Legends of Runeterra
Up To Date Winrates Post Patch
Man the tier list is straight up out the window right now.
https://lor.mobalytics.gg/stats/regions
When you actually examine the up to date win rates for decks the existing tier lists are essentially useless.
We have seen a massive number of decks drop to a barely playable winrate like 51%
So I'll list only the decks that are currently 53% and higher, yes the list is kinda scuffed.
1. Kenin Ahiri 57% combo is doing well into the grindy card piles people are running
2. Spider aggro 57% yeeep good old Elise perhaps the best vanilla champ
3. Pirate aggro 56% never went anywhere always was good always will be
4. Lurk 55% the most resilient midrange deck in Runeterra will always have a place
5. Pantheon 54% Whiteflame is a good card bro
6. Rally Zed 54% you know the drill
7. Darkness 53% solid control
8. Poros 53% grindy aggro
Everything else has dropped to 0 like a bullet. Plunder midrange get out of here, poppy decks gone, yordle burn gone, Sion never knew yeee, Akshan who? Lee Sin what?
Honestly it's time for a new mobalytics tier list because all these nerfs, plus the recent buffs, plus meta defining grindy cards like white flame have absolutely upset the meta.
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Man the tier list is straight up out the window right now.
https://lor.mobalytics.gg/stats/regions
When you actually examine the up to date win rates for decks the existing tier lists are essentially useless.
We have seen a massive number of decks drop to a barely playable winrate like 51%
So I'll list only the decks that are currently 53% and higher, yes the list is kinda scuffed.
1. Kenin Ahiri 57% combo is doing well into the grindy card piles people are running
2. Spider aggro 57% yeeep good old Elise perhaps the best vanilla champ
3. Pirate aggro 56% never went anywhere always was good always will be
4. Lurk 55% the most resilient midrange deck in Runeterra will always have a place
5. Pantheon 54% Whiteflame is a good card bro
6. Rally Zed 54% you know the drill
7. Darkness 53% solid control
8. Poros 53% grindy aggro
Everything else has dropped to 0 like a bullet. Plunder midrange get out of here, poppy decks gone, yordle burn gone, Sion never knew yeee, Akshan who? Lee Sin what?
Honestly it's time for a new mobalytics tier list because all these nerfs, plus the recent buffs, plus meta defining grindy cards like white flame have absolutely upset the meta.
I liked most of changes in the patch but man was that Sion nerf stupid.
Yeah I have nothing against the meta persay it seems to punish a lot of traditional deck building styles like midrange or many forms of spell control.
Youre either the aggro, the one combo deck always Ahiri, or you're just grindy board value card pile.
So I think in general Champs just seem bad right now, like trying turbo level something or build around in general. It would explain why Poros is doing as well as it's doing its just grindy value beef.
I think poros and spiders mainly work because they have many cheap units that get buffed by Iceborn Legacy to unresonable sizes. There is simply no elusive deck that can compete with a bunch of 5/5 Daring Poros or any midrange/control list that can answer turn 5 boards filled with 4/3 spiderlings
To me the best thing riot could do now is to revert Iceborn Legacy to it's original effect which means 3 mana burst speed but only grant +1/+1.
Old Iceborn Legacy was really good New Iceborn Legacy is imo too good.
What do you think?
I don't really have a problem with spiders, Spiderling don't have evasive keywords so you can block them with your unit's, and SI/Freljords don't have many cheap ways of generating spiders outside of Crawling Sensation which you can play around. So yeah a Spider deck will out value you eventually but you can slow down their aggression until you get your own win con ready.
Elusive poros on the other hand are just cancer, you can tutor them with Poro Herder, you have many cheap ways to generate more in the form of Poro Cannon and Iterative Improvement and contrary to spiders they don't entirely depends on Iceborn Legacy, because they have Poro Snax for extra buffs. Then you have the Elusive keyword which require you to have a unit plus Sharpsight or a silence just to block the damn thing.
The game definitely need more reach like effects. Otherwise any time they make some good buff cards, you can bet that some elusive deck is gonna abuse them. It already happened in the past with Solitary Monk and Stand Alone and more recently with Poppy/Zed.
even with reach being a thing the Daring Poro strategy will be very hard to disrupt.
most decks can kill 1-2 5/5 elusives already but 5+ of them that cost only 1 mana each? There is no deck that realistically can do so and even with reach there won't.
