Yeah it really depends on your philosophy, Zillian, Malphite, and Thaliyah are amazingly well designed cards, and I'll throw Eko in there...but yes they are bad.
The most optimized Eko list has a 40% winrate when piloted by the best players.
But is the solution for releasing a new champions just to make it universally good at everything so it does see play?
Seems like Riot was maybe getting frustrated and thought it better just to overtune and nerf later.
It sounds to me like you are reflecting frustrations from real life back at the world through online BMing. It is good to have an outlet for that, and I agree that emote spamming in HS is a long way from the most damaging approach, but there must be better options that don't drag strangers into something that had nothing to do with them?
It really doesn't matter whether you are confused by their response to BMing. All that matters is that you know it does cause negative responses in some people, so you are knowingly passing your own frustrations onto other people. Maybe that makes you feel better, but shifting annoyances around like this doesn't improve things at a societal level.
In fact, the odds are quite high that the people annoying you at work are doing exactly the same thing: someone annoys them but for whatever reason they cannot resolve it with the people initially at fault, so they pass their annoyances to you by being immature when they encounter you. You then pass it on to people playing HS, who then pass it on to someone else in some other way. Eventually the cycle might come all the way back around to you. It's basically all a diffusion of frustration through society, with each step in the process more tame than the last, but spread to more people. That would be fine if little annoyances didn't accumulate in a way that makes someone as angry as if a single massive thing happened, but they can and they do.
The way to stop this cycle is simply to find ways to vent frustrations that don't pass them onto someone else. For me that might be going for a walk if I just need to calm down a little, or drumming for a while if I need to really thrash it out of me. Do whatever you like for it, just don't keep pretending BMing online is a good solution simply because you don't empathise with the people who find it annoying.
Anyway, I'll stop my side of this discussion there. Hopefully you give some of this stuff some proper thought (especially the comparison between BMing and bullying, which was made independently by 3 people), even if you still end up disagreeing with me.
This is a really well-done post. I wish I could upvote it more.
One of Hagatha's vile creations - You might try to kill The Wereloc but will quickly find that its curse has spread to others.
Thoughts on whether this should transform any minion, or specifically murlocs?
Feedback:
Show Spoiler
@Demonxz95 - This is an interesting idea for a card, but perhaps an unexciting one. If you've seen Mark Rosewater's talk on 20 lessons from MTG (highly recommend watching), he talks a bit about this kind of design being interesting for the designer, but falling flat with players due to the differences in "Intellectual" stimulation vs "Emotional" stimulation. At least personally I don't have that strong emotional response to the card.
@linkblade91 - Go ahead and make it an epic. We have Nofin Can Stop Us that sees little play and is effectively the same +2/+2 effect at a similar cost. I think the cost of sacrificing a minion is larger than you might think. I think for wording you may have to have "Destroy a friendly murloc to give your other minions +2/+2" as current wording would imply that you would get the effect even if you dont have a friendly murloc to destroy. An evocative card for a warlock murloc.
@Hordaki - Not too much to say here, I think this is a clean design. that helps power murloc-hungry decks.
@Wailor - I agree that chumsayer might be too polarizing in its current form. Holyfin looks good, I would run with that idea.
@AeroJulwin - Agreed on the name change, something along the lines of "{Murloc Tribe Name} Necromancer" would work well. I think specifying the type of undead (ghost, skeleton, zombie etc.) instead of saying "undead" would also make sense - see Grim Necromancer who summons specifically skeletons. Balance-wise, 3 mana 1/4 might be too slow for current design trends, you dont often have the minions to throw away for this, possibly throw an extra stat point its way?
@Lundy - I think the Blindlight Broodmother is the right direction - murlocs running away and pulling a bunch more is a time honored tradition in WoW. Personally, I would consider summoning them from your deck rather than randomly, but thats mostly a preference thing. If you're putting this into forged in the Barrens, worth considering reducing the cost slightly and making it a frenzy effect to fit the set mechanics better?
I like the fact that he can be built in different kind decks. Runeterra could definitely use more champions like that.
However he is definitely overtuned, he summon extra units, buff himself and said units and once he levels up which not that hard to do, he pretty much wins the game on his own even other 5 mana champions like Lee Sin and Swain needs other cards to finish the job.
I think that they need to take away the health gain from the Encroaching Mist. So that he wouldn't impossible to kill for regions that don't have access to hard removal.
That's only for some countries. I think I read that anyone who isn't from those countries did that would get banned. Not every country has laws that let you buy individual items from bundles.
