Yes, but the paladin and rogue classes are so different both defensively and offensively that it likely won't play just like a worse Time Out! As they say: context is everything.
I'm not certain if Rod of Roasting would actually hit you though, because Pyroblast is a targeted spell and random spell casting still follows targeting rules. So you should be safe from your opponent using it.
One of the devs said the pally secret was one of their favourite cards in the set (I think in response to a question about whether they were planning to take secrets away from the class in the Basic/Classic overhaul next year), and I was wondering what 1 mana effect could ever be interesting enough to earn that. Well, now we are here, it did not disappoint.
The variance is large, but you at least have some idea of how badly things can go at any given mana cost, so you can actually make contingency plans. So on this occasion I'll let the 'cast a random spell' RNG pass.
Well Kronx will rotate out next year anyway, so there's not much reason to send Shadowstep with him. In the meantime, I doubt a 4 card 10 mana combo that isn't an OTK is likely to sound many alarm bells.
Yeah, I always forget about the rotation, you're right. But I feel that Shadowstep is causing design team headaches, maybe returned cards should cost (1) less.
About the new Kronx combo, I thought in the context of Rogue early chip damage, this will be a very strong finisher, that is also very flexible (10-15 heal in Rogue is very strong, also double Taunt is great). So it may be a bit problematic.
Shadowstep is certainly one of those cards that can be quite dangerous, but equally it has never actually been a notable problem in the meta. I have long felt that rogue is the one class they know how to keep balanced, largely because it's the one class they have remained committed to not giving any taunt or healing*, so it always has a glaring weakness to aggro that is easy to exploit if the class ever gets too strong.
* Yes, lifesteal on weapons has been a thing, but since Leeching Poison was changed this has always been easy to solve with any weapon removal, and it isn't present in Standard in any case.
You rightly raise multiple Kronx giving taunt and/or healing and/or AoE, which would shore up the primary weaknesses of the class. Generally speaking, I agree that having a way to fill in weaknesses like that is very dangerous. The only reason I don't think it is really problematic in this case is that big Kronx turns happen too late in the game to help much against aggro, so at an archetype vs archetype level it doesn't make as big a difference as you might expect.
Philosophical question: is it really power creep if comparing to a card that is has long been power crept? Sure there has been power creep somewhere along the way, but it doesn't mean Malevolent Strike itself has done anything to push the power up from where it was just before.
Well, that's a very creative way to implement the hall of mirrors into the game. Top marks for flavour.
Power wise, it is easy to forget how little rogue wants to leave a significant minion on the opponent's side of the board. You just don't have the survivability to shrug off that damage a lot of the time. That said, if the opponent is thinking the same thing they might not want to hurt you meaning it ends up saving you health. Add to that the fact it is a secret that you can never be certain of because you cannot test for Plagiarize, and if there are no minions to attack you cannot test for Bamboozle either, so the rogue could easily start some serious mind games.
So final verdict: I really don't know how good it is in such a fragile class, but the context of rogue secrets making it truly secret means that I would be surprised if it does not play a role in the meta simply because it exists.
Thank you for this exchange of opinions. It is interesting that players have different views on lore/gameplay etc. and we can talk about our views :)
No problem. That's what these forums are for more than anything else. I kind of wish everyone who disagreed with me left a comment rather than (just) a down-vote. There's a lot both sides can learn from discussion that simply doesn't exist with an anonymous and unexplained down-vote.
As a final note on recycled characters, I completely agree that it leads to a bit of a disconnect from the fantasy of commanding a little army of characters. In practice however that fantasy is nearly always thrown out the window in favour for win rates anyway. Take something as simple as using SI:7 Agent in Lackey rogue. It makes good sense mechanically but why would the SI:7 be helping the League of EVIL? They wouldn't, and that's surely just as wrong as having the same character appear twice.
I'm fine with them recylcing characters. To me getting the theme of each expansion right is more important than whether we've seen some of the characters before. Darkmoon Faire would feel quite different if the Old Gods didn't reappear themselves, for example, and I liked how the Year of the Dragon expansions helped connect up different parts of Hearthstone lore.
I also like that they are often related mechanicially. It might make a card functionally distinct - with Nat Pagle and Nat, the Darkfisher being a clear example there - but still feel believable that the same character is doing those things. The 3 Elise cards do this very well, as they all generate serious value while managing to show some character development along the way: the Starseeker has to work hard for a single bit of treasure; the Trailblazer skips a few steps and goes directly to the prize; while the Enlightened knows she already has what she wants/needs and works with that.
