The archetype still suffers from card draw and since its early game is so horrendous, nerfing the weapon's attack will go a long way in managing shaman until rotation, when most of the biggest problems of the deck (Desert Hare, Hoard Pillager, Mogu Fleshshaper) rotates away and the archetype loses at least half of its strengths.
In a sane world, that Lightning Bloom nerf would already been in effect. There's really nothing worse than seeing that knuckles come out early and completely tear you apart. In this case it even completely sidesteps its only counter in Kobold Stickyfinger
I'll be honest. The only reason why I'm even for a nerf is because evolve shaman is doing the same shit as giants mage in RoS is doing, and that is to put a tacit requirement to deal with its power card or die. In the latter's case, it was Mountain Giant on 4, and in evolve shaman's case its the knuckles. So every player out here is jamming stickyfingers to such a degree that no weapon with more than 2 durability can be played without severe consequences, and that basically destroys the viability of other decks not on the radar.
Personally I don't really mind evolve shaman, its the same tier 1 deck like most other tier 1 deck before it, and the fact that most of its cards rotate in a few months time makes me really reluctant to nerf anything. But when you do everything right against this deck that plays little to no early game, no board clears, only to find out that they can go from zero board to completely destroying you in a couple of turns, that's when we need to start talking about balance.
If refresh needs less overload though
0 Mana refresh 2 with NO down is what innervae shoudve been and been adecent to pretyt good card.
But fi added overoad 2 to it that makes card terrible, should at most be overload 1. Unless want to kill any use of the card then yeah do it with extra overload even.
Cagematch Custodian is clearly a key part of it, but increasing its cost probably won't change very much since turns 1-4 are pretty passive anyway (unless they have Lightning Bloom). That would also hit the curve into Whack-A-Gnoll Hammer or other 3 mana weapons, seriously nerfing other decks which aren't a problem. Similarly, changing the Pillager would be hitting other decks.
The issue here is not really coming from any one card, but rather how we currently have a critical mass of cards with strong synergy with [Hearthstone Card (Bogspine Knuckles) Not Found]. It will likely resolve itself in April when several key pieces rotate out, and there is an argument for leaving things alone because of that. But people won't want the meta to be that stale for 3 months, and the only fair way to hit the deck is to hit a card that won't cause collateral damage elsewhere, which in this case probably means the Knuckles.
Here's a hot take: what if Dread Corsair was targeted? It has previously been a big part of rogue's dominance in RoS (which led to Preparation and Raiding Party getting nerfed), so it's clearly not as safe a card to be evergreen as it often feels. If there is indeed a Classic set overhaul coming up, I'd probably take the Corsair out then. It is probably too fair under normal circumstances to warrant a nerf though; it's not even used in most pirate decks for example, and few of those aren't also weapon-based.
Lets NOT nerf the first good card draw shaman has gotten
ANd no dont nerf corsair tis not an issue and is a classic revamp after darkmoon faire so even less reaosn to touch it and youd nerf otther decks aswell. And can nerf the dread corsair inetraction with just nerfing the attack of the weapon.
True, I managed to claw into dumpster legend last season with my deck below using board control and only 1 single Kobold Stickyfinger. Still had a negative winrate against Evolve Shaman though, but I had no problems with the other meta decks out there. Running into shaman was no fun at all, but there was a small pocket where I ran into them less frequently.
You mention incidentally nerfing other decks that aren't the problem... If they are using similar cards then it would impact them. With the change to Raiding Party, that hurt more decks than what was intended. It is part of the change in nerfs. are Boggspine Knuckles a problem, sure. There are a number of wild decks that are floating around using them. With that in mind, if you nerf that card, those other decks get impacted as well. No matter which way you look at it, there is always going to be collateral damage.
Off meta decks aren't necessarily good for laddering, that is what the main meta is. What I did was try to find a way to break down the Evolve Shaman issue... which was board control. If there aren't many things to evolve, then it's power becomes extremely limited. With that in mind, I just started putting in some anti-weapon cards that help my decks perform, or bring more control into the game and killing the board multiple times... Warlock is great at that right now.
I'm reading so much hate for Evolve in general and people are kinda missing the mark on this. I've been playing an off meta deck that is focused on controlling the board and I have NO problems with Evolve Shaman. I get annihilated by pretty much everything else, but that is where the power lies.