I can't say that I share this feeling, in the previous meta an Azir/Irelia player could misplay all the time and still beat you because that deck was just that busted. That made playing that game a very frustrating experience for me and after a while I just decided to stop playing until the balance patch got released.
Now I can beat a meta deck as long as I play better than opposition. Which feels pretty great.
Also I wouldn't say that there is no "Top Dogs" or that "nearly any deck is goodknow" but I do understand why you might feel that way. The ladder is full of people who just netdeck the meta without taking time to properly learn how to play the decks in question but once you get to high Elo and you start facing people who know what their doing your gonna see the difference in power between meta and non-meta decks.
I think I would say that Viego is pretty good as of now. Reminds me when Aurelion Sol came out where leveling him up would end the game but this happens a lot faster. I do like the fact that they pushed him as strong instead of weak. I don't really want another case of Taliyah, Zilean or Malphite where they are weak and since they don't have enough sample sizes due to low play rates, it becomes harder to see what cards to buff. I think that they are probably going to nerf him or at least his support cards because I do think that he levels up a bit too quickly and he has a tad bit too much stats. I'm predicting that he's going to be nerfed to 6 Mana but honestly I'm not even sure if that's going to change much.
I mean I tend to think that Viego is too strong but for some reason the community appears to see things differently. Maybe they are missing something, or more likely than that, maybe we are. That said I do think that the fact that he usually comes down as a 5 mana 6/5 or even 7/6 makes it so that you're really not risking much in playing him ever. Worst case he requires some insane amount of removal to keep him from steam rolling the opponent and best case he...well he steam rolls the opponent with endless pressure and a win condition if he sticks around long enough to level.
As a note though they usually make these new champions too strong on release...I just think Viego is more blatantly obvious in his being over tuned since he rarely even comes into play with the stat line they designed him with.
I’ve noticed this for myself as a player, and I’m curious if anyone else feels the same way. The super-villain Syndrome once said, “With everyone super, no one will be.” It seems to me like that has almost happened here in LoR.
What I mean by this is we are currently sitting in a pretty balance meta. You can use a huge variety of decks now to laser through the rankings.
My problem is, with no predominant decks that are the “Top Dog” to take down, there isn’t as much satisfaction in a victory. My decks don’t feel special, because nearly any deck is good right now.
It’s a weird paradox. It sucks fighting a boss who you know you will lose too. But it also sucks when there isn’t really any boss at all.
These are just my musing’s. I’d be curious to hear if you have noticed the same thing.
Very seldom have we seen a situation where a champion can essentially be jammed into a variety of lists and have them be statistically competitive if not amazing.
Right now on mobalytics you'll see 4 different lists of similar viability
- shadow demacia
- shadow Ionia
- shadow freijord
- momo shadow
All of which perform essentially the same, suggesting that A Viego is so strong that he doesn't need much deck support B he is so strong his support cards don't matter.
Just 3 drop plus hydra, plus glimpse, and away we go.
I really like the idea that legends is a game where cards have to be built around.
But given the fact that Viego is both a she who wanders, and a better kindred, suggests that maybe we add more support for him while narrowing down exactly what kind of card he's supposed to be.
Is he a finisher is he a controller, or is he simple a bomb that does everything? Cuz thats what he is right now.
Not to mention the token generation makes him function similar to Elise or heckarim.
So 3 champions in one body, and the only champion who's spell functions as a better vengeance.
It has been a while since the last Arena Impact thread here on out of cards. The last one dates back to the Ashes of Outland card reveal and it had only two people rating cards and it didn't get a lot of response. To be frank, I believe the thread went by mostly unnoticed to me as well. Still, I always enjoy reading such threads and I feel a bit sad that there wasn't such a thread for recent expansions. To hopefully prevent this from happening this time around I decided to raise some attention, hence this thread.
Arena is my main mode, been on the leaderboard once, and I'm willing to rate cards for Arena completely voluntary. Would people be interested in an Arena Impact thread for United in Stormwind? Would anyone else be willing to rate cards for Arena format specifically? I'm willing to do this on my own if I have to, but of course, it's a lot more fun if more people are involved. Personally, I don't care if you're staff here on OoC nor if you're an experienced Arena player or not, but I'm no staff member either so if any staff member can comment on this that would be nice.
Also, if you're not willing to put in the time to rate cards for the Arena format specifically, but would like to see such a thread a comment would be much appreciated as well.
Tl;dr: My goal here is to gather some Arena enthusiasts, both rating and reading, in order to have some fun while rating cards and shine some light on Arena. The format could use some attention.
