I don´t think there is a disagreement here, as you mentioned there is a difference between individual cards and archetypes that are based on them. In fact i think Riot, unlike other developers like Blizzard or CDPR, maintained a good balance introducing new cards and keeping older decks viable. You might even argue that new archetypes are too weak in comparison to older ones. So far. Since CotM is spread over three releases, the verdict is still out there. We have to wait and see what direction CotM is going to.
But if you look at some cards, their "value for mana cost" is crazy. I am thinking of cards like "The Golden Sister" that gives 8/6 of vanilla power, spread on two bodies, one with Lifesteal and the other with Elusive. Another example is living legends, a 10 mana burst spell that refills your mana and fills your hand with 0 cost cards. And there are more cards in the invoke pool that are just crazy in terms of value and way above the mana/stats ratio of older cards.
I think that your posts might come across as mean because what you’re essentially saying is “I blame the player base for being too casual and ruining the game design”
Thats exactly where i didn´t make myself clear enough. Blaming people for what they are or enjoy is exactly the opposite of what i was trying to say. I am well aware that different people enjoy different things. And what i want is not better for the game by default or superior to what others enjoy. I do sympathize both with casual players and with gamedesigners appealing to them. It is the OP that claimed Aurelion Sol is the result of failed game design.
What i was trying to say is that, without knowing what Riot wanted to design we can not say if they failed. I do not like Aurelion, but i can see why it exists. And it is one of the most played cards of the expansion. In terms of keeping people engaged it probably is a success (if that is what Riot designed it for).
In terms of game balance you might argue for or against it. It is not OP for sure. But vs. Aurelion decks i simply had too many games i personally consider a waste of time, because what i did in the game did not matter at all, whether i lost to some random invoked card or played vs an unbeatable draw (draw RNG is something else i do not like about Runeterra, in comparison to Gwent i might add, i know it is part of every cardgame).
Again, that is a personal thing. You can argue for RNG (keeps games fresh and different, creates memorable moments) and against it (reduces player agency over the outcome of the game, cannot be played around). I can only say that RNG does not float my boat.
I do appreciate the effort you made to showcase that the focus of Call of the Mountain is not only on RNG but more strategy. That is the way way to go in healthy discussions. And i partially agree with your point. But some newly introduced mechanics are combined with fairly swingy RNG again :
1. Nightfall
- Lunari Priestess (invokes a card)
- Unspeakable Horror (creates a random Nightfall card)
From where i stand, the RNG factor is featured at least prominently in the expansion, and from my point of view it devaluates the strategic aspect of the game. Yet i am aware that people might enjoy exactly that and Riot might simply be delivering. Whether i like it or not.
It is heartbreaking to see someone using Gene Wilder as an avatar and taking things so seriously at the same time. But i also did a bad job at stating my point maybe.
Let me specify. I played thousands of hours playing Hearthstone, Gwent and Runeterra and have seen a ton of expansions being released. They all feature similar elements : wild Combos, increased RNG and cards above the power average of older ones.
And while i do not like those elements in cardgames i am sure the game designer is trying to give the majority of players what they want (and what they would pay for).
It looks like you took the most offense from the term "effortless". I should have used "easy" or "casual" maybe. Not every player has a lot of time playing a game, learning it and collecting cards. Also, some will never be good players. They come home from work, studying or school and they want a fun time. And i sympathize. Losing is not fun most of the time. I suspect that developers give them cards and mechanics that guarantee a minimum winrate at a maximum fun level, no matter how much time they spent at a game previously and regardless of their current skill level.
RNG swings and cards strong enough that they simply win at a certain point in the game probably help those players enjoying themselves. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is just not my cup of tea.
My first post here certainly wasn´t meant to offend anyone. If i did, i am sorry.
Talking about good or bad design is difficult if you do not know what something was designed for in the first place. I personally am not thrilled about Call of the Mountain. I do not like RNG , i am not a fan of cards like Aurelion Sol , and i do not enjoy games that i win or lose almost regardless of what i have been doing.
If this expansion was designed to cater to my needs, than that was poorly done. But i give Riot some credit and will assume that there is another crowd out there (most likely consisting of people that spend actual money) that expects effortless wins, BIG plays, smashing combos and ridiculous RNG swings.
Hearthstone does not sit on the Iron Throne for nothing.