Especially Ionia doesn't have any form of counterplay to legacy Daring Poros despite being one of the regions witht the best removal in the game and being the region with the highest number of elusive units. Their elusive units are too small their counterspells can't interact with snacks/iceborn and their recall effects... well aren't that good when used on 1 mana units.
Other regions also struggle with poros (or more like cheap elusive spam that doesn't have to do anything with the original poro theme) no questions asked but given that THE counterplay regions knows no answer to this strategy make it look really degenerate to me.
You best bet is to rush the poro player and despite that being doable it's only doable for a small subset of decks.
My big thing is I like when Champs are good. Like the kindred buff was nice. A while back the jarvan level up buff was great.
But when vanilla followed cards like whiteflame, iceborn tribal, generic value card piles are the optimal way to play the game things feel pretty boring.
So I'd rather see something toxic like fiora Shen, tf Fizz, Azir Irelia, because those decks actually do things and have unique play patterns etc.
Like hate them all you want but what's less stupid a fizz level up into a bunch of small free elusive, or a 1/1 elusive poro grinding out value into a big chonker. No animation, no card synergy, no champ, just blaaaaaah.
Like actual card vomit turned into a deck. So one solution is to again keep saying this buff Champs and keep buffing underplayed Champs till they aren't underplayed. That takes priority over nerfs for me.
That just like saying hey let's replace this trash with garbage.
Twisted Fate/Fizz didn't play that much different from elusive poro it was mostly about spamming a bunch of zero mana elusives and buffing them. TF was just their to make the deck more consistent and offer a secondary win con.
Fiora/Shen was never toxic, it didn't make control or aggro unplayable and even at it's most powerful the deck had a mostly a 50/50, 45/55 match up table but it was a top tier for a long time so people got tired or it same thing happened to Ezreal/Draven.
The frustrating part to me is that they are lot's of fun deck in this meta Senna/Veigar, Taliyah/Ziggs, Pantheon/Taric, Turbo Thralls but they are overshadowed yet another elusive deck.
I used a example of decks people know about that featured Champs as primary win cons.
But like sure if we are dreaming let's go top tier Ash Thres, Thaliyah Malphite, top tier deep.
I just want champ focused win cons to actually win games.
Most decks that win seen to win despite any Champs they are running as opposed to because of them.
Ezreal Kenin used to win because kenin burned opponents down to 0.
Now Kenin delays the game until Ahiri can elusive swing you down to 0. Like if she just was a vanilla 2/3 elusive quick attack follower it would literally change nothing.
Good Champs, with unique play styles and wincons, over grindy value wars where you just swing over ans over again with hard to remove stuff for value.
Edit: Champs are supposed to be Runeterras plainswalkers (mtg) and unfortunately Legends doesn't work as a card game if 95% of those planeswalkers (aka the characters you care about) are just a joke. Like they hit the board and they are less threatening than 1 one mana fur ball...that's the game right now.
The winrate of poros is not nearly as high as people think it is.
It was very heavily played for, like, 2 days, and now it's dropped off very steeply. It's not actually as big of a problem as people initially thought it was.
On a related note - can we all, as a CCG community, just stop with the knee-jerk reactions? How many times do we have to get egg on our faces by crying for nerfs or making predictions with only 2 days of data in a volatile meta?
If poros is posting high winrates and high playrate in two weeks, THAT is the time to call for nerfs, to whine about it, etc etc. But not mere days after it even became a real thing, for basically the first time ever.
Side note - Iceborn Daring Poros is NOT an aggro deck. It's a combo deck. People who try to play it as aggro (by dropping daring poros as soon as they draw them) are gonna get their butts handed to them by any competent player.
I personally hate to call decks like daring poro buff a combo deck because it's not like you actually combine 2 cards combining their effects for greater payoff.
Iceborn legacy decks all tend to be token decks where the key function of your deck is to replicate card x as much as possible. In a way that is a "combo" but really it's just playing the same card over and over and over and more of a strange midrange deck.
To me poros are as much of a combo deck as jade golems in hs are.
Edit: I will only consider those decks combo decks where a sequence of cards played result in a direct win, or where a specific synergy is used to break midocre cards. Anthem effects like Poro Snax and or Iceborn Legacy do not count for me.