Tirion Forgrgl: He puts his fish in the Light. Thought about making a new weapon like Scalebringer using the Scales of Justice artwork and giving it an effect like Ashbringer. Made something else as this is too close to the original. Alternatively, thought about reducing all the stats in half (4-cost 3/3, Deathrattle: Equip a 3/2 Scales of Justice)
Blindlight Broodmother: Now, these numbers are very preliminary and many of them would need to be fine tuned for sure. Simple design that would make Murlocs sticky enough in Shaman that they could use some of the new Murloc support they received recently.
Originally wanted to use the same art linkblade used, but I don't think two cards with the same art would be a good idea...
I imagine there being separate tokens for each minion type as well as one for no minion type and one for all minion types.
Although I don't expect it to be a great card outside of Murloc decks, it could also be used for stuff like Beasts and Demons(Imps) or just Token/Zoo decks in general.
I realize using a name for a non-legendary minion is unusual, so this might be a placeholder. Suggestions are welcome.
Two cards I had in my gallery, slightly modified for balance.
I like Chumsayer best (mostly because I love callbacks and bad puns), but I wonder if its effect is kinda dangerous, since if your opponent doesn't have removal, it's GG. Maybe if I rise the cost (and the Attack) it won't be too bad?
Last week got busy and I forgot to submit my card. Rip. Anyway!
This week I decided to come up with a mechanic to interact with Tradeable cards, but I'm still a little unsure as to whether this is the best way to phrase the text.
I want this for Ragnaros and the Satanic Righteous Uther, which looks totally bad ass, but I'm passing. The Rag voice lines are super sweet, though, insect...
Actually for who didnt knew that... We have how to purchase every hero separated for a lower price on website, we dont need to purchase all of them if we dont want.
Thought about making it an Epic, but that meant you could play one, then destroy the first copy with the second copy to double-up on the buff with minimal damage to your board. Seemed too good. I did not specify the buff had to be Murlocs-only because I wanted Menagerie Warlock to have a chance at Marrgl as well.
Is Viego Too Universally Good?
Yeah it really depends on your philosophy, Zillian, Malphite, and Thaliyah are amazingly well designed cards, and I'll throw Eko in there...but yes they are bad.
The most optimized Eko list has a 40% winrate when piloted by the best players.
But is the solution for releasing a new champions just to make it universally good at everything so it does see play?
Seems like Riot was maybe getting frustrated and thought it better just to overtune and nerf later.
Card Advantage Doesn't Matter - Unless It Does
Azir Irelia really shouldn't have card advantage on you...I'm trying to think like even pirate aggro should at least trade 1 for 1 with them.
They are a tempo deck, they throw out free units, but their hand will usually be down to 1 and at that point they either win or they dont
Your Favorite Hero Portrait to BM With
This is a really well-done post. I wish I could upvote it more.
Today is Your Last Chance to Buy the Eternal Flame Bundle With the Awesome Ragnaros Shaman Hero Skin
Ohhh that's why its available for me and not for some people. Im from Brazil, guess we got 'lucky' here :)
Finfested Waters - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
One of Hagatha's vile creations - You might try to kill The Wereloc but will quickly find that its curse has spread to others.
Thoughts on whether this should transform any minion, or specifically murlocs?
Feedback:
@Demonxz95 - This is an interesting idea for a card, but perhaps an unexciting one. If you've seen Mark Rosewater's talk on 20 lessons from MTG (highly recommend watching), he talks a bit about this kind of design being interesting for the designer, but falling flat with players due to the differences in "Intellectual" stimulation vs "Emotional" stimulation. At least personally I don't have that strong emotional response to the card.
@linkblade91 - Go ahead and make it an epic. We have Nofin Can Stop Us that sees little play and is effectively the same +2/+2 effect at a similar cost. I think the cost of sacrificing a minion is larger than you might think. I think for wording you may have to have "Destroy a friendly murloc to give your other minions +2/+2" as current wording would imply that you would get the effect even if you dont have a friendly murloc to destroy. An evocative card for a warlock murloc.
@Hordaki - Not too much to say here, I think this is a clean design. that helps power murloc-hungry decks.
@Wailor - I agree that chumsayer might be too polarizing in its current form. Holyfin looks good, I would run with that idea.
@AeroJulwin - Agreed on the name change, something along the lines of "{Murloc Tribe Name} Necromancer" would work well. I think specifying the type of undead (ghost, skeleton, zombie etc.) instead of saying "undead" would also make sense - see Grim Necromancer who summons specifically skeletons. Balance-wise, 3 mana 1/4 might be too slow for current design trends, you dont often have the minions to throw away for this, possibly throw an extra stat point its way?
