I'm not a huge fan on nerfing flinger, is the same problem with edwin, is not the card, is the support that he have in this current set, Lunacy suffers from the same problem, was a meme card but the pool of spells is small compared to before rotation. Like ppl said before, maybe they will revert when lunacy rotates.
I know that these cards are powerful and I think devs should look closly at them. IF paladin/mage continue to opress the meta I think those might be great targets for nerfs. I would still rather have it nerfed slowly in a 2 week cycle rather than bringing down whatever stands out right now as history has shown us even one card nerf can be enough for meta to shift.
As for mage, as someone who used to play mage a lot, the biggest downside of the deck was consistency and catching up without pulling some BIG RANDOM BS from Yogg box or poof!ing board with Reno. If Lunacy is going to be too slow, no-minion mage might have a bigger problem pulling multiple tempo swings and even Pot of Greed might not help the lack of big, endgame high value cards that lunacy provides. I think actual outcome will be somewhere in the middle between broken and helpless - just as the deck used to be, just a little less random and actually viable.
I think current policy of more frequent, yet a bit more subtle approach to nerfs is much better than what we had in the past and I believe there is a light at the end of a tunnel, it just might not look like everyone is expecting it to be.
Pen Flinger will still be a strong card due to the "Evasive" minions, avoiding costly trades, and certainly to wear down a minion to do a good trade.
Deck of Lunacy will still be used, although substantially slowed the F-down. The fact that it could fire off first turn was kinda stupid. Making it slower by a couple of turns was necessary.
Sword of the Fallen we all called this nerf. This was WAY too solid at 3 durability. It will still be used pretty heavily given that it thins your deck efficiently. AND with a lot of secret synergy going on with Paladin right now, it is still a viable card to be used.
The watchpost nerfs will make them much more killable. They will probably still be used, but keeping them on the board for numerous turns is not as likely.
Steward of Time nerf will be noticeable, I dont think many ppl use it for the +1/+1, but rather the raw stats you can get from a Tier 2 minion. A 3/3 is pathetic, lots of stuff have 3-Attack, it could usually trade with two things, now it will not do that as often.
the problem I see is that the current meta is very limited overall. You have the two best classes and then everyone else hoping to queue into something else.
This essentially will still happen, the only thing that changes is that Paladin and MAge are weaker to their intended counters (Control and Aggro respectively), which doesn't account for the fact that those counters are diametrically opposed and there is no deck that can take on both of them.
Essentially you either pick a deck to beat Mage or to beat Paladin and then you hope that the 50/50 is in your favour,
I'm fearing that the best way to play ladder will still be to just pick Mage or Paladin because it's better odds than gambling on the matchup (or playing some tier 3 deck that gets steamrolled by both of them).
In order for the meta to be acceptable we'd need a third deck that beats both Mage and Paladin consistently but has other bad matchups.
A little preemptive. Winrates for watch posts were concerning, but they weren't a huge problem because Spell Mage doesn't play minions, and Secret Paladin can usually clear them or ignore them.
i get that im the minority here but damn man that pen flinger nerf is really upsetting. probably my favorite card they released last year, i really wish they could've found a better way to deal with it. the high apm turns with libram paladin were always my favorite part of the deck, and the recent miracle rogue lists using it have been really fun. every other nerf is fine, but man this one really makes the game a lot less fun for me, and i hope im not entirely alone.
well, it's not really a "buff" as much as it's a "won't really matter" nerf for Libram Paladin.
It basically only targets Secret Paladin and their ability to snowball whereas Libram only used it for draw anyways and usually wouldn't get full value out of both Swords.
Oh wow I didn't think they'd actually nerf the Watch Posts already. They made it sound like they were only watching them for now, but I'm happy to not have to see them in every single deck.
Pen flinger nerf will kill it in Rogue (thank god), but I fear it will leave Paladin unchanged. They mostly just play them for the insane tempo swings anyways (although I suppose it's neat that you no longer have to eat 8 damage every turn while they keep spamming giant recruits.
Sword of the Fallen nerf is pretty significant, but I doubt it will be enough to slow down Libram Paladin, that deck doesn't rely on draw as much as it just steamrolls you from turn 1 on.
Pretty sure Deck of Lunacy nerf does nothing overall. Sure, it's slower and you can't win games starting form turn 2....but the deck itself is still incredibly powerful and Lunacy is now enough to just outvalue slower decks.