For Boggspine Knuckles, there are a number of things out there that deal with this,:
Being able to tutor it out of the deck early and then bring it back is where the issue lies. If Cagematch Custodian has it's cost increased and Hoard Pillager does the same thing as Rummaging Kobold, that would substantially slow the deck since it would then have to pay to re-equip it, effectively slowing the deck.
I'm only responding to your tech deck comment.
As you pointed out yourself, your deck has no problem with Evolve Shaman, but gets destroyed by everything else. How is this a good thing? Forget about climbing the ladder then if you don't want to join them? The culprit shaman deck is clearly out of balance and has completely warped the standard meta. Everyone has to run multiple Kobold Stickyfinger to even have a chance to slow them down enough to get a glimmer of chance for winning the matchup. Team5 is clearly okay with this dumbass deck running rampant for a while, coz this was quite easily predictable.
Yeah, a lot of shaman's problems in recent years have been down to a lack of win conditions. I have lost count of the number of times I have started building a shaman deck and stopped because there's no real pay-off. E.g. I can easily make a deck that will survive for ages, but I have no plan to win the game once I get there. I'm not sure where exactly the problem lies, but it means whenever a win condition does turn up the entire deck has be be built around it and there are no alternative routes to victory.
It's a shame, because I love the class on paper: overload makes for interesting mana management, and the hero power is really interesting (if not that powerful most of the time). And as a Jack-of-all-trades class it ought to let you build a deck for any broad archetype, but in practice the "master of none" part has become a bit too apt.
Cagematch Custodian is clearly a key part of it, but increasing its cost probably won't change very much since turns 1-4 are pretty passive anyway (unless they have Lightning Bloom). That would also hit the curve into Whack-A-Gnoll Hammer or other 3 mana weapons, seriously nerfing other decks which aren't a problem. Similarly, changing the Pillager would be hitting other decks.
The issue here is not really coming from any one card, but rather how we currently have a critical mass of cards with strong synergy with Boggspine Knuckles. It will likely resolve itself in April when several key pieces rotate out, and there is an argument for leaving things alone because of that. But people won't want the meta to be that stale for 3 months, and the only fair way to hit the deck is to hit a card that won't cause collateral damage elsewhere, which in this case probably means the Knuckles.
Here's a hot take: what if Dread Corsair was targeted? It has previously been a big part of rogue's dominance in RoS (which led to Preparation and Raiding Party getting nerfed), so it's clearly not as safe a card to be evergreen as it often feels. If there is indeed a Classic set overhaul coming up, I'd probably take the Corsair out then. It is probably too fair under normal circumstances to warrant a nerf though; it's not even used in most pirate decks for example, and few of those aren't also weapon-based.
Doom in the Tomb showed us Evolve is OP at 1 mana when cards like Desert Hare exist (it is no coincidence Evolve Shaman was only strong back in the day thanks to [Hearthstone Card (Dopplegangster) Not Found], which is basically just a bigger version for evolve purposes), but it took a perfect storm of synergies for it to draw much attention at 5 mana.
Evolve shaman back in the day can actually function without Evolve or Doppelgangster. The archetype back then was alot about maintaining board and chipping face, hence cards like Bloodlust, Maelstrom Portal, and Thing from Below, which back then was a monster of a card.
Even that doom in the tomb evolve shaman was respectable to a degree. The one we got now relies entirely on the weapon so much that its entire deck is built for evolve shit and every other deck is now playing Kobold Stickyfinger, an otherwise useless card.
- Evolve can only affect active minions, not sleeping. - or Give evolve a 50/50 chance of success to a minion.
Evolve shenanigans must have killed your family and burned your house down. I can't see any other explanation for this proposed 'nerf'. Might as well just ask team5 to remove it altogether
The archetype still suffers from card draw and since its early game is so horrendous, nerfing the weapon's attack will go a long way in managing shaman until rotation, when most of the biggest problems of the deck (Desert Hare, Hoard Pillager, Mogu Fleshshaper) rotates away and the archetype loses at least half of its strengths.
