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Hearthstone | Posted by | 6 years, 5 months ago
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Frost Nova should be HoF'd

This isn't a rant about power, or even frustration. This is about design space. I think that Frost Nova seriously limits the design space of freeze effects for Mage. With Frost Nova and Blizzard, Mage has insane board locking presence. They can prevent all enemy minions from attacking up to four times. That's totally balanced, but it means that you really can't print another mass freeze effect (at least not one with a bonus effect worth using). Being able to do that six times is far too much. With both cards being Classic, that's an entire design that that's just... not viable.

Obviously if Nova were to go, it would have to be prefacing a set where Blizzard was intending to add another mass freeze. That makes the most sense.

The reason I think Nova should go over Blizzard is because it's cheaper and has no other effects, which makes it harder to balance. Also, Blizzard is too entertaining to cut from Standard. I also know that Cone of Cold exists, but that's just a worse Frost Nova (ergo, a side effect that's not worth using). Maybe without Nova, Cone of Cold could even see play - that might be interesting.

Thoughts? Do you agree or am I talking out of my ass?

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  • This isn't a rant about power, or even frustration. This is about design space. I think that Frost Nova seriously limits the design space of freeze effects for Mage. With Frost Nova and Blizzard, Mage has insane board locking presence. They can prevent all enemy minions from attacking up to four times. That's totally balanced, but it means that you really can't print another mass freeze effect (at least not one with a bonus effect worth using). Being able to do that six times is far too much. With both cards being Classic, that's an entire design that that's just... not viable.

    Obviously if Nova were to go, it would have to be prefacing a set where Blizzard was intending to add another mass freeze. That makes the most sense.

    The reason I think Nova should go over Blizzard is because it's cheaper and has no other effects, which makes it harder to balance. Also, Blizzard is too entertaining to cut from Standard. I also know that Cone of Cold exists, but that's just a worse Frost Nova (ergo, a side effect that's not worth using). Maybe without Nova, Cone of Cold could even see play - that might be interesting.

    Thoughts? Do you agree or am I talking out of my ass?

  • I don't think it needs to be HoFed.

    I think it is kinda pointless to HoF a mass freeze effect so that blizzard can start printing more mass freeze effects in the future. What would be the point? Also, Think about wild. Adding a new mass freeze effect every year or two would mean that in wild mages would have access to 6+ board freezes, which, as you stated, would be too many. 

    You mentioned that if they were to rotate Frost Nova then they would have room to add other mass freeze effects with addition effects, but I think that having Frost Nova is a good idea because it gives us a reference point for other mass freeze abilities. So even if we were to rotate a mass freeze card, Blizzard would probably be the better option. (And because it has a higher rarity players will get more dust from it rotating :P)

    Friendly

  • It's definitely high on the list, yes. I could see Blizzard dying for Frost Nova's sins but I think we all know who's the real bad guy there.

  • What benefit would rotating Frost Nova have? This means there's only one option for Freezing in mage's basic set, which allows Blizzard to print more freezing cards as expansions rotate. Eventually, mage will have countless freezing options in Wild. While that may not seem like a problem because "Wild is supposed to be wild", you run into the old Naga Sea Witch problem where it actually plauges the ladder and becomes virtually unplayable. This is the same problem with Priest, their basic and classis set is so unbelievably bad that they rely on ridiculously strong cards to be printed throughout expansions, which eventually ends up in Wild, adding to Priests ever growing collection of stong cards. Beacuse Priest doesn't have a proper board clear, Blizzard has no choice but to print a new one every rotation. And just so that they don't have to print a new board clear every expansion, they print cards like Psychich Scream and Plague of Death so that they can focus on making other cards instead. This is probably what will happen to mage if they removed Forst Nova; they won't have any other viable option, which will force Blizzard into a position where they have to print mass freeze effects every rotation, which will either clog up slots for other potential new cards or just be an insanely strong card that will eventually funnel into wild.

    • Quote From GameTheory345

      What benefit would rotating Frost Nova have? This means there's only one option for Freezing in mage's basic set, which allows Blizzard to print more freezing cards as expansions rotate. Eventually, mage will have countless freezing options in Wild. While that may not seem like a problem because "Wild is supposed to be wild", you run into the old Naga Sea Witch problem where it actually plauges the ladder and becomes virtually unplayable. This is the same problem with Priest, their basic and classis set is so unbelievably bad that they rely on ridiculously strong cards to be printed throughout expansions, which eventually ends up in Wild, adding to Priests ever growing collection of stong cards. Beacuse Priest doesn't have a proper board clear, Blizzard has no choice but to print a new one every rotation. And just so that they don't have to print a new board clear every expansion, they print cards like Psychich Scream and Plague of Death so that they can focus on making other cards instead. This is probably what will happen to mage if they removed Forst Nova; they won't have any other viable option, which will force Blizzard into a position where they have to print mass freeze effects every rotation, which will either clog up slots for other potential new cards or just be an insanely strong card that will eventually funnel into wild.