Jandice Nerf seems good enough. Making her summon 4-drops would make her unplayable because many of those are just hot garbage. At this point she can't just lock down the game when coined so that's good.
Honestly I'm not all that happy with the nerfs because I feel like the top meta decks will keep being top meta decks, even if they are weaker, while everyone else still has to come to terms with the fact that they can'T beat both Mage and Paladin at the same time.
Probably gonna have another set of nerfs in two weeks...or at least I hope so.
Meta decks beign still the top after nerfs is Fine, aslogn arent tier 0 its fine. a deck shoukdnt be nerfed/gutted JUST because its tier 1(cause else may as well keep nerfing evrything that sees play forever). and goal of nerfs is to bring ti in line NOT destroy it forever(ala warsong or buzzard style nerfs)
Not nerfing Refreshing Spring Water is insanity. The ridiculous value of draw 2 cards for 0 has caused me far more anger than Lunacy.
I would have liked the heal+summon 8/8 Libram to lose taunt too but you can't have everything.
I dont see them ever removing the taunt from the libram IF anythign theyd nerf its stats or the divin shield. Its meant to be defensive card which is why the summon has taunt. Removing that would change the purpose of the card
I would have put Lunacy at 5-mana. Just kill it for good. No Minion Mage is likely to still be very strong after this, and I think you'd still run Deck of Lunacy even if you hold off on playing it until the late-game. Refreshing Spring Water needs to be hit.
Watchtower, Pen Flinger, and Jandice nerfs are very good and needed, but they need to hit Paladin harder. Sword of the Fallen is still an S-tier card with 2-durability. They need a bigger hit on their early game. First Day of School still has a 70%+ Mulligan WR in every kind of deck. Just make it a 1-mana card already, even if that probably kills it. Aldor Attendant should be reverted to a 2-drop, and Aldor Peacekeeper should probably be a 4/5. I wouldn't even mind seeing Libram of Justice go back to 6-mana. Right now the deck is simply too versatile at every stage of the game.
NO aldor shouldnt be reverted, not shoudl peacekeeper be nerfed.
I hear you, but I think the data is overwhelming on First Day of School even if the card doesn't "feel bad" compared to others. Ditto for Aldor Attendant. Knight of Anointment is a fantastic turn-1 play. They don't need 3 excellent turn-1 choices. Right now their very early game is overwhelmingly consistent and powerful.
As for No Minion Mage, it's very good right now, and I think it's still very good if Refreshing Spring Water refreshes (1) for each spell drawn. That makes it strictly better than Arcane Intellect in that archetype which is the real purpose of the card. 0-mana draw 2 is just stupid, let alone the cases when it's even better than that via Incanter's Flow.
I just don't think it'll be enough to really fix the meta in such a way that other classes will be equally viable.
Like...what reason is there to stop playing Paladin or Mage? Libram Paladin still craps on just about every other deck in the game with the only downside being that it can no longer use Pen Flinger for reach. The Sword nerf is almost an indirect buff because it means you can run a smaller secret package (6 total) and still get full value from both swords most of the time.
Meanwhile Mage can easily just run Lunacy as backup because the regular gameplan of Spell Mage is so strong that it only loses to aggro which will get held at bay by the Paladins.
The "only" downside of pen flinger being used for reach in libram paladin is a huge thing, since it removes any burst damage and a win condition for paladin. Also, your logic on the sword nerf being a buff makes no sense.
I think that a nerf should bring card's power level back to where it's supposed to be, not kill the card - just because a card is too good now it shouldn't be made unplayable later.
No minion mage was my favourite deck up until Barrens - wacky, interesting, and borderline Tier 3. It was kinda fun to play and wasn't overwhelming for the opponent. Right now it's oppresive and I hope they nerf it to the point where it is actually a fair deck.
What I think you don't realise is how significant Pen Flingers are for paladin and how that might impact the deck. Even if that doesn't hit that hard, it might create enough space for other decks to emerge and create diverse meta without killing a class. If not, hey, there can be another round of nerfs soon.
Your presented solution for paladin is "kill every good card for the class". I understand your hate for paladin right now, but every class has some better, outstanding cards, but only some see play, even if those are really good on paper. Why? Because meta is not in a vacuum and those cards depend on other cards and what is popular at that time. Why nuke pally if few minor nerfs might do the trick? Devs have much more data on cards winrate and emerging archetypes than we do and they decided that this is enough for now.
