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Hearthstone | Posted by | 6 years, 6 months ago
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Lord Jaraxxus is a dead card

Here are my thoughts, followed by a few questions:

My thoughts:

Lord Jaraxxus is one of the best cards ever printed by Hearthstone. It inspired the creation of all the hero cards that came in the Frozen Throne. It has the best emote of the game during Christmas. Plus, Lord Jaraxxus was Ben Brode's favorite card. Even though Hearthstone created an instant kill through a card, Sacrificial Pact, people still played Lord Jaraxxus. Because the risk was worth the play.

Then came Bloodreaver Gul'dan which outclassed Lord Jaraxxus and players had to wait two years to play Lord Jaraxxus.

Now Lord Jaraxxus is again a deleted card because [Hearthstone Card (zephyrs the great) Not Found] produces Sacrificial Pact and instant kills Lord Jaraxxus. This fact will be true forever in Wild.

A few questions:

If Sacrificial Pact is nerfed, would Lord Jaraxxus see play?

What are the chances that this change may occur in light of the accessibility of Sacrificial Pact to all highlander decks?

 

Thank you for your time. I would have posted this in a card discussion area for Lord Jaraxxus but there is no place to discuss Lord Jaraxxus.

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  • Here are my thoughts, followed by a few questions:

    My thoughts:

    Lord Jaraxxus is one of the best cards ever printed by Hearthstone. It inspired the creation of all the hero cards that came in the Frozen Throne. It has the best emote of the game during Christmas. Plus, Lord Jaraxxus was Ben Brode's favorite card. Even though Hearthstone created an instant kill through a card, Sacrificial Pact, people still played Lord Jaraxxus. Because the risk was worth the play.

    Then came Bloodreaver Gul'dan which outclassed Lord Jaraxxus and players had to wait two years to play Lord Jaraxxus.

    Now Lord Jaraxxus is again a deleted card because [Hearthstone Card (zephyrs the great) Not Found] produces Sacrificial Pact and instant kills Lord Jaraxxus. This fact will be true forever in Wild.

    A few questions:

    If Sacrificial Pact is nerfed, would Lord Jaraxxus see play?

    What are the chances that this change may occur in light of the accessibility of Sacrificial Pact to all highlander decks?

     

    Thank you for your time. I would have posted this in a card discussion area for Lord Jaraxxus but there is no place to discuss Lord Jaraxxus.

    • Quote From ArcticFox

      If Sacrificial Pact is nerfed, would Lord Jaraxxus see play?

      Okay, let's discuss it one step at time.

      First scenario: Sacrificial Pact does not exist - now for Lord Jaraxxus to be played you need a worthy Standard Warlock deck that can actually benefit from him, so let's say a Midrange archetype. However, I don't see one currently and I don't expect it to pop up right now even if Sacrificial Pact is removed from the game. Maybe a good MidLock can be built with the upcoming return of Imp Gang Boss, but in a world where you can get King Krush or even Ragnaros the Firelord for 7 mana + another body, I don't see Lord jaraxxus to be played for 9 mana without having an immediate impact on the game (you technically just pass your turn hoping not to die, which is really unlikely unless you're that fare ahead not to actually need Jaraxxus to win). The biggest problem is that it caps your health total to 15, which is incredibly low since you can't even go back to 30 like with Alexstrasza.

      Second scenario: Sacrificial Pact cannot target Lord Jaraxxus - based on what I previously said, it's not that jaraxxus is OP and Sac Pact is holding him back from being played in every single deck. Right now Jaraxxus wouldn't see play even if Sac Pact wasn't card. Moreover, if you change this interaction you'll render a very situational card even less reliable.