Let's see if we can lay out the key components of a combo deck:
1. A small handful of key cards that combine together to give a high chance of just winning immediately when those cards are drawn and played.
2. Most of the rest of the deck is card draw, to make sure you find the combo.
3. It takes at least a few turns to set up the combo. It doesn't really have an alternate wincon - it wins with the combo or it loses. It also has VERY little interaction to respond to what the opponent is doing. It just tries to pull off its own gameplan.
4. It is vulnerable to being "rushed down" while it tries to assemble its combo.
5. Probably some other things I'm not thinking of.
Regardless, all of those things are true about Iceborn Daring Poros. I don't think it fits any other category besides combo. And you beat it the same way you beat combo - rush it down, or force it to defend itself (which it cannot do). And incidentally, this is why the winrate is not out of control - it's quite vulnerable to some decks.
I've had this buff Champs stance for like six months now. I don't actually want anymore nerfs. I've said that too.
Like every single time they buff a champ I revisit the game braum, anivia, Trundle, Kindred, Jarvan, etc.
And I'll do the same if TF is actually possible to level again, or Fiora.
Like every single champ nerf narrowed the valid play field and sometimes this is necessary when a deck is oppressive but assuming that certain Champs will remain oppressive for the rest of the games life cycle is kinda dumb.
Like TF is cool, people want to play TF and they want to level him, like that's the game.
Just using card Boi as an example.
#strongchampions #onlybuffs #funreuneterra
I kinda can agree that Twisted Fate wasn't too opressive toward any specific strategy. The "problem" with him is his jack of all trades nature that turns him into a strong champion no matter what the matchup is. I could see reverting the nerf to his level up condition while keeping Pick a Card as it is.
Fiora however really needs a rework: how about giving Fiora a selfheal/value identity: make her level 1 Form a 3/3 challenger that when it slays an enemy restores it's life completely and level 2 Fiora a 4/4 with scout that restores her life on slay and grant herself +1/+1
She would be a very powerful duellist and she would fit demacia's board oriented playstyle she however doesn't resemble an all in wincondition anymore.
A Champion that also needs a reword since ages is lee sin. Sure we don't have a meta where he shines right now but does that mean he is a healthy champion no and he proably will never be healthy in his current form. I currently don't know how a strong but fair lee sin would look like but for sure it would look different than his current form.
The problem with Lee is Zenith Blade, or any card that gives Overwhelm. THAT is why he was prevalent when he was, because he could OTK you without that much effort. I don't think it's good service to nerf Dragon's Rage and consequently his lvl 2 just because of Overwhelm, but that keyword makes OTK Lee decks that much more oppressive.
I would still think it's better to just nerf Zenith Blade without touching Lee - that way, he's not as oppressive because of less incentive to run him with Targon. Perhaps giving Overwhelm only on Daybreak would be a solid middle-ground so that the Lee player has to make a more meaningful choice, and also can't play Lee into Blade on the same time without Rahvun.
"Truth is in the shadows, waiting to be revealed by the light. But light only disperses the shadow." - Me
"If other people shared traits of those considered naive, the world would've become a better place." - Also me
Runeterra just isn't very fun if Champs feel like follower, or are even worse than followers.
Like I would never play Fiora over Laurent protégé now, and that's really bad.
Tf is basically just a cycle or removal tool that's bad too.
Thresh is a worse challenger dragon in every sense this is also bad.
Like I can do this all day but the point is Runeterra as a card game doesn't function unless Champions feel like planeswalkers aka have inherent deck synergies, have level requirements that are game winning.
Its like when Gwent got rid of gold immunity and gold cards felt worse than bronze cards. It literally destroyed their game and belive it or not fans asked for this. Like nerf gold cards they are too strong and now all of a sudden your motivation for playing the game is gone.
Zenith Blade isn't the problem. Lee Sin problem is his ability to grant himself a barrier every turn which coupled with the good already good protective tools in Ionia makes night impossible to remove without something like Minimorph.
Riven is a champion that can OTK you with even less effort than Lee because she can give herself overwhelm and boost her own stats, yet nobody complains about Riven because she doesn't require you to run burst speed removal.
I feel like the best way to nerf Lee Sin (at least the most efficient one) is by reducing his Power to 2 or even 1 therefore slowing down his gameplan but not effectively killing his combo entirely. The decks that has a bad matchup with him will still likely lose but Lee Sin won't be able to just cheese out wins as often.