This card is so flexible and useful with so many different decks and archetypes I really can't imagine this card not seeing play. This is rogue's version of Gorgon Zola.
I personally would have said Zola was Neutral's version of Shadowcaster, or just rogue shenanigans with duplication/bouncing in general, but hey ho. I agree it is almost too solid and flexible to not see play, especially if the meta encourages value over aggro again.
Quote From Ethardoth
This with Kronx and double shadowstep equals triple Kronx' effect on 10 mana. With 4 smaller minions on board it's 24 damage, or 15 on empty board. I guess they'll have to nerf or HoF Shadowstep soon :(
Well Kronx will rotate out next year anyway, so there's not much reason to send Shadowstep with him. In the meantime, I doubt a 4 card 10 mana combo that isn't an OTK is likely to sound many alarm bells.
Yes, the deathrattles will resolve in the order the minion got them, so if there are only 2 of them the second's deathrattle will try to apply to nothing before summoning a Greybough.
Even if there's more than 2 you can be clever and slowly whittle them away, but it would take a long time. E.g. for 3 of them:
Kill number 1, who puts its deathrattle on number 2.
Kill number 3, who also puts its deathrattle on number 2.
Then kill number 2, whose own deathrattle fails before summoning 2 more.
Now you can kill 1 again.
Then kill 3 whose own deathrattle fails before summoning 1 more.
No, I think you're right to read that much into it. I kinda wish they had done something with the art to place him in this expansion more than just "he's the only demon paladin and we wanted menagerie support". With Yrel doing pretty much the same thing (so far as I can tell she's only here because they wanted a puritanical character for a pure pally), and Turalyon in Scholomance for no reason whatsoever (I mean seriously, he's just about the only paladin with no link to the scourge at all), it just feels like there must be a better way to do this.
I think we can ignore any non-mechs/goblins/gnomes in GvG since it was clear they hadn't committed fully to that theme. Likely they chose not to because they were still trying to keep to established Warcraft lore and there weren't any options for many classes. It is notable that TGT was when they abandoned the old 'Heroes of Warcraft' subtitle and started making up new characters.
I agree Benedictus was a bit of a misfit. I have always wondered whether they included him after mistaking him for Lilian Voss's father. Personally I blame whoever thought it was a good idea to have both an Archbishop Benedictus and a High Priest Benedictus.
On the whole though misfits are rare. The only other one I had real trouble understanding was Wrathion in MSoG.
As Trimutius said, why not both? If you care enough about bouncing minions to put Shadowstep in the deck, then having more ways to do that is surely desirable. OG quest rogue went really heavy on it (for obvious reasons), but other decks can find it useful too.
And classic was a overal way way lower power level. With way elss mana cheat and all and wya less crazy stuf
Right, and we're talking about serious mana cheating on one of the craziest cards in Classic. The question is just whether the meta will routinely punish a slow turn and/or a 15 health cap, not whether a 3 mana Jaraxxus is strong enough for modern HS.
Control decks rarely do anything significant on turn 6 if there is nothing to react to. Certainly whatever they do won't be high enough tempo that you cannot make up for it, especially since the 6 mana was invested in high tempo plays later.
The thing is Jaraxxus has been good in the past - not often, but it has happened - so there are definitely metas where you can cope fine with 15 hp. He was even decent during Classic, when warlock had practically no healing and there was no reliable way to make him cheaper than 9 mana. That isn't to say he definitely will be good, just that it is easy to mistake weaknesses during one meta as being important in another one, which isn't always true.
It depends a lot on what the meta looks like. If its aggressive, then 6 mana with no immediate impact is very tough to recover from. If it is control and value heavy, then it won't be much of a problem a lot of the time.
If the meta is slow, a 3 mana Jaraxxus should not be dismissed lightly. Pressing the button on that turn makes it 5 mana for a 6/6 demon, a 3/8 weapon and an insane hero power. There are certainly match ups where being at 15 health is perfectly fine.
Since the worst case scenario is a fair card by most classes standards, I think you'd still use this if you have a significant amount of shuffling going on. If Libram Pally continues to be a thing, you'd want to keep Saps too, but that deck has more than enough big stuff to destroy if you are playing a slow game.
The real question will be how it compares to Coerce. Maybe a reliable 3 mana cost is good enough, or maybe having it cost 0 to make that Shek'zara turn 6 much less slow is important.