      I'll make an example, even though it's the opposite case, but express very well what I want to say: Holy Wrath is an incredibly bad card with 0% chance to see play in a "normal" paladin deck. 5 mana draw a card and deal some damage is not good, moreover since you have Hammer of Wrath that (on average) does the same for one less mana. The only upside of said spell is the interaction with Shirvallah, the Tiger (and Molten Giant before Rastakhan's Rumble), which can win you games (OTK Pala has been brought several times to several tournaments, so it's more than a simple meme).
      Now, imagine a person saying: "well, Shirvallah, the Tiger totally breaks Holy Wrath; the Devs should make it so that this spell won't be able to target face." The best answer would be: "that's a single interaction that won't stay in Standard forever and that exploits a singular card that wouldn't see any play otherwise."

      That's exactly what Lord Jaraxxus/[Hearthstone Card (Sacrifical Pact) Not Found] is: it's not that the former doesn't see play because of the latter (and because of Zephrys the Great), or better, it's not just because of that.

      The major problem is just that it's a bad card and there are tons of better options: if you want him to see play, you have to make it better overall so that people will accept the risk of being Sac Pact when they play it; and right now, Jaraxxus is by far not worth it.

    • I will say this lord jaxarus is not really weak in the sense that he could provide infinite vaule. Even with sacifical pact to weaken back then, he was played commonly. The problem is as addressed by many people is the fact that warlock really has no cards to deal with the meta in order for him to see play. When blizzards keeps making bs cards such as 4 turn summon a 8/8 and 3/6, it kind is hard to see how jaxarus see play in this meta. I won't say he is weak, I would say this. Some cards are really strong in certain metas, and some cards are good in all types of metas. If the meta was focused on control then I believe jaxarus will see some sort of play. 

       

  • The main problem of Lord Jaraxxus is that 15 HP isn't a safe place anymore.

    Sacrificial pact should be nerfed, because it's a stupid interaction IMHO. But then again, Lord Jaraxxus would be a weak card.

    He needs to be buffed to be playable again: for example, putting his mana cost to (8) would give him the ability to use the hero power the turn he is used, gaining some strenght and becoming nearer to the powerlevel of the other hero cards (all of them have a battlecry of sort).

  • If Jaraxxus didn't see play because of Zephrys, he would've seen play in Rise of Shadows (which he did not).

    The problem with Jaraxxus is that Warlock is terrible, and has been all of 2019. The only viable Warlock deck is Zoolock, and that's worse than Murloc Shaman/Pally and friggin' Zoo Priest of all things. Blizzard has been trying to push this nonsense card cycle thing with Plot Twist and has not worked. If Jaraxxus were to see play, Warlock needs cards to compete with Control Warrior, or at the very least contest aggro decks.

    I am very against buffing Lord Jaraxxus by the way. I'm against buffing any Classic card that saw lots of play, especially a win condition. If you buff a card to the level of stuff that's obviously a little too good, then you now have a card that's too good and will never rotate out. With Thaurisan and N'zoth coming back next week, maybe Jaraxxus has enough good stuff to see play again. Maybe one day we'll get a card that reduces the cost of in-hand demons or something and Jaraxxus becomes really good for an entire Standard meta. I dunno. Buffing is certainly too hasty, though.

  • Jarxxus is playable in arena

  • While Zephrys definitely makes Jaraxxus weaker it's not the reason it's unplayable.

    At this point in time, going to 15 health and getting a 3-attack weapon for 9 mana just isn't good. You're basically putting yourself into OTK range and there's very few instances where going to 15 will save you.

    Furthermore, being at 9-mana means you can't Hero power immediately which means taking turn to actually develop pressure.

    Before Jaraxxus ever sees play again he would

    a) need to be buffed to 8-mana to actually be on a comparable level to the modern standard of value/tempo or

    b) receive some support that makes it actually worth playing him (such as giving demons rush or Lifesteal, Jaina style)

     

     

    Friendly

  • I think it'd be fine if Lord J was reworked along the lines of other hero cards. I realise that heroes/death knights didn't exist when Jaraxxus was printed, but now that they do it'd make a lot more sense if he were reframed as one because that's functionally how the card works. It'd get rid of a bunch of fringe weaknesses of Jaraxxus like: 1. Weakness to Sacrificial Pact. 2. Losing all your armor when you enter Jaraxxus mode(!). 3. getting Jaraxxus pulled by Dirty Rat et al. Points 1 & 2 would go a long way toward making Jaraxxus playable, even if he retains the punishing 15 hp health cap.