      None of the other classes have access to mass-freeze, which is an incredibly busted mechanic to begin with. Even if they took away nova and never printed another freezing card, mage would still be the king of freezes, not to mention one of the best classes at clearing boards. The comparison to priest simply doesn't hold water. Mage probably has the strongest evergreen set of all the classes.

  • One of the things that makes Big Priest possible in Wild is the amount of board clearing effects Priest gets year in and year out.  This happens because they don't have a great one in Classic/Basic, so they print one every now and then.  But with all they've got now in Wild they can mass clear and/or stall until they cheat our and then resurrect a ton of big dudes to win.

    Frost Nova may very well limit their ability to print more mass freezes, but I'm honestly okay with that.  Time Warp Mages in Wild are already pretty strong, imagine how much strong they'd get if they had more cheap mass freezes that also came with cool and helpful effects? If they were to do this, the card replacing Frost Nova in Classic woudl have to be the new mass freeze card so that they don't go printing a bunch year after year.

    • Quote From Thonson

      One of the things that makes Big Priest possible in Wild is the amount of board clearing effects Priest gets year in and year out.  This happens because they don't have a great one in Classic/Basic, so they print one every now and then.  But with all they've got now in Wild they can mass clear and/or stall until they cheat our and then resurrect a ton of big dudes to win.

      Frost Nova may very well limit their ability to print more mass freezes, but I'm honestly okay with that.  Time Warp Mages in Wild are already pretty strong, imagine how much strong they'd get if they had more cheap mass freezes that also came with cool and helpful effects? If they were to do this, the card replacing Frost Nova in Classic woudl have to be the new mass freeze card so that they don't go printing a bunch year after year.

      Uh, no. Big priest and quest mage are currently barely playable in wild. The reason big priest is strong is because Blizzard decided to implement a half-assed resurrection mechanic. Wild priest is at a point where the amount of removals it has are extremely bloated. So much so that insane board clears like Lightbomb and Dragonfire Potion see little to no play.

      • Quote From iWatchUSleep
        Quote From Thonson

        One of the things that makes Big Priest possible in Wild is the amount of board clearing effects Priest gets year in and year out.  This happens because they don't have a great one in Classic/Basic, so they print one every now and then.  But with all they've got now in Wild they can mass clear and/or stall until they cheat our and then resurrect a ton of big dudes to win.

        Frost Nova may very well limit their ability to print more mass freezes, but I'm honestly okay with that.  Time Warp Mages in Wild are already pretty strong, imagine how much strong they'd get if they had more cheap mass freezes that also came with cool and helpful effects? If they were to do this, the card replacing Frost Nova in Classic woudl have to be the new mass freeze card so that they don't go printing a bunch year after year.

        Uh, no. Big priest and quest mage are currently barely playable in wild. The reason big priest is strong is because Blizzard decided to implement a half-assed resurrection mechanic. Wild priest is at a point where the amount of removals it has are extremely bloated. So much so that insane board clears like Lightbomb and Dragonfire Potion see little to no play.

        I never said either was played a lot, but that doesn't mean they both aren't still strong decks.  Big Priest has dropped in favor because it loses often to the currently preferred Mage deck, Secret Mage.  But both Big Priest and Time Warp Mage with Vargoth and Arcane Giants can still win games.  When I play that deck I often win burning my opponent down before I even need to play the Vargoth, Giants, and Quest turn.

        And yes, the Wild Priest cards are overloaded with board clears.  That was exactly the point I was making and applying to the discussion of Frost Nova and printing more mass freeze cards.

        To be clearer on my BP comment, yes, the rez mechanic is what technically allows it to be a thing since you can rez multilpe copies of a single dead minion.  However, not every game plays out so perfectly and you can't always get early minions on board.  In those cases you often need board clears to survive until you can use the busted rez mechanic to set up a big board that your opponent can't deal with.  At least that has been my personal experience playing the deck in the past.