I think a large part of the issue is that the Paladin class is just so narrow as a starting point, and we're seeing the same thing with Demon Hunter too. I don't blame the HS team for going beyond Warcraft Pally lore for the sake of making the class a little less same-y, but it does irk me when there are sensible choices for legendaries but they instead choose ones that aren't even on Azeroth.
Hmm. So he is. I missed him as he wasn't in the list of notable leaders on the Silver Hand page. That is perhaps a sign there are more appropriate members, but I guess they really wanted a bit of menagerie support for N'Zoth decks.
A blood troll eh? Perhaps a hint at G'huun for priest's second legendary?
Yes, but the paladin and rogue classes are so different both defensively and offensively that it likely won't play just like a worse Time Out! As they say: context is everything.
I'm not certain if Rod of Roasting would actually hit you though, because Pyroblast is a targeted spell and random spell casting still follows targeting rules. So you should be safe from your opponent using it.
One of the devs said the pally secret was one of their favourite cards in the set (I think in response to a question about whether they were planning to take secrets away from the class in the Basic/Classic overhaul next year), and I was wondering what 1 mana effect could ever be interesting enough to earn that. Well, now we are here, it did not disappoint.
The variance is large, but you at least have some idea of how badly things can go at any given mana cost, so you can actually make contingency plans. So on this occasion I'll let the 'cast a random spell' RNG pass.
Shadowstep is certainly one of those cards that can be quite dangerous, but equally it has never actually been a notable problem in the meta. I have long felt that rogue is the one class they know how to keep balanced, largely because it's the one class they have remained committed to not giving any taunt or healing*, so it always has a glaring weakness to aggro that is easy to exploit if the class ever gets too strong.
* Yes, lifesteal on weapons has been a thing, but since Leeching Poison was changed this has always been easy to solve with any weapon removal, and it isn't present in Standard in any case.
You rightly raise multiple Kronx giving taunt and/or healing and/or AoE, which would shore up the primary weaknesses of the class. Generally speaking, I agree that having a way to fill in weaknesses like that is very dangerous. The only reason I don't think it is really problematic in this case is that big Kronx turns happen too late in the game to help much against aggro, so at an archetype vs archetype level it doesn't make as big a difference as you might expect.
Philosophical question: is it really power creep if comparing to a card that is has long been power crept? Sure there has been power creep somewhere along the way, but it doesn't mean Malevolent Strike itself has done anything to push the power up from where it was just before.
Well, that's a very creative way to implement the hall of mirrors into the game. Top marks for flavour.
Power wise, it is easy to forget how little rogue wants to leave a significant minion on the opponent's side of the board. You just don't have the survivability to shrug off that damage a lot of the time. That said, if the opponent is thinking the same thing they might not want to hurt you meaning it ends up saving you health. Add to that the fact it is a secret that you can never be certain of because you cannot test for Plagiarize, and if there are no minions to attack you cannot test for Bamboozle either, so the rogue could easily start some serious mind games.
So final verdict: I really don't know how good it is in such a fragile class, but the context of rogue secrets making it truly secret means that I would be surprised if it does not play a role in the meta simply because it exists.
No problem. That's what these forums are for more than anything else. I kind of wish everyone who disagreed with me left a comment rather than (just) a down-vote. There's a lot both sides can learn from discussion that simply doesn't exist with an anonymous and unexplained down-vote.
As a final note on recycled characters, I completely agree that it leads to a bit of a disconnect from the fantasy of commanding a little army of characters. In practice however that fantasy is nearly always thrown out the window in favour for win rates anyway. Take something as simple as using SI:7 Agent in Lackey rogue. It makes good sense mechanically but why would the SI:7 be helping the League of EVIL? They wouldn't, and that's surely just as wrong as having the same character appear twice.
I'm fine with them recylcing characters. To me getting the theme of each expansion right is more important than whether we've seen some of the characters before. Darkmoon Faire would feel quite different if the Old Gods didn't reappear themselves, for example, and I liked how the Year of the Dragon expansions helped connect up different parts of Hearthstone lore.
I also like that they are often related mechanicially. It might make a card functionally distinct - with Nat Pagle and Nat, the Darkfisher being a clear example there - but still feel believable that the same character is doing those things. The 3 Elise cards do this very well, as they all generate serious value while managing to show some character development along the way: the Starseeker has to work hard for a single bit of treasure; the Trailblazer skips a few steps and goes directly to the prize; while the Enlightened knows she already has what she wants/needs and works with that.