Besides, I don't think there is anything wrong with no-minion mage and libram palladin to still be Tier 1 decks. I just think they shouldn't be Tier 0 decks that opress meta. Good decks should be allowed to exist as long as there is enough space that ladder isn't comprised of only 2 classes.
All of that said, f**k lunacy mage as a top tier deck, I think hearthstone has much more to offer than that :P
Yea but the big problem is the 1 drop discounter. I don't care about the 5 cost one. Aldor Attendant just provides too good of an opening curve and stats. They honestly just need to stop printing 1/3 1-drops for ALL classes. 1 Drops used to indicate you were aggro/midrange decks, as control couldn't afford to run 1 drops due to deck space. Not to mention Paladin's First Day of School...
If I had to target 2 cards it would be paladin's early game. Make Hand of Adal cost 3. Make Aldor Attendant be a 1/2.
Deck of Lunacy: Wow this is a HARSH nerf, add this to the "cards that will 100% get reverted when they rotate next year" list. I was personally hoping they would change it so it would give you both standard and WILD cards instead, which would have made the deck a lot less reliable AND also double down on the fun aspect of the card. But even at 4 mana, i don't think the Lunacy mage deck will be killed off. After all, Spell mage is really good deck even without Deck of Lunacy. I think Deck of Lunacy mage will be a bit weaker to aggro now, but will still be solid against control decks.
Pen Flinger: FINALLY! I have hoped this nerf would happen for a LONG time. This completely destroys Pen Flingers viablilty in FACE decks, and it nerfs Raza Priest in Wild. Libram paladin (The not Pure version) will still use Pen Flinger considering they often rather use it to clear boards alongside their free librams. Great change, doesn't kill the card and still makes it viable.
Sword of the Fallen: This needed to get nerfed, and i'm happy to see that the "mana cheat" part is gone. Sword of the Fallen was way too good, and it is hopefully more balanced.
Jandice Barov: Okay i knew she was a possible nerf target, but i'm still kinda sad she got hit by the nerf. Probably will be in the "nerfs to revert during the next rotation" list. The problem with her was that she was too good after rotation, and at 6 mana she is still very playable. The problem with Jandice Barov was the she was too good in rogue with cards like Shadowstep, and the 5 cost pool was too good. Kinda like this nerf for now, but i'm not dusting my Golden Jandice Barov.
Far Watch Post and Mor'shan Watch Post: Kinda expectable. Watch posts were REALLY GOOD, and super hard to remove sometimes. But even after this nerf their still really good because their effects. The only change is that their slightly easier to remove, which is good because a coined out Far Watch Post or a turn 2 Far Watch Post was extremely hard to get rid off. And Mor'shan Watch Post was really hard to get rid off even later into the game. Now most early removal spells can actually deal with them. Very good change for the health of the game. Let's just hope that these changes don't allow (hyper) aggro to become too good again, i really don't want to see more FACEstone...
OH and it seems like Zeddys nerf predictions aged like fine wine, considering he was correct on all nerf targets AND the exact nerfs.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
I'm not a huge fan on nerfing flinger, is the same problem with edwin, is not the card, is the support that he have in this current set, Lunacy suffers from the same problem, was a meme card but the pool of spells is small compared to before rotation. Like ppl said before, maybe they will revert when lunacy rotates.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
I know that these cards are powerful and I think devs should look closly at them. IF paladin/mage continue to opress the meta I think those might be great targets for nerfs. I would still rather have it nerfed slowly in a 2 week cycle rather than bringing down whatever stands out right now as history has shown us even one card nerf can be enough for meta to shift.
As for mage, as someone who used to play mage a lot, the biggest downside of the deck was consistency and catching up without pulling some BIG RANDOM BS from Yogg box or poof!ing board with Reno. If Lunacy is going to be too slow, no-minion mage might have a bigger problem pulling multiple tempo swings and even Pot of Greed might not help the lack of big, endgame high value cards that lunacy provides. I think actual outcome will be somewhere in the middle between broken and helpless - just as the deck used to be, just a little less random and actually viable.
I think current policy of more frequent, yet a bit more subtle approach to nerfs is much better than what we had in the past and I believe there is a light at the end of a tunnel, it just might not look like everyone is expecting it to be.
Is Hearthstone's Sir Annoy-O Paladin Hero Skin Making a Return Soon?
I wonder what are the Crossroads bundle..
Is Hearthstone's Sir Annoy-O Paladin Hero Skin Making a Return Soon?