Though, I don't think this will ever happen seeing as the devs had once said that they had thought about it when he was 4 Mana but still decided to make him a 5 mana 3/5 and seeing as they never tried to nerf him ever since, I don't think it's ever happening.
Take my words with a grain of salt. I'm unranked and only play casuals lmao.
Omg are we nerfing Lee Sin now too even with its abysmal winrate.
Killing Poppy and Azir and literally every single champ focus strategy wasn't enough in the game?
God we really are looking at Gwent all over again.
Champs are supposed to win games guys its literally the reason they are in the game.
Case study: When burn aggro was the best deck in the game for what felt like 2 years running they could of nerfed temo said plant 4 mushrooms given him quick attack instead of elusive or whatever.
But the devs said no that's stupid let's nerf the followers instead so we dont take the fun out of our game. When Nab was oppressive once again they nerfed the follower instead of gangplank because they knew Champs go in lots of decks followers go in 1 deck.
Now they seem to have reverted that design philosophy and we are feeling its affects now. Less deck building, less originality, less hard muliganing to keep Champs always muliganing for combo or curve. Like it dumbs everything down to pure math, and honestly as a game of math Legends sucks you needs quests and high rolls and lucky draws if you want the game to remain relevant.
We need highrolls in the game to keep it relevant? I don't see how this was ever necessary for a good game?
Consistantcy was always a key feature of good decks which is why boat effects were introduced.
There is nothing wrong with putting power budget into champions but with an overall increasing powerlevel and an increasing quality of spot removal playing around single champions is not supposed to be a key to success anymore.
Champion designes like Zoe are the new way to go for champions: rather cheap units that generate value and which resemles a viable lvl 2 win condition which doesn't care if the unit dies right after level up.
Lee Sin is a huge outlier in the championpool and kinda the last champion to be hyperresilient to removal.
There is no good reason why a 5 mana champion should be an outlier in this regard. I could see him doing what he does on 7+ mana since greater costs comes with greater tolerance for an acceptable powerlevel (looking at unnerfed Sion)
Lee Sin is literally a 51% winrate champ focused win con and one of the only ones left in the game.
Is he an outlier absolutely because every single champ that win on level up has been nerfed into the ground and I guess he's soon to join them.
Yes card games need variance. They need variance in terms of the power between the cards aka legendaries are better than commons, and they need variance in terms of win conditions and play patterns.
Like of we talk about MTG tournaments I remember top deck glory bringer because it's a cool card and it was very strong at the time.
If this was Riot we're talking about they would nerf on a common scale so any rare or legendary or champion card that out performs a common needs to get slapped.
The only cost to pay is that champions have become redundant and useless foe the most part.
Like is Pantheon the card that wins nah its white flame, does Sion win nope its Zaunite urchin. In fact you don't even see many level ups these days, why would you if you're just gonna lose anyway.
Edit: you guys seem to forget but it used to be if a champion leveled you would just auto win.
1. Tf carding things to oblivion
2. Sejuani chain freezing at burst speed
3. Fiora OTK
4. Deep board flooding
5. Azir extra attacks
Now it's oh your champ leveled I don't care cuz you're dead, stop questing and get back to playing Runeterra at its most vanilla and brain dead version ever.
Variance is fun folks, strong champions auto winning games is fun...otherwise it's just nail dragging value wars and its boring. Synergy is dead, deck building is dead, Champs are dead, strategy is dead.
"Synergy is dead, deck building is dead, Champs are dead, strategy is dead."
Alright who told you that nonsens? Champions ARE still meaningful. Champions ARE better than their follower cards by a lot.
Champions no longer go unanswered and if that is something that bothers you you better go complain about Hush Minimorph Vengeance and the likes of them which are the reasons why the role of champions changed.
And a good example of deck building not being dead is the latest Hextech Handler swarm deck. I mean yeah it's kinda silly to play against and it's kinda broken but it's a quite unique build that hasn't been seen in the past (as far as I know)
I agree in general about the importance of Champions to the game, and I definitely think the following two things should always be true about LoR:
All that said, the idea that Champs should be auto-wins is clearly a bad design goal, for two major reasons.