I personally would have said Zola was Neutral's version of Shadowcaster, or just rogue shenanigans with duplication/bouncing in general, but hey ho. I agree it is almost too solid and flexible to not see play, especially if the meta encourages value over aggro again.
Well Kronx will rotate out next year anyway, so there's not much reason to send Shadowstep with him. In the meantime, I doubt a 4 card 10 mana combo that isn't an OTK is likely to sound many alarm bells.
Yes, the deathrattles will resolve in the order the minion got them, so if there are only 2 of them the second's deathrattle will try to apply to nothing before summoning a Greybough.
Even if there's more than 2 you can be clever and slowly whittle them away, but it would take a long time. E.g. for 3 of them:
It's a lot of work, but possible at least.
No, I think you're right to read that much into it. I kinda wish they had done something with the art to place him in this expansion more than just "he's the only demon paladin and we wanted menagerie support". With Yrel doing pretty much the same thing (so far as I can tell she's only here because they wanted a puritanical character for a pure pally), and Turalyon in Scholomance for no reason whatsoever (I mean seriously, he's just about the only paladin with no link to the scourge at all), it just feels like there must be a better way to do this.
I think we can ignore any non-mechs/goblins/gnomes in GvG since it was clear they hadn't committed fully to that theme. Likely they chose not to because they were still trying to keep to established Warcraft lore and there weren't any options for many classes. It is notable that TGT was when they abandoned the old 'Heroes of Warcraft' subtitle and started making up new characters.
I agree Benedictus was a bit of a misfit. I have always wondered whether they included him after mistaking him for Lilian Voss's father. Personally I blame whoever thought it was a good idea to have both an Archbishop Benedictus and a High Priest Benedictus.
On the whole though misfits are rare. The only other one I had real trouble understanding was Wrathion in MSoG.
As Trimutius said, why not both? If you care enough about bouncing minions to put Shadowstep in the deck, then having more ways to do that is surely desirable. OG quest rogue went really heavy on it (for obvious reasons), but other decks can find it useful too.
Right, and we're talking about serious mana cheating on one of the craziest cards in Classic. The question is just whether the meta will routinely punish a slow turn and/or a 15 health cap, not whether a 3 mana Jaraxxus is strong enough for modern HS.
Control decks rarely do anything significant on turn 6 if there is nothing to react to. Certainly whatever they do won't be high enough tempo that you cannot make up for it, especially since the 6 mana was invested in high tempo plays later.
The thing is Jaraxxus has been good in the past - not often, but it has happened - so there are definitely metas where you can cope fine with 15 hp. He was even decent during Classic, when warlock had practically no healing and there was no reliable way to make him cheaper than 9 mana. That isn't to say he definitely will be good, just that it is easy to mistake weaknesses during one meta as being important in another one, which isn't always true.
It depends a lot on what the meta looks like. If its aggressive, then 6 mana with no immediate impact is very tough to recover from. If it is control and value heavy, then it won't be much of a problem a lot of the time.
If the meta is slow, a 3 mana Jaraxxus should not be dismissed lightly. Pressing the button on that turn makes it 5 mana for a 6/6 demon, a 3/8 weapon and an insane hero power. There are certainly match ups where being at 15 health is perfectly fine.
You're viewing it wrong. You're meant to get both Holy Wrath and Deck of Chaos in rogue as the backup plan for when you don't draw Gral, the Shark.
Since the worst case scenario is a fair card by most classes standards, I think you'd still use this if you have a significant amount of shuffling going on. If Libram Pally continues to be a thing, you'd want to keep Saps too, but that deck has more than enough big stuff to destroy if you are playing a slow game.
The real question will be how it compares to Coerce. Maybe a reliable 3 mana cost is good enough, or maybe having it cost 0 to make that Shek'zara turn 6 much less slow is important.
I think a large part of the issue is that the Paladin class is just so narrow as a starting point, and we're seeing the same thing with Demon Hunter too. I don't blame the HS team for going beyond Warcraft Pally lore for the sake of making the class a little less same-y, but it does irk me when there are sensible choices for legendaries but they instead choose ones that aren't even on Azeroth.
Hmm. So he is. I missed him as he wasn't in the list of notable leaders on the Silver Hand page. That is perhaps a sign there are more appropriate members, but I guess they really wanted a bit of menagerie support for N'Zoth decks.