@Lundy - I think the Blindlight Broodmother is the right direction - murlocs running away and pulling a bunch more is a time honored tradition in WoW. Personally, I would consider summoning them from your deck rather than randomly, but thats mostly a preference thing. If you're putting this into forged in the Barrens, worth considering reducing the cost slightly and making it a frenzy effect to fit the set mechanics better?
Card Advantage Doesn't Matter - Unless It Does
Card advantage is for decks that want to be efficient and win.
Azir decks are not control. And the deck vomits card advantage. Crawling Sensation is not a control card.
Today is Your Last Chance to Buy the Eternal Flame Bundle With the Awesome Ragnaros Shaman Hero Skin
I would buy it, if they threw some packs with it, otherwise no value at all)
Is Viego Too Universally Good?
I like the fact that he can be built in different kind decks. Runeterra could definitely use more champions like that.
However he is definitely overtuned, he summon extra units, buff himself and said units and once he levels up which not that hard to do, he pretty much wins the game on his own even other 5 mana champions like Lee Sin and Swain needs other cards to finish the job.
I think that they need to take away the health gain from the Encroaching Mist. So that he wouldn't impossible to kill for regions that don't have access to hard removal.
Today is Your Last Chance to Buy the Eternal Flame Bundle With the Awesome Ragnaros Shaman Hero Skin
That's only for some countries. I think I read that anyone who isn't from those countries did that would get banned. Not every country has laws that let you buy individual items from bundles.
The Syndrome Effect
I can't say that I share this feeling, in the previous meta an Azir/Irelia player could misplay all the time and still beat you because that deck was just that busted. That made playing that game a very frustrating experience for me and after a while I just decided to stop playing until the balance patch got released.
Now I can beat a meta deck as long as I play better than opposition. Which feels pretty great.
Also I wouldn't say that there is no "Top Dogs" or that "nearly any deck is goodknow" but I do understand why you might feel that way. The ladder is full of people who just netdeck the meta without taking time to properly learn how to play the decks in question but once you get to high Elo and you start facing people who know what their doing your gonna see the difference in power between meta and non-meta decks.
The Syndrome Effect
This is exactly why I was skeptical when the devs said they wanted to make everything balanced.
Is Viego Too Universally Good?
I think I would say that Viego is pretty good as of now. Reminds me when Aurelion Sol came out where leveling him up would end the game but this happens a lot faster. I do like the fact that they pushed him as strong instead of weak. I don't really want another case of Taliyah, Zilean or Malphite where they are weak and since they don't have enough sample sizes due to low play rates, it becomes harder to see what cards to buff. I think that they are probably going to nerf him or at least his support cards because I do think that he levels up a bit too quickly and he has a tad bit too much stats. I'm predicting that he's going to be nerfed to 6 Mana but honestly I'm not even sure if that's going to change much.
Is Viego Too Universally Good?
I mean I tend to think that Viego is too strong but for some reason the community appears to see things differently. Maybe they are missing something, or more likely than that, maybe we are. That said I do think that the fact that he usually comes down as a 5 mana 6/5 or even 7/6 makes it so that you're really not risking much in playing him ever. Worst case he requires some insane amount of removal to keep him from steam rolling the opponent and best case he...well he steam rolls the opponent with endless pressure and a win condition if he sticks around long enough to level.
As a note though they usually make these new champions too strong on release...I just think Viego is more blatantly obvious in his being over tuned since he rarely even comes into play with the stat line they designed him with.
The Syndrome Effect
I’ve noticed this for myself as a player, and I’m curious if anyone else feels the same way. The super-villain Syndrome once said, “With everyone super, no one will be.” It seems to me like that has almost happened here in LoR.
What I mean by this is we are currently sitting in a pretty balance meta. You can use a huge variety of decks now to laser through the rankings.
My problem is, with no predominant decks that are the “Top Dog” to take down, there isn’t as much satisfaction in a victory. My decks don’t feel special, because nearly any deck is good right now.
It’s a weird paradox. It sucks fighting a boss who you know you will lose too. But it also sucks when there isn’t really any boss at all.
These are just my musing’s. I’d be curious to hear if you have noticed the same thing.
Is Viego Too Universally Good?
Very seldom have we seen a situation where a champion can essentially be jammed into a variety of lists and have them be statistically competitive if not amazing.
