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That's a good point.  Especially if you consider things like Wild Pyromancer along with the new Priest rework with some current 0 or low cost heals as well as the new 0 mana Power Word Shield.  Then in Druid they are not really lacking card draw but they gained some "costs 0 mana if you have 7 or more mana" spells.  And then Warrior could almost guarantee the three draws using Skipper and they aren't supposed to have great draw if I'm not mistaken.

I'd personally love to see more or all of the original classes get a little rework like Priest just to freshen Standard up a bit.

Agreed.  The gameplan of decks should be to build your deck with a few meta tech cards, not to build a deck entirely consistent of meta counters.

I really miss card draw in priest. Without inner fire, there's not as much to get out of it. I don't think northshire cleric and power word shield should have both been gutted. I could sacrifice one, but without either, I often have an empty hand as a control deck.

I think acolyte was a problem because it was too efficient in classes with good card draw. It easily comboed in conjunction with other cards, often draw spells, in order to thin through a combo deck very quickly.

It's a comparison between the classes.  People act like DH is uncounterable, it's not.  DH falls hard against rez priest and Big Druid.

People act like DH is some new overly aggressive class, it's not.  Hunter has been around for ages.  My point is *exactly* that.  Hunter flies under the radar all the time. 

If you aren't seeing my point and furthermore are just attempting to strawman my efforts of showcasing the similarities between the two and instead attacking my argument style instead of replying with any sort of stats or opinion of your own, then I don't think we really have anything more to discuss.

I like Talritha a lot but yeah I find you need like 6+ dragons to get her value consistently

If you're looked to make use of Infectious Sporeling then you'd probably be best using Warrior and Sweeping Strikes.

Quote From Zeratia

The rule part doesn't mention that it has to help progress the quest, as long as it has Taunt synergies. But fair enough

Your card must directly support the deck, either by being a Taunt minion or by having synergy with Taunt minions.

• Examples include Scrap Golem, King's Defender, and Into the Fray.

This rule might be too vague and open to too much interpretation... But I would argue, giving your enemy minion's Taunt, and then summoning yourself copies doesn't really support the deck in any way. 

I think this is awesome.  Not all people are paying for cards, a lot of FTP.  So having help with budget decks helps a lot.

I actually like gold cards... it is more of a "prestige" and "look at me" situation since they do not impact the game in the slightest, but they are still cool to watch sometimes. 

I love that they rotated Acolyte of Pain and then realize that classes that lacked card draw needed it for that reason.  

But the albatross can only delay Raza, not really prevent it (unless you go hard with duplicates).

Also, albatross may be nerfed for Standard purposes soon (to be seen how).

I am working on that one as well. Which is a main priority of mine.  @ YourPrivateNightmare

The first deck zoo lock outland. I have encountered that one. Hehe. 

Quote From iWatchUSleep

I changed my response seeing how I had forgotten the Sn1p-sn4p tragedy, among other things. I was hoping you would at least read a post before quoting it. My bad.

Check out vicioussyndicate.com.

You now know what an actual meta report looks like. You're welcome.

Lets take a closer look if VS agrees with your claim "Secret mage has been the best deck for a long time now":

VS Report 21 Feb 2020: Secret Mage Nr 1 deck in Legend -> point for your

VS Report 20 Nov 2019: Secret Mage Nr 3 best deck in Legend -> hmm this doesn`t fit your claim

VS Report 19 Sept 2019: Secret Mage Nr 2 best deck in Legend -> close one, but the Nr. 2 is not the best deck

VS Report 18 July 2019: Secret Mage Nr 3 best deck in Legend -> damn again not the Nr 1

To sum it up: According to VS Secret mage is a T1 and one of the best decks for a long time, thats right. But the claim "Secret mage has been the best deck for a long time now" is still - according to your own source - nonsense. 

So I still see no reason to think Secret Mage is so overpowered that it urgently needs to be nerfs. You're welcome.

Quote From Sykomyke

There's an old saying "assume the best intentions of those who engage in discourse with you. Respond to the STRONGEST possible argument that they would present, not the weakest...otherwise you are talking past each other, not to each other."

I don't know why you're starting off with this, considering that in your original post basically assumes fault in others for not being able to play around pre-nerfed Imprisoned Antaen. You should have instead displayed all the facts and figures supporting that as you do here. My argument is just that :- many classes/decks can't, hence why I supported the first Imprisoned Antaen nerf.

Your math is correct but the scenarios you postulated aren't. A card showcasing a high winrate doesn't mean that it's always played, only that when it's played it produces a higher winrate…

…But for a dose of reality. Stormhammer can come out as early as turn 3. That meas in a hunter vs DH matchup. The hunter has had the chance to attack for 12 total damage by the time PoF comes down. That's not counting damage from hero powers, other spells/effects or minions.

I applaud the extensive amount of statistics you pulled, but the original argument on this specific point, which I engaged, wasn't about win rates of cards. Its addressing what you stated: "All in all I just find it amusing because if this was Hunter, noone would be complaining but hunter throws out just as much early damage as DH yet flies under the radar all the time. "

Your dose of reality is to show me that stormhammer can potentially* do 12 damage before PoF gets out.  What are you comparing here? Damage output in a hunter vs dhunter match? I think its easy enough for me to point out how badly hunters do against dhunters as an argument that dhunters output more damage in a matchup between the two.

Lastly:

So in short: No. While Antaen and Pof may feel like powerhouse cards, and may feel strong, and may win some games. They are not the problem cards of DH. They are often the cards that people see and sometimes feel slightly helpless against, but they aren't "winning" the game for them.

I agree that PoF and IA are hardly the most problematic when it comes to assessing dhunters as a whole. But to say that they are 'aren't "winning" the game for them' does not mesh well with your statistics. There's a good reason why PoF have high win rates. They win games. And if other players feel slightly helpless every time they see it played, they ought to be; they're 55.9% likely to lose that game, to quote your stats.

I dont have a premium account from hsreplay, and I can't tell easily how you're pulling these stats out. But if all you wanted to say was that dhunter's early game cards are more responsible for wins than cards like IA and PoF, I would encourage you to just make a statistical comparison of it, instead of insinuating that hunters "flies under the radar all the time". Might have helped your case better had you just leave hunters out of it altogether.

Yeah, she rocks :)

Quote From kuschi

Instead of Infectious Sporeling you could use Replicat-o-tron

This. Replicat-o-tron is a really useful card in Libram Paladin, allowing you to double the Librams and avoid Hex/Polymorph destroying your game plan. Paladin has the extra advantage of being able to produce tokens as well.

An interesting change to Open the Waygate would be to make it refresh your mana instead of taking an extra turn. This would keep the combo potential, but it no longer stacks with Archmage Vargoth and it also doesn't give you any extra attacks which would fix the giant deck.

I played against two Demon Hunters yesterday that both drew threw their ENTIRE deck into fatigue when I still had about 15 cards left. One lost to me, and one killed me from very high health across two turns. I think the amount of draw in each class is actually near-fine at the moment EXCEPT for Demon Hunter which is ridiculously over-powered. The more I play against it, the more I think the fundamental design of the class is broken, starting with a 1-cost hero power. I could suggest half a dozen card nerfs, but I'll stake out the hard position that the entire thing needs an overhaul already. I'm genuinely glad Team-5 went for it, and I want them to experiment in the future, but ladder has basically become unbearable to me, and I've been having fun despite oppressive metas since Undertaker gained +1/+1.

I think "he" is a she ;)