In a sane world, that Lightning Bloom nerf would already been in effect. There's really nothing worse than seeing that knuckles come out early and completely tear you apart. In this case it even completely sidesteps its only counter in Kobold Stickyfinger
I'll be honest. The only reason why I'm even for a nerf is because evolve shaman is doing the same shit as giants mage in RoS is doing, and that is to put a tacit requirement to deal with its power card or die. In the latter's case, it was Mountain Giant on 4, and in evolve shaman's case its the knuckles. So every player out here is jamming stickyfingers to such a degree that no weapon with more than 2 durability can be played without severe consequences, and that basically destroys the viability of other decks not on the radar.
Personally I don't really mind evolve shaman, its the same tier 1 deck like most other tier 1 deck before it, and the fact that most of its cards rotate in a few months time makes me really reluctant to nerf anything. But when you do everything right against this deck that plays little to no early game, no board clears, only to find out that they can go from zero board to completely destroying you in a couple of turns, that's when we need to start talking about balance.
Ok, will post another card, because I have an idea, and don't wanna be disqualified, unless I will get response from mod while making the emergency card.
I'm reading so much hate for Evolve in general and people are kinda missing the mark on this. I've been playing an off meta deck that is focused on controlling the board and I have NO problems with Evolve Shaman. I get annihilated by pretty much everything else, but that is where the power lies.
For Boggspine Knuckles, there are a number of things out there that deal with this,:
Being able to tutor it out of the deck early and then bring it back is where the issue lies. If Cagematch Custodian has it's cost increased and Hoard Pillager does the same thing as Rummaging Kobold, that would substantially slow the deck since it would then have to pay to re-equip it, effectively slowing the deck.
Anyway, I made a card without 'if your deck is empty' mechanic. Do this count?
For what it's worth with only an hour to go, I don't think this is okay. Our cards need to have an effect that checks if our deck has no minions, which is a condition of the present. Yours triggers when a future state of play is reached. Try to reach Shadows via DM, but I have serious doubts. Sorry for not responding sooner :/
That said, I think it's a cool effect, you just need to make it "Battlecry: If your deck has no minions,..."
Yeah Edwin is a big offender right now, but with the Evergreen overhaul in 3 months I suspect he'll be touched.
And that betetr be HOF and not a nerf cause a nerf for classic card in generaly a death sentance and the card isnt a issue in wild liek at all. and never has been and as for what wild si for id like to be able to play with odl deck/cards as they where
That's a bit simplistic. The year up to DMF demonstrated that a 5-cost 2x Evolve attached to a decent weapon that makes Dread Corsair cost 0 and can be played 4 times in a game is fine, AND that was even with a 9 mana minion that can be played for almost nothing. It needed a tutor and another board flood in Pit Master before it became a problem.
Doom in the Tomb showed us Evolve is OP at 1 mana when cards like Desert Hare exist (it is no coincidence Evolve Shaman was only strong back in the day thanks to Doppelgangster, which is basically just a bigger version for evolve purposes), but it took a perfect storm of synergies for it to draw much attention at 5 mana.
If I had to guess, I'd say the bare effect (i.e. the Evolve card itself) should probably cost 3 to be completely fair, and 2 if you want to make clear it is a one of Shaman's strengths.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
If refresh needs less overload though
0 Mana refresh 2 with NO down is what innervae shoudve been and been adecent to pretyt good card.
But fi added overoad 2 to it that makes card terrible, should at most be overload 1. Unless want to kill any use of the card then yeah do it with extra overload even.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
Lets NOT nerf the first good card draw shaman has gotten
ANd no dont nerf corsair tis not an issue and is a classic revamp after darkmoon faire so even less reaosn to touch it and youd nerf otther decks aswell. And can nerf the dread corsair inetraction with just nerfing the attack of the weapon.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
True, I managed to claw into dumpster legend last season with my deck below using board control and only 1 single Kobold Stickyfinger. Still had a negative winrate against Evolve Shaman though, but I had no problems with the other meta decks out there. Running into shaman was no fun at all, but there was a small pocket where I ran into them less frequently.
Wild · Galakrond Warlock · by NebuchadnezzarHS · 5 years, 4 months ago
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
You mention incidentally nerfing other decks that aren't the problem... If they are using similar cards then it would impact them. With the change to Raiding Party, that hurt more decks than what was intended. It is part of the change in nerfs. are Boggspine Knuckles a problem, sure. There are a number of wild decks that are floating around using them. With that in mind, if you nerf that card, those other decks get impacted as well. No matter which way you look at it, there is always going to be collateral damage.