First, it emphasizes linear gameplay. You need look no further than Quests and Questlines in Hearthstone to see exactly how building your deck around a hyper-specific win condition makes the game overly linear. Admittedly, the Hearthstone examples are more egregious because you always start with your Quest in hand, but the basic premise is the same - a deck built around drawing and leveling a Champion for the sake of some auto-win is going to ultimately lead to linear games where each player is just trying to outdraw the opponent. It might have been okay in the earlier days of LoR, but as more and more card draw is introduced to the game, this becomes more and more streamlined and miserable to play against.
Second, it fails to really suit the diverse roles of a given Champion. LoL has a wide array of Champion classes which describe how that champion functions at a high level. Braum is a great example of doing this right - he's a Tank/Warden champion, so he should be highly defensive and more useful as a support tool than a win condition. That's manifested through his high health/low attack statline and his challenger and regeneration keywords. He can win you the game over time by generating a ton of Mighty Poros, but he's more likely to just help you push damage to face by challenging your opponent's biggest blocker and forcing them to make bad trades.
There are probably classes of Champions (e.g. Slayer/Assassin types) that should auto-win the game, but I don't really think that should be broadly true about Champions.
Honestly, if Champs aren't wincons they have no place in the game.
They are chronically under-stated by design therefore if they arent questing wincons they essentially serve no purpose at all and come with a massive build around cost to boot.
Like look at just streamers covering the game Swims gone, Mogwais gone they are too afraid to articulate why the game isn't fun anymore because they'll get bogged down in discussion.
I'm not afraid of that ineffectual Champs that can't win games are ruining Runeterra and so is over nerfing Champs in favor of over-stated followers.
I should be scared when a 7 mana champ hits the board I shouldn't be scared when a 3 mana common names white flame hits the board I just shouldn't.
It should be the card I play that delays things till I actually win with my champ it shouldn't be the main win con on its own. It's just too bland and vanilla. Also the main dynamic of Runeterra is protecting Champs with burst spells well you ain't gonna do that if they generally suck.
Champion auto wining on level up is exactly the kind of braindead play patter that you claim to be against, because that mean you just play a game of solitaire were the goal is turbo level your champions, but more importantly at no point of this game was that ever a thing.
Sure they were many champions who could win the game if left unanswered but that is not the same as auto winning take pre-nerf Sion when he level up and attack he would usually win the game but they were many ways your opponent could deal with him including silence, stunt, frostbite, obliterate, recall. Sejuani could perma-freeze your board but that did not win you the game in itself you needed another cards like Gangplank or The Dreadway to finish off the opponent plus any hard removal could deal with her.
That also goes for decks that built around a single champion like Anivia she did not auto win on level up since you needed to kill her multiple times then play The Harrowing to get a board full of Anivias and finish the game.
Even Twisted Fate who had one the most powerful level up in the game ( If not the most powerful ) mostly served as a powerful control and value engine, you needed either Pack Your Bags ( for TF/GoHard) or elusive unit's ( for TF/Fizz ) to actually win the game.
Its not brain dead because you actually had to build a high synergy deck for your champion.
Like if you lost to Malphite coming down on 7 I' sorry but youre the brain dead one.
Its just also happens to simultaneously be a terrible card that will never ever happen.
Same thing with Fiora, or Tf or any other card that made players go waaaah I had 8 cards in my 0 synergy greed list and lost anyway thats unfair!
How can I be small brain me big big brain?
Case study: I got to diamond easily one season with Renekton like literally considered one of the worst Champs. I did it by feeding exclusively off greed with fast paced high synergy overwhelm list that included interesting card choices.
Now try running Renekton go ahead just try value trading into the beefy game winning commons every deck is made up of now...I'll wait.
Reality check: plunder midrange is at 51% guys like literally the top tier bilgewater deck that has been around for as long as I remember. Want to know why? Too champ focused commons aren't strong enough to win games even when they literally steal your opponents deck? Like come on the writings on the wall.
Any deck has to have synergy to be even mildly competitive, that's just like the ABC of deck building, it doesn't take genius to know that if you have Ekko in your deck then your gonna need a couple of predict cards, but when your deck is all about turbo leveling a champion then you usually repeat the same play patterns during every match and that is pretty braindead.
A good example of that would be lurks, lurks needs high synergy to work but it's one the most braindead deck out there, play unit attack, rinse and repeat and hope you high roll Pyke of Rek'Sai in your predicts or top decks.