     

    Even if we disregard sac pact, I think Lord J would be too weak for 2019 hearthstone without addressing the armor issue, because it's so much easier to burst someone for 15. Any deck with Zephyris is just 5 damage off, after all.

  • First, the interaction for Jaraxxus is definitely strange, but because he is a minion who takes over as your hero and not a hero card, the interaction exists.  Lord J can still be on your board as a minion in some situations (summon through Voidcaller or Skull, or Bane of Doom summoning a random demon), and since he is a minion at heart the spell still works even if he's in your hero slot.

    The best solution for Jaraxxus if they want to make him playable is to make him into a true Hero card.  But they can't really do that either because then one class would always have a hero card in Standard as he is part of the Classic set.  So the other big solution could be blocking that interaction when Jaraxxus is in the hero position, or maybe coding Zeph to not offer Sac Pact when J is in the hero position.  But as others have pointed out, Sac Pact isn't the biggest problem with J.

    I actually still don't have Jaraxxus, despite playing since launch.  I didn't start playing the game a lot until Un'Goro, and then prior to crafting Jaraxxus I opened Bloodreaver Gul'dan as my free log in DK for Frozen Throne.  So as you said in OP, what was the point of Jaraxxus if I had Gul'dan DK?

    Still a really cool card, and whenever I actually open him I'll probably try to build something around him, but who knows if it'll be any good.  Maybe we'll see some support for midrange warlock over the next couple of expansions, then with rotation in April 2020 a deck with Jaraxxus might pop up and be viable.

  • Lord Jaraxxus was a proto-DK since the early days, but that was a time where the powerlevel and speed of gameplay was totally different from now: fixing your max health to 15 was good enough if used as a sort of heal on top of getting infinite value from your HP and a nice weapon to go with. It's not Sacrificial Pact that limit its play, but the fact that Lord J is simply obsolete for today HS.

    In order to fix it they should at last make him 8-mana, so you can HP the same turn you play it or rework it into a true DK by removing the HP limit and adding the 5 armor gain on cast (the weapon will be its battlecry, but it may require a side effect on attack or a buff in stats at this point). But then Warlock would be the only class to have a DK into the Classic Set and it's not something someone may want, to they'll probably be forced to move it into HoF.

  • I doubt zephrys is the real problem.

    In fact Jaraxxus is unplayed since i can't remember when.

    Problem is he is an expensive card, gives very little Tempo swing, and its comeback power is poor.

    He generates both Tempo and Value, but not in the same turn he is played, while also preventing enough survival for the turns he should provide his Tempo and Value.

    Zephrys the Great and Sacrificial Pact are just the cherry on top of that.

    Maybe a buff to 20hp could be all he needs, but risk is you make him a staple card in Standard.

  • I find it hilarious and fun that Jaraxxus can be killed by a 0-mana spell, but I think it's not a fair interaction overall, however rarely it actually happens. If that works, why can't Hungry Crab kill Morgl or Finley (in adventure mode)? Why can't E.M.P. Operative destroy Sir Annoy-O? Why can't Dragonslayer target the various dragon AI bosses we've seen, like Nefarian and Nozari?

    Second point: would changing Sacrificial Pact so it can't kill Jaraxxus make him playable? A teeny bit more than now. Should he get a buff, like minus one mana, or plus 5 armor? I'd like to see that. Such a unique and fun card should be allowed to be viable.

    Does buffing Jarraxus open a whole crazy can of worms for buffing other older cards that have been outclassed by newer cards? Oh yeah. Probably not a good idea.