I don´t think there is a disagreement here, as you mentioned there is a difference between individual cards and archetypes that are based on them. In fact i think Riot, unlike other developers like Blizzard or CDPR, maintained a good balance introducing new cards and keeping older decks viable. You might even argue that new archetypes are too weak in comparison to older ones. So far. Since CotM is spread over three releases, the verdict is still out there. We have to wait and see what direction CotM is going to.
But if you look at some cards, their "value for mana cost" is crazy. I am thinking of cards like "The Golden Sister" that gives 8/6 of vanilla power, spread on two bodies, one with Lifesteal and the other with Elusive. Another example is living legends, a 10 mana burst spell that refills your mana and fills your hand with 0 cost cards. And there are more cards in the invoke pool that are just crazy in terms of value and way above the mana/stats ratio of older cards.
Wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph.
Thats exactly where i didn´t make myself clear enough. Blaming people for what they are or enjoy is exactly the opposite of what i was trying to say. I am well aware that different people enjoy different things. And what i want is not better for the game by default or superior to what others enjoy. I do sympathize both with casual players and with gamedesigners appealing to them. It is the OP that claimed Aurelion Sol is the result of failed game design.
What i was trying to say is that, without knowing what Riot wanted to design we can not say if they failed. I do not like Aurelion, but i can see why it exists. And it is one of the most played cards of the expansion. In terms of keeping people engaged it probably is a success (if that is what Riot designed it for).
In terms of game balance you might argue for or against it. It is not OP for sure. But vs. Aurelion decks i simply had too many games i personally consider a waste of time, because what i did in the game did not matter at all, whether i lost to some random invoked card or played vs an unbeatable draw (draw RNG is something else i do not like about Runeterra, in comparison to Gwent i might add, i know it is part of every cardgame).
Again, that is a personal thing. You can argue for RNG (keeps games fresh and different, creates memorable moments) and against it (reduces player agency over the outcome of the game, cannot be played around). I can only say that RNG does not float my boat.
I do appreciate the effort you made to showcase that the focus of Call of the Mountain is not only on RNG but more strategy. That is the way way to go in healthy discussions. And i partially agree with your point. But some newly introduced mechanics are combined with fairly swingy RNG again :
1. Nightfall
- Lunari Priestess (invokes a card)
- Unspeakable Horror (creates a random Nightfall card)
- Nocturnes unspeakable Horror (same)
2. Daybreak
- Rahvun (create a random Daybreak card)
- Solari Priestess (invokes Celestial card costing 4, 5 or 6 mana)
6. Behold
- Behold the Infinite (invoke)
From where i stand, the RNG factor is featured at least prominently in the expansion, and from my point of view it devaluates the strategic aspect of the game. Yet i am aware that people might enjoy exactly that and Riot might simply be delivering. Whether i like it or not.
It is heartbreaking to see someone using Gene Wilder as an avatar and taking things so seriously at the same time. But i also did a bad job at stating my point maybe.
Let me specify. I played thousands of hours playing Hearthstone, Gwent and Runeterra and have seen a ton of expansions being released. They all feature similar elements : wild Combos, increased RNG and cards above the power average of older ones.
And while i do not like those elements in cardgames i am sure the game designer is trying to give the majority of players what they want (and what they would pay for).
It looks like you took the most offense from the term "effortless". I should have used "easy" or "casual" maybe. Not every player has a lot of time playing a game, learning it and collecting cards. Also, some will never be good players. They come home from work, studying or school and they want a fun time. And i sympathize. Losing is not fun most of the time. I suspect that developers give them cards and mechanics that guarantee a minimum winrate at a maximum fun level, no matter how much time they spent at a game previously and regardless of their current skill level.
RNG swings and cards strong enough that they simply win at a certain point in the game probably help those players enjoying themselves. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is just not my cup of tea.
My first post here certainly wasn´t meant to offend anyone. If i did, i am sorry.
Talking about good or bad design is difficult if you do not know what something was designed for in the first place. I personally am not thrilled about Call of the Mountain. I do not like RNG , i am not a fan of cards like Aurelion Sol , and i do not enjoy games that i win or lose almost regardless of what i have been doing.
If this expansion was designed to cater to my needs, than that was poorly done. But i give Riot some credit and will assume that there is another crowd out there (most likely consisting of people that spend actual money) that expects effortless wins, BIG plays, smashing combos and ridiculous RNG swings.
Hearthstone does not sit on the Iron Throne for nothing.