I was expecting/hping more for alleria/magni to return(after medivh came back) then sir anoya(if he does come back tha tis)
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
Pen Flinger will still be a strong card due to the "Evasive" minions, avoiding costly trades, and certainly to wear down a minion to do a good trade.
Deck of Lunacy will still be used, although substantially slowed the F-down. The fact that it could fire off first turn was kinda stupid. Making it slower by a couple of turns was necessary.
Sword of the Fallen we all called this nerf. This was WAY too solid at 3 durability. It will still be used pretty heavily given that it thins your deck efficiently. AND with a lot of secret synergy going on with Paladin right now, it is still a viable card to be used.
The watchpost nerfs will make them much more killable. They will probably still be used, but keeping them on the board for numerous turns is not as likely.
Queen Wagtoggle and Captain Hooktusk Are Returning to Hearthstone's Battlegrounds + Beast, Dragon, and Elemental Balance Updates
Steward of Time nerf will be noticeable, I dont think many ppl use it for the +1/+1, but rather the raw stats you can get from a Tier 2 minion. A 3/3 is pathetic, lots of stuff have 3-Attack, it could usually trade with two things, now it will not do that as often.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
the problem I see is that the current meta is very limited overall. You have the two best classes and then everyone else hoping to queue into something else.
This essentially will still happen, the only thing that changes is that Paladin and MAge are weaker to their intended counters (Control and Aggro respectively), which doesn't account for the fact that those counters are diametrically opposed and there is no deck that can take on both of them.
Essentially you either pick a deck to beat Mage or to beat Paladin and then you hope that the 50/50 is in your favour,
I'm fearing that the best way to play ladder will still be to just pick Mage or Paladin because it's better odds than gambling on the matchup (or playing some tier 3 deck that gets steamrolled by both of them).
In order for the meta to be acceptable we'd need a third deck that beats both Mage and Paladin consistently but has other bad matchups.
Alternate Card Art Finally in Hearthstone? Future Diamond Cards Might Get Special Treatment
Sure, but the point of selling cosmetics is so they are appealing to the customer, they did not hit the mark, in my case anyway.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
A little preemptive. Winrates for watch posts were concerning, but they weren't a huge problem because Spell Mage doesn't play minions, and Secret Paladin can usually clear them or ignore them.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
i get that im the minority here but damn man that pen flinger nerf is really upsetting. probably my favorite card they released last year, i really wish they could've found a better way to deal with it. the high apm turns with libram paladin were always my favorite part of the deck, and the recent miracle rogue lists using it have been really fun. every other nerf is fine, but man this one really makes the game a lot less fun for me, and i hope im not entirely alone.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
well, it's not really a "buff" as much as it's a "won't really matter" nerf for Libram Paladin.
It basically only targets Secret Paladin and their ability to snowball whereas Libram only used it for draw anyways and usually wouldn't get full value out of both Swords.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
Meta decks beign still the top after nerfs is Fine, aslogn arent tier 0 its fine. a deck shoukdnt be nerfed/gutted JUST because its tier 1(cause else may as well keep nerfing evrything that sees play forever). and goal of nerfs is to bring ti in line NOT destroy it forever(ala warsong or buzzard style nerfs)
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
I dont see them ever removing the taunt from the libram IF anythign theyd nerf its stats or the divin shield. Its meant to be defensive card which is why the summon has taunt. Removing that would change the purpose of the card
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
Why do you think Crabrider needs a nerf?
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
NO aldor shouldnt be reverted, not shoudl peacekeeper be nerfed.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
I hear you, but I think the data is overwhelming on First Day of School even if the card doesn't "feel bad" compared to others. Ditto for Aldor Attendant. Knight of Anointment is a fantastic turn-1 play. They don't need 3 excellent turn-1 choices. Right now their very early game is overwhelmingly consistent and powerful.
As for No Minion Mage, it's very good right now, and I think it's still very good if Refreshing Spring Water refreshes (1) for each spell drawn. That makes it strictly better than Arcane Intellect in that archetype which is the real purpose of the card. 0-mana draw 2 is just stupid, let alone the cases when it's even better than that via Incanter's Flow.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
The "only" downside of pen flinger being used for reach in libram paladin is a huge thing, since it removes any burst damage and a win condition for paladin. Also, your logic on the sword nerf being a buff makes no sense.
drop on youtube?
48 hours have passed but I still haven't received the two packs... :-)
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
Well, we'll see in about two weeks whether they agree with you.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
I think that a nerf should bring card's power level back to where it's supposed to be, not kill the card - just because a card is too good now it shouldn't be made unplayable later.