Same for Daybreak the deck need to be synergistic to work but it's pretty one dimensional you start with Solari Soldier turn 1, a Solari Shieldbearer (or another Soldier) turn 2, a Solari Priestess (or another Shieldbearer) on the turn 3, Leona on four, Rahvun, Daylight's Spear on five
As for plunder midrange, her a little bit of fact on the deck, it did existed since the Bilgewater expansion but back then it was a tier 3 at best, It didn't became top tier until patch 2.11.
Reason that it fall down the tier list are both the buff to Vengeance and the nerf to Monster Harpoon, the former is a good counter to it's champion who are the deck main win condition, the latter was an essential tool for deck to stabilize during midgame since plunder is bad at trading because most of your unit's have less than 3 power.
Still the deck is by no mean bad now.
Setting aside the fact that an aggregate 51% win rate across players of all skill levels is really not bad, I'm not seeing 51% for Plunder Midrange, I'm seeing 53.3%. Not the highest win rate, but perfectly respectable (again, particularly true when you consider that this is an aggregate across players whose skill levels vary). The "Archetypes" view on Mobalytics has a slightly lower win rate (52.9%), but still respectable and above 51%
Oh wow I was 1 percent off the top of my head and thats an aggregate I probably saw a list specific score.
Also saying you don't have to be a genius to build Ekko to only realize that rhe deck has like a 48% winrate.
You would have to be a genius to pilot a list to masters with Ekko in it. Do you guys even think about the words you write prior to posting?
Also 52% for a S tier champ focused strategy is awful like absolutely awful.
Face it hard nerfing every champ that begins to perform slightly statistically better than your average common follower is a stupid design philosophy and it's killing the game slowly.
Like was Poppy thaaaat bad as a 3/3 for 4 mana did she need to be a 2/3. Did Fiora really need to be a 3/2 for 3 mana like literally the same stats as the 2 mana dragon challenger.
Did TF need to be impossible to level?
What about Shen he's not even an op card?
Like God I can do this all day all these once great cards went form unique and interesting to deleted just shot dead in the heart because a minority of bad players cried about it because they couldn't hard counter specific strategies.
Ezreal might be the worst victim pretty sure he's been nerfed on like 5 seperate ocassions or decks where he featured prominently...burn is op guys we can't have non linear non hit face strategies we just can't...too small brain for the big brain folk out there.
Let's look at the top performing decks right now. Dr. Lor's meta report.
Your thesis, Nifty, is that champions don't matter enough currently. Here are the top 10 decks, by competitive winrate:
1. Lulu Fizz - a deck where both champs are crucially important to winning
2. Rally Elusives - champs are not very important
3. Kennen Ahri Absolver - champs are extremely important AND they also need to level up (side note - this is universally considered the most powerful deck in the game presently)
4. Spider burn - champs aren't that important, though Elise definitely helps a lot, and her level up is also relevant.
5. Pantheon Taric - umm, yeah. This deck is all about the champs.
6. Pirates - the champs aren't required, but they make it a ton easier to win if you draw and level them
7. Draven Rumble - champs are important
8. P&Z Noxus Burn - champs don't matter
9. Scouts - champs are very relevant here
10. Shyvana Pantheon - again, champs definitely matter.
So, we have 3 out of the top 10 winrate decks currently where the champs don't matter much. That does not seem to support your thesis very well at all.
And if you take a look at what archetypes don't care about champions it all are aggro decks
It should not surprise anyone that champions who by design aren't supposed to instantly level up won't be played for their level 2 in those lists.
So it's not because champions being weak but decks aiming for faster endings that building around champions is maybe less a thing than in the early days of LoR
I said that you don't need to be genius to know that a champion is gonna need some card that synergies with him if your gonna build a deck around him, at no point did I mention piloting said champion, don't act like we don't know what were are saying when your the one who can't understand a basic sentence.
What are you even talking about Shen was not nerfed.
I don't mean to nitpick, but in this case I think it matters that you weren't 1% off, you were 2% off. That puts Plunder Midrange at the cutoff you set out in your original post for decks that remain relevant.
It's certainly not the best aggregate win rate you'll see on Mobalytics, but in any healthy metagame you wouldn't expect to see aggregate win rates exceeding around 55% or so anyway, so it's perfectly respectable.