Snowpocalypse
Thanks for the heads-up, appreciated!
Here, enjoy a nice freshly squeezed snowball on me! ❄️
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
Off meta decks aren't necessarily good for laddering, that is what the main meta is. What I did was try to find a way to break down the Evolve Shaman issue... which was board control. If there aren't many things to evolve, then it's power becomes extremely limited. With that in mind, I just started putting in some anti-weapon cards that help my decks perform, or bring more control into the game and killing the board multiple times... Warlock is great at that right now.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
I'm only responding to your tech deck comment.
As you pointed out yourself, your deck has no problem with Evolve Shaman, but gets destroyed by everything else. How is this a good thing? Forget about climbing the ladder then if you don't want to join them? The culprit shaman deck is clearly out of balance and has completely warped the standard meta. Everyone has to run multiple Kobold Stickyfinger to even have a chance to slow them down enough to get a glimmer of chance for winning the matchup. Team5 is clearly okay with this dumbass deck running rampant for a while, coz this was quite easily predictable.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
Yeah, a lot of shaman's problems in recent years have been down to a lack of win conditions. I have lost count of the number of times I have started building a shaman deck and stopped because there's no real pay-off. E.g. I can easily make a deck that will survive for ages, but I have no plan to win the game once I get there. I'm not sure where exactly the problem lies, but it means whenever a win condition does turn up the entire deck has be be built around it and there are no alternative routes to victory.
It's a shame, because I love the class on paper: overload makes for interesting mana management, and the hero power is really interesting (if not that powerful most of the time). And as a Jack-of-all-trades class it ought to let you build a deck for any broad archetype, but in practice the "master of none" part has become a bit too apt.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
Cagematch Custodian is clearly a key part of it, but increasing its cost probably won't change very much since turns 1-4 are pretty passive anyway (unless they have Lightning Bloom). That would also hit the curve into Whack-A-Gnoll Hammer or other 3 mana weapons, seriously nerfing other decks which aren't a problem. Similarly, changing the Pillager would be hitting other decks.
The issue here is not really coming from any one card, but rather how we currently have a critical mass of cards with strong synergy with Boggspine Knuckles. It will likely resolve itself in April when several key pieces rotate out, and there is an argument for leaving things alone because of that. But people won't want the meta to be that stale for 3 months, and the only fair way to hit the deck is to hit a card that won't cause collateral damage elsewhere, which in this case probably means the Knuckles.
Here's a hot take: what if Dread Corsair was targeted? It has previously been a big part of rogue's dominance in RoS (which led to Preparation and Raiding Party getting nerfed), so it's clearly not as safe a card to be evergreen as it often feels. If there is indeed a Classic set overhaul coming up, I'd probably take the Corsair out then. It is probably too fair under normal circumstances to warrant a nerf though; it's not even used in most pirate decks for example, and few of those aren't also weapon-based.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
Evolve shaman back in the day can actually function without Evolve or Doppelgangster. The archetype back then was alot about maintaining board and chipping face, hence cards like Bloodlust, Maelstrom Portal, and Thing from Below, which back then was a monster of a card.
Even that doom in the tomb evolve shaman was respectable to a degree. The one we got now relies entirely on the weapon so much that its entire deck is built for evolve shit and every other deck is now playing Kobold Stickyfinger, an otherwise useless card.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
Evolve shenanigans must have killed your family and burned your house down. I can't see any other explanation for this proposed 'nerf'. Might as well just ask team5 to remove it altogether
Oops! All Spells! - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Happy to hear that. Every DQ is a shame if it can be avoided. Good luck!
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
Nerfs for Evolve Shaman
- Boggspine Knuckles, attack down to 2 from 4
- Lightning Bloom - refresh mana crystals instead of gain
The archetype still suffers from card draw and since its early game is so horrendous, nerfing the weapon's attack will go a long way in managing shaman until rotation, when most of the biggest problems of the deck (Desert Hare, Hoard Pillager, Mogu Fleshshaper) rotates away and the archetype loses at least half of its strengths.