No minion mage was my favourite deck up until Barrens - wacky, interesting, and borderline Tier 3. It was kinda fun to play and wasn't overwhelming for the opponent. Right now it's oppresive and I hope they nerf it to the point where it is actually a fair deck.
What I think you don't realise is how significant Pen Flingers are for paladin and how that might impact the deck. Even if that doesn't hit that hard, it might create enough space for other decks to emerge and create diverse meta without killing a class. If not, hey, there can be another round of nerfs soon.
Your presented solution for paladin is "kill every good card for the class". I understand your hate for paladin right now, but every class has some better, outstanding cards, but only some see play, even if those are really good on paper. Why? Because meta is not in a vacuum and those cards depend on other cards and what is popular at that time. Why nuke pally if few minor nerfs might do the trick? Devs have much more data on cards winrate and emerging archetypes than we do and they decided that this is enough for now.
Besides, I don't think there is anything wrong with no-minion mage and libram palladin to still be Tier 1 decks. I just think they shouldn't be Tier 0 decks that opress meta. Good decks should be allowed to exist as long as there is enough space that ladder isn't comprised of only 2 classes.
All of that said, f**k lunacy mage as a top tier deck, I think hearthstone has much more to offer than that :P
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
Yea but the big problem is the 1 drop discounter. I don't care about the 5 cost one. Aldor Attendant just provides too good of an opening curve and stats. They honestly just need to stop printing 1/3 1-drops for ALL classes. 1 Drops used to indicate you were aggro/midrange decks, as control couldn't afford to run 1 drops due to deck space. Not to mention Paladin's First Day of School...
If I had to target 2 cards it would be paladin's early game. Make Hand of Adal cost 3. Make Aldor Attendant be a 1/2.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
Finally the nerf hammer has fallen on Flinger, this machinegun "combo" was as dumb as easy to abuse of.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
Deck of Lunacy: Wow this is a HARSH nerf, add this to the "cards that will 100% get reverted when they rotate next year" list. I was personally hoping they would change it so it would give you both standard and WILD cards instead, which would have made the deck a lot less reliable AND also double down on the fun aspect of the card. But even at 4 mana, i don't think the Lunacy mage deck will be killed off. After all, Spell mage is really good deck even without Deck of Lunacy. I think Deck of Lunacy mage will be a bit weaker to aggro now, but will still be solid against control decks.
Pen Flinger: FINALLY! I have hoped this nerf would happen for a LONG time. This completely destroys Pen Flingers viablilty in FACE decks, and it nerfs Raza Priest in Wild. Libram paladin (The not Pure version) will still use Pen Flinger considering they often rather use it to clear boards alongside their free librams. Great change, doesn't kill the card and still makes it viable.
Sword of the Fallen: This needed to get nerfed, and i'm happy to see that the "mana cheat" part is gone. Sword of the Fallen was way too good, and it is hopefully more balanced.
Jandice Barov: Okay i knew she was a possible nerf target, but i'm still kinda sad she got hit by the nerf. Probably will be in the "nerfs to revert during the next rotation" list. The problem with her was that she was too good after rotation, and at 6 mana she is still very playable. The problem with Jandice Barov was the she was too good in rogue with cards like Shadowstep, and the 5 cost pool was too good. Kinda like this nerf for now, but i'm not dusting my Golden Jandice Barov.
Far Watch Post and Mor'shan Watch Post: Kinda expectable. Watch posts were REALLY GOOD, and super hard to remove sometimes. But even after this nerf their still really good because their effects. The only change is that their slightly easier to remove, which is good because a coined out Far Watch Post or a turn 2 Far Watch Post was extremely hard to get rid off. And Mor'shan Watch Post was really hard to get rid off even later into the game. Now most early removal spells can actually deal with them. Very good change for the health of the game. Let's just hope that these changes don't allow (hyper) aggro to become too good again, i really don't want to see more FACEstone...
OH and it seems like Zeddys nerf predictions aged like fine wine, considering he was correct on all nerf targets AND the exact nerfs.
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
Stealth buff to Apexis Blast by getting Jandice out of the 5-cost minion pool! /s
Hearthstone's Pen Flinger Can No Longer Attack Face, Watch Posts Nerfed, and More! Forged in the Barrens Nerfs Arrive Tomorrow
I never had a problem with the watch posts but okay
No I didn't play them myself, before anyone goes and says I'm complaining, I'm just confused :/