Right now on mobalytics you'll see 4 different lists of similar viability
- shadow demacia
- shadow Ionia
- shadow freijord
- momo shadow
All of which perform essentially the same, suggesting that A Viego is so strong that he doesn't need much deck support B he is so strong his support cards don't matter.
Just 3 drop plus hydra, plus glimpse, and away we go.
I really like the idea that legends is a game where cards have to be built around.
But given the fact that Viego is both a she who wanders, and a better kindred, suggests that maybe we add more support for him while narrowing down exactly what kind of card he's supposed to be.
Is he a finisher is he a controller, or is he simple a bomb that does everything? Cuz thats what he is right now.
Not to mention the token generation makes him function similar to Elise or heckarim.
So 3 champions in one body, and the only champion who's spell functions as a better vengeance.
New Arena Impact thread?
It has been a while since the last Arena Impact thread here on out of cards. The last one dates back to the Ashes of Outland card reveal and it had only two people rating cards and it didn't get a lot of response. To be frank, I believe the thread went by mostly unnoticed to me as well. Still, I always enjoy reading such threads and I feel a bit sad that there wasn't such a thread for recent expansions. To hopefully prevent this from happening this time around I decided to raise some attention, hence this thread.
Arena is my main mode, been on the leaderboard once, and I'm willing to rate cards for Arena completely voluntary. Would people be interested in an Arena Impact thread for United in Stormwind? Would anyone else be willing to rate cards for Arena format specifically? I'm willing to do this on my own if I have to, but of course, it's a lot more fun if more people are involved. Personally, I don't care if you're staff here on OoC nor if you're an experienced Arena player or not, but I'm no staff member either so if any staff member can comment on this that would be nice.
Also, if you're not willing to put in the time to rate cards for the Arena format specifically, but would like to see such a thread a comment would be much appreciated as well.
Tl;dr: My goal here is to gather some Arena enthusiasts, both rating and reading, in order to have some fun while rating cards and shine some light on Arena. The format could use some attention.
Finfested Waters - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Tirion Forgrgl: He puts his fish in the Light. Thought about making a new weapon like Scalebringer using the Scales of Justice artwork and giving it an effect like Ashbringer. Made something else as this is too close to the original. Alternatively, thought about reducing all the stats in half (4-cost 3/3, Deathrattle: Equip a 3/2 Scales of Justice)
Blindlight Broodmother: Now, these numbers are very preliminary and many of them would need to be fine tuned for sure. Simple design that would make Murlocs sticky enough in Shaman that they could use some of the new Murloc support they received recently.
Finfested Waters - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Originally wanted to use the same art linkblade used, but I don't think two cards with the same art would be a good idea...
I imagine there being separate tokens for each minion type as well as one for no minion type and one for all minion types.
Although I don't expect it to be a great card outside of Murloc decks, it could also be used for stuff like Beasts and Demons(Imps) or just Token/Zoo decks in general.
I realize using a name for a non-legendary minion is unusual, so this might be a placeholder. Suggestions are welcome.
Finfested Waters - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Two cards I had in my gallery, slightly modified for balance.
I like Chumsayer best (mostly because I love callbacks and bad puns), but I wonder if its effect is kinda dangerous, since if your opponent doesn't have removal, it's GG. Maybe if I rise the cost (and the Attack) it won't be too bad?
Finfested Waters - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Last week got busy and I forgot to submit my card. Rip. Anyway!
This week I decided to come up with a mechanic to interact with Tradeable cards, but I'm still a little unsure as to whether this is the best way to phrase the text.
Today is Your Last Chance to Buy the Eternal Flame Bundle With the Awesome Ragnaros Shaman Hero Skin
I want this for Ragnaros and the Satanic Righteous Uther, which looks totally bad ass, but I'm passing. The Rag voice lines are super sweet, though, insect...
Today is Your Last Chance to Buy the Eternal Flame Bundle With the Awesome Ragnaros Shaman Hero Skin
Finfested Waters - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Thought about making it an Epic, but that meant you could play one, then destroy the first copy with the second copy to double-up on the buff with minimal damage to your board. Seemed too good. I did not specify the buff had to be Murlocs-only because I wanted Menagerie Warlock to have a chance at Marrgl as well.
Ride And Die - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
*gives anchorm4n the evil eye* ...Congratulations, ya bastard lol
Today is Your Last Chance to Buy the Eternal Flame Bundle With the Awesome Ragnaros Shaman Hero Skin
yeah, I've no use for the Rexxar or Tiron one so can't justify buy it.