In a sane world, that Lightning Bloom nerf would already been in effect. There's really nothing worse than seeing that knuckles come out early and completely tear you apart. In this case it even completely sidesteps its only counter in Kobold Stickyfinger
I'll be honest. The only reason why I'm even for a nerf is because evolve shaman is doing the same shit as giants mage in RoS is doing, and that is to put a tacit requirement to deal with its power card or die. In the latter's case, it was Mountain Giant on 4, and in evolve shaman's case its the knuckles. So every player out here is jamming stickyfingers to such a degree that no weapon with more than 2 durability can be played without severe consequences, and that basically destroys the viability of other decks not on the radar.
Personally I don't really mind evolve shaman, its the same tier 1 deck like most other tier 1 deck before it, and the fact that most of its cards rotate in a few months time makes me really reluctant to nerf anything. But when you do everything right against this deck that plays little to no early game, no board clears, only to find out that they can go from zero board to completely destroying you in a couple of turns, that's when we need to start talking about balance.
Oops! All Spells! - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Ok, will post another card, because I have an idea, and don't wanna be disqualified, unless I will get response from mod while making the emergency card.
Unofficial Kaldheim spoilers (January 2)
Some unofficial Kaldheim spoilers on MTGAZone
Powerful cards, but they are Rares and Mythic Rares.
Two (new?) keywords: Foretell and Boast.
And Snow mana.
And hints of token and counter support.
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
I'm reading so much hate for Evolve in general and people are kinda missing the mark on this. I've been playing an off meta deck that is focused on controlling the board and I have NO problems with Evolve Shaman. I get annihilated by pretty much everything else, but that is where the power lies.
For Boggspine Knuckles, there are a number of things out there that deal with this,:
1) Acidic Swamp Ooze
2) Harrison Jones
3) Kobold Stickyfinger
4) even Bloodsail Corsair can help
The issue is that the current meta is able to keep getting the weapon with Hoard Pillager and Cagematch Custodian.
Being able to tutor it out of the deck early and then bring it back is where the issue lies. If Cagematch Custodian has it's cost increased and Hoard Pillager does the same thing as Rummaging Kobold, that would substantially slow the deck since it would then have to pay to re-equip it, effectively slowing the deck.
Oops! All Spells! - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
For what it's worth with only an hour to go, I don't think this is okay. Our cards need to have an effect that checks if our deck has no minions, which is a condition of the present. Yours triggers when a future state of play is reached. Try to reach Shadows via DM, but I have serious doubts. Sorry for not responding sooner :/
That said, I think it's a cool effect, you just need to make it "Battlecry: If your deck has no minions,..."
Snowpocalypse
I'd suggest using the research function and look up cards with winter-related names ;)
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
And that betetr be HOF and not a nerf cause a nerf for classic card in generaly a death sentance and the card isnt a issue in wild liek at all. and never has been and as for what wild si for id like to be able to play with odl deck/cards as they where
Hearthstone Devs Return to Work on Monday, Will Be Talking Balance Internally
That's a bit simplistic. The year up to DMF demonstrated that a 5-cost 2x Evolve attached to a decent weapon that makes Dread Corsair cost 0 and can be played 4 times in a game is fine, AND that was even with a 9 mana minion that can be played for almost nothing. It needed a tutor and another board flood in Pit Master before it became a problem.
Doom in the Tomb showed us Evolve is OP at 1 mana when cards like Desert Hare exist (it is no coincidence Evolve Shaman was only strong back in the day thanks to Doppelgangster, which is basically just a bigger version for evolve purposes), but it took a perfect storm of synergies for it to draw much attention at 5 mana.
If I had to guess, I'd say the bare effect (i.e. the Evolve card itself) should probably cost 3 to be completely fair, and 2 if you want to make clear it is a one of Shaman's strengths.
Snowpocalypse
A small hint in the spoiler... hope it helps without completely giving it away
Oops! All Spells! - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Two hours to submit your cards!
Snowpocalypse
I know it's a bit late, but can someone please enlighten me on HS #6 "Even through the harshest blizzard, it just keeps chugging along." ??
Thanks in advance.
I made a review on the Hearthstone 10 bits of wisdom at DGC 2015 with Eric Dodds, Did HS change a a lot?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTsxkmOejAU
I wonder what you think about it. :)
Azure Drake
Underrated comment.