. That doesn't make them "just decent."

Was own a losing streak built a Sej & GP now

9-1 in my last ten games my favorite was dropping dreadway then dropping a leveled GP that blew up their broad and nexus. Close second was triggering Sej on turn 7 to waste my opponents attack phase with a bunch of 0s then rallying and murdering those 0s that survived he immediatelysurrendered.

Sej and GP feel totally fine and not the slightest bit broke .......................

cant beat em .................. join em and help push up the win rate until the nerfs roll and you can go back to playing what you want.

Quote From TheTriferianGeneral

Quote From Hellcopter

In most games Sejuani usually levels up around turn 8-9 which i think its fair.

If a player gets to hit the nexus without missing a single turn from the start, its possible to level Sejuani as soon as she hits the board on T6. But thats really hard to pull off.
Its very easy to miss 2 or 3 turns since dealing damage to the nexus on your oponnent's turn relies mostly on cards from the hand. Not to mention the gameplan is full of subotimal plays in order to level Gangplank/Sejuani ASAP.
Lastly, there is always the added risk to brick when both champions are not draw.

I doubt that GP Sejuani will continue to run 3 Copies of GP because Sejuani is the by far stronger Part of both and it is imo by no means necessary to have GP in play for the deck. With less copies of GP you can then play a more agressive,   level Sejuani earlier (turn 6-7), tutor it more reliably with Bjerg and win more reliably and then you don't have any of the issues you listed as justification for her strength anymore...

Thats actually a decent idea.
Just pointing out your strategy has one small flaw: the oponnent could save all his removals to deal exclusively with Sejuani as soon as she hits the field.

Quote From MasticoreFTW

 

It would be perfectly cheeky and petty if Swim released a milk tier list on his front page.

Haha, I honestly wouldn't even put it past the guy.

Hey look, Swim and Mobalytics edited their tier lists and multiple bilgewater decks got knocked down a tier. Is it time for you to change opinion again?

Swim actually put two targon decks in tier 1 now. Is Targon Actually Good After All?

Quote From FortyDust

Quote From minuano28

I didn't think that the sarcasm in my post could have been anymore obvious but hey this is the internet I guess.

Quote From <a href=

Sure thing, but how many serious Sejuani nerf discussions we had since rising tides? 2? Given how problematic this card is i think overall that the Community slep big way on Sejuani's powerlevel.

No one is sleeping on Sejuani power, the things is the card is a juggernaut in decks that can turbo her but in decks who can't do that, she just came across as decent. 

 

I can make a bad deck for any champion you care to name. That doesn't make them "just decent."

You can make a bad deck for any champion ? That's quite impressive.

Quote From minuano28

Quote From FortyDust

Quote From minuano28

I didn't think that the sarcasm in my post could have been anymore obvious but hey this is the internet I guess.

Quote From <a href=

Sure thing, but how many serious Sejuani nerf discussions we had since rising tides? 2? Given how problematic this card is i think overall that the Community slep big way on Sejuani's powerlevel.

No one is sleeping on Sejuani power, the things is the card is a juggernaut in decks that can turbo her but in decks who can't do that, she just came across as decent. 

 

I can make a bad deck for any champion you care to name. That doesn't make them "just decent."

You can make a bad deck for any champion ? That's quite impressive.

My point being, in evaluating a card's power, you don't look at the decks where it's "just decent." You look at the decks where it is at its strongest.

That's a very narrow minded view my friend. Take the example of the They Who Endure deck, it existed since the beta but back then it was considered to be nothing but a meme deck, because you did nothing but spam blockers hoping that you would draw They Who Endure and Atrocity before your opponent could finish you off. It's not until the release rising tides that the deck became top tier, because it got access to the infamous Blighted Caretaker into Cursed Keeper combo among other things. allowing you to trade effectively while boosting They Who Endure. 

Long story short if it wasn't for the card mentioned above endure wouldn't be seeing much play.

I think that the true problematic card is [Hearthstone Card (Warning Shot) Not Found] that card enable so many powerful play for free ( Sejuani, Riptide Rex, any plunder card ) and worst of all you can't interrupt it. 

Quote From minuano28

That's a very narrow minded view my friend. Take the example of the They Who Endure deck, it existed since the beta but back then it was considered to be nothing but a meme deck, because you did nothing but spam blockers hoping that you would draw They Who Endure and Atrocity before your opponent could finish you off. It's not until the release rising tides that the deck became top tier, because it got access to the infamous Blighted Caretaker into Cursed Keeper combo among other things. allowing you to trade effectively while boosting They Who Endure. 

 

Dude, i don't mean to be rude but you are mistaken.
I was the guy who created They Who Endure deck and made it to Master top 50 rank before Bilgwater. So i can give all the feedback needed.

The deck was indeed meme in the beginning since it had incredibly bad matchups against Elusives and Fearsome decks, and both reigned supreme in the beta days. Once both decks got slowly but consistently nerfed patch after patch, Demacia became a very popular S tier deck and They Who Endure was very good against it. Thats when i reached Master Rank 13.
After Bilgwater, Blighted Caretaker helped the deck but you are missing the fact they nerfed both Brood Awakening and Iceborn Legacy so i'd say it was an even trade.

Your not rude buddy, thanks for the insight.