        • Quote From Thonson

          I never said either was played a lot, but that doesn't mean they both aren't still strong decks.  Big Priest has dropped in favor because it loses often to the currently preferred Mage deck, Secret Mage.  But both Big Priest and Time Warp Mage with Vargoth and Arcane Giants can still win games.  When I play that deck I often win burning my opponent down before I even need to play the Vargoth, Giants, and Quest turn.

          And yes, the Wild Priest cards are overloaded with board clears.  That was exactly the point I was making and applying to the discussion of Frost Nova and printing more mass freeze cards.

          To be clearer on my BP comment, yes, the rez mechanic is what technically allows it to be a thing since you can rez multilpe copies of a single dead minion.  However, not every game plays out so perfectly and you can't always get early minions on board.  In those cases you often need board clears to survive until you can use the busted rez mechanic to set up a big board that your opponent can't deal with.  At least that has been my personal experience playing the deck in the past.

          I never said you said either of those decks are played a lot, which they are though. They're ridiculously overplayed. I said they were barely playable. i.e. not strong at all currently. And they never really were to begin with. Both decks never surpassed tier 2 because they're not consistent enough (especially big priest) and get absolutely slammed on by aggro decks.

          The point I was trying to make is that big priest doesn't run many board clears, only six in fact. (If you even count Spirit Lash as a board clear.) They have a plethora of good ones, yet only these six make the cut. Which is why I feel that if mage gets more freeze cards for standard, wild won't be affected much. They will still only run 4-6 of the best freeze cards, and leave the rest behind. 

          • Quote From iWatchUSleep
            Quote From Thonson

            I never said either was played a lot, but that doesn't mean they both aren't still strong decks.  Big Priest has dropped in favor because it loses often to the currently preferred Mage deck, Secret Mage.  But both Big Priest and Time Warp Mage with Vargoth and Arcane Giants can still win games.  When I play that deck I often win burning my opponent down before I even need to play the Vargoth, Giants, and Quest turn.

            And yes, the Wild Priest cards are overloaded with board clears.  That was exactly the point I was making and applying to the discussion of Frost Nova and printing more mass freeze cards.

            To be clearer on my BP comment, yes, the rez mechanic is what technically allows it to be a thing since you can rez multilpe copies of a single dead minion.  However, not every game plays out so perfectly and you can't always get early minions on board.  In those cases you often need board clears to survive until you can use the busted rez mechanic to set up a big board that your opponent can't deal with.  At least that has been my personal experience playing the deck in the past.

            I never said you said either of those decks are played a lot, which they are though. They're ridiculously overplayed. I said they were barely playable. i.e. not strong at all currently. And they never really were to begin with. Both decks never surpassed tier 2 because they're not consistent enough (especially big priest) and get absolutely slammed on by aggro decks.

            The point I was trying to make is that big priest doesn't run many board clears, only six in fact. (If you even count Spirit Lash as a board clear.) They have a plethora of good ones, yet only these six make the cut. Which is why I feel that if mage gets more freeze cards for standard, wild won't be affected much. They will still only run 4-6 of the best freeze cards, and leave the rest behind. 

            If mage got another decent board freeze I reckon most OTK/combo mages would play at least one copy of it. It's a card type that isn't nearly as saturated as priest mass-removal.

            I also don't think mass-freeze effects are quite analogous to board clears. It's quite possible that decks would run even more than 6 freeze effects, if they could, in order to lock minion-centric decks out of the game entirely with repeat mass-freezes against a full board.

            I'm a bit torn on the issue. On the one hand I think mage's card do an excellent job at outlining the class identity and providing starting players with playable cards, at the same time I think a lot of these cards are so powerful that mage tends to receive rather underwhelming expansion cards year after year. Mage hardly ever gets good burn spells because Fireball and Frostbolt exist. Mage never gets any mass freeze effects because of Frost Nova, Blizzard and Cone of Cold. Mage sometimes gets decent AoE because frankly it doesn't really matter if the class has access to even more board clears, that role is already saturated by the evergreen set.

            • Quote From AliRadicali

              If mage got another decent board freeze I reckon most OTK/combo mages would play at least one copy of it. It's a card type that isn't nearly as saturated as priest mass-removal.

              I also don't think mass-freeze effects are quite analogous to board clears. It's quite possible that decks would run even more than 6 freeze effects, if they could, in order to lock minion-centric decks out of the game entirely with repeat mass-freezes against a full board.

              I'm a bit torn on the issue. On the one hand I think mage's card do an excellent job at outlining the class identity and providing starting players with playable cards, at the same time I think a lot of these cards are so powerful that mage tends to receive rather underwhelming expansion cards year after year. Mage hardly ever gets good burn spells because Fireball and Frostbolt exist. Mage never gets any mass freeze effects because of Frost Nova, Blizzard and Cone of Cold. Mage sometimes gets decent AoE because frankly it doesn't really matter if the class has access to even more board clears, that role is already saturated by the evergreen set.

              Yeah freeze effects are a whole different thing than board clears. If we look at the current solitaire mage in wild though, that deck doesn't even run Cone of Cold. It runs Blizzard, Frost Nova and Ray of Frost. Sure that deck can run even more freeze spells, but at that point it will be at the cost of card draw. If those decks decide to go all in on the freezes and thus become a lot slower in executing their OTK then I feel like they basically concede every other OTK matchup at that point. They will never be fast enough against decks that don't have a board. Which is why I, luckily, don't see a hardcore freeze becoming a thing anytime soon.

  • Side Note: What ever happened to Freeze Shaman?!?!?!  Print a few cards for the archetype and then never mention it again?  Come on, Blizzard!!!

    • Quote From Thonson

      Side Note: What ever happened to Freeze Shaman?!?!?!  Print a few cards for the archetype and then never mention it again?  Come on, Blizzard!!!

      Was a meme, blizzard knew it was a meme, people hated shaman a lot when koft was in the planning phase so they gave the class the worst cards ever printed. 

      • Quote From DoubleSummon
        Quote From Thonson

        Side Note: What ever happened to Freeze Shaman?!?!?!  Print a few cards for the archetype and then never mention it again?  Come on, Blizzard!!!

        Was a meme, blizzard knew it was a meme, people hated shaman a lot when koft was in the planning phase so they gave the class the worst cards ever printed. 

        Actually, Deathseer Thrall was a really nice card that expansion!  As soon as I opened that guy I built an Evolution Shaman deck and played that a LOT!!!  Got over 100 of my first 500 Shaman wins with that deck alone in the first month or so.  Then it suddenly fell off on win rate, around the time that Keleseth decks rose to prominence.

        But meme or not, I would have loved to see more freeze support for Shaman.  #MakeMoorabiGreatForOnce

        • Quote From Thonson
          Quote From DoubleSummon
          Quote From Thonson

          Side Note: What ever happened to Freeze Shaman?!?!?!  Print a few cards for the archetype and then never mention it again?  Come on, Blizzard!!!

          Was a meme, blizzard knew it was a meme, people hated shaman a lot when koft was in the planning phase so they gave the class the worst cards ever printed. 

          Actually, Deathseer Thrall was a really nice card that expansion!  As soon as I opened that guy I built an Evolution Shaman deck and played that a LOT!!!  Got over 100 of my first 500 Shaman wins with that deck alone in the first month or so.  Then it suddenly fell off on win rate, around the time that Keleseth decks rose to prominence.

          But meme or not, I would have loved to see more freeze support for Shaman.  #MakeMoorabiGreatForOnce

          I just made a highlander/evolve homebrew shaman a couple of days ago and have had a pretty good winrate in wild casual. deathseer thrall is a super powerful with brann, and spirit of the frog is a tremendous help.

          Evolve shaman is tons of fun, and I like to go back to it every few months to re-descover the archetype and try it out with new cards.

          Friendly

  • I’d argue that Frost Nova is good where it is. Look at Priest, instead of printing a solid board control card for the basic set, Blizzard has to cope with this by making a token “OP board clear” every expansion for it.

    Similarly with Frost Nova, it allows Blizzard to try more things with the Freeze archetype (for better or for worse) without clogging up a slot in every expansion with a “token mass freeze”

  • Considering how balanced Frost Nova is, I don't think that it may need to be HoF'd since it's not even an evergreen card to goes in each Mage's archetype but only in the control ones. You don't need to print a new kind of freeze effect if you already have a well rounded one in your core set (think of Priest and his need to recieve a new board clear each rotation because it's missing from his Basic/Classic set, because Holy Nova is not a good one).

  • So u propose it rotates so that they print more freeze cards? Why not just leave it sit then? U do realize mage will have a bigger scarier arsenal in wild if they print more freeze cards. Big priest lives from the fact they print aoe cards every year for the class 

  • HoFing freeze to see new freeze has barely any benefit for Standard (average quantity of playable freeze stays the same in time).

    And threatens to make things increasingly worse in Wild.

    New for the sake of new is just a bad policy.

    Also, you HoF only staples or cards that are out of place according to class design: Frost Nova is none of that.

  • Nah.

  • Nope, Frost Nova is fine - at least in my opinion :) 

  • Yes very good