    • Quote From Pezman

      I find it hilarious and fun that Jaraxxus can be killed by a 0-mana spell, but I think it's not a fair interaction overall, however rarely it actually happens. If that works, why can't Hungry Crab kill Morgl or Finley (in adventure mode)? Why can't E.M.P. Operative destroy Sir Annoy-O? Why can't Dragonslayer target the various dragon AI bosses we've seen, like Nefarian and Nozari?

      Second point: would changing Sacrificial Pact so it can't kill Jaraxxus make him playable? A teeny bit more than now. Should he get a buff, like minus one mana, or plus 5 armor? I'd like to see that. Such a unique and fun card should be allowed to be viable.

      Does buffing Jarraxus open a whole crazy can of worms for buffing other older cards that have been outclassed by newer cards? Oh yeah. Probably not a good idea.

      Because none of your examples is a minion, who transforms the hero through his battlecry. And I don't think Lord J. need a change, he just need more support by new cards.

  • I played over a hundred games of Handlock during Rise of Shadows. Jaraxxus was borderline playable imo. If he was buffed to 8 mana and the interaction was removed, there'd probably be a T2 or T3 Midrange Warlock deck out there. Unfortunately, both of those things have to happen before he becomes playable again.

  • I think, when it comes right down to it, even with out the Sacrificial Pact interaction, Jaraxxus is just too weak when compared to other popular decks in the meta right now. So many decks can burst down 15 points of damage quickly and easily. Literally just finished playing a Warlock running a Jaraxxus deck and my Control Warrior was still able to clear every last one of his 6/6's with little trouble. Ultimately, he just fatigued out. The value provided by the 2-mana 6/6's is really good, but still is not enough against a good control deck, can't handle a powerful aggro deck, and can be easily be taken down by a fast combo deck. It really has no good place in the meta. I don't see Blizzard changing it either. Maybe eventually they'll print some cards that'll offer more support, but generally, they're perfectly content to leave plenty of legendaries hanging with little power or support. Maybe they'll fix the interaction with Sacrificial Pact, but beyond that, Jaraxxus is unlikely to get any help.

  • Look at other classicegendaries. Are they seeing play? No. Will they in the future? Of course! They'll be around forever, this is why they mustn't be buffed. Keeping the classic/basic set balanced is important. Right now I think it's a little weak and makes classes over rely on good expansion cards, which is exactly why warlock is in a tight spot. He also hasn't seen many great cards cause of his top tier hero power, but that's beside the point.

     

    A 1 Mana armor card might make jaraxxus quite good Perhaps a minion that gives armor when cards are played? Or maybe a zero cost spell that turns Mana spent into armor? Or if you summon a demon gain it's attack or health as armor. Any of this is possible in the future and turns Jaraxxus into basically a card as good as Dr. Boom. Sounds fun to me!

    • Quote From Stoo

      Look at other classicegendaries. Are they seeing play? No. Will they in the future? Of course! They'll be around forever, this is why they mustn't be buffed. Keeping the classic/basic set balanced is important. Right now I think it's a little weak and makes classes over rely on good expansion cards, which is exactly why warlock is in a tight spot. He also hasn't seen many great cards cause of his top tier hero power, but that's beside the point.

       

      A 1 Mana armor card might make jaraxxus quite good Perhaps a minion that gives armor when cards are played? Or maybe a zero cost spell that turns Mana spent into armor? Or if you summon a demon gain it's attack or health as armor. Any of this is possible in the future and turns Jaraxxus into basically a card as good as Dr. Boom. Sounds fun to me!

      Jaraxxus hasn't been a playable card in years. That's not just some weird fluke of the meta that will resolve itself automatically, it's a sign that the card has been left in the dust by power creep. Compare him to the recently nerfed Dr. Boom: they both cost 9, but in one case you gain 7 armor and your life points are left alone, in the other case your max health is capped at 15 and you lose all of your armor.

       

      The cost of entering Jaraxxus mode is not proportional to the reward you get from it. Printing weird cards specifically to shore up Jaraxxus' weaknesses is not only transparently bad design, it'd be an admission that Jaraxxus is underpowered, at which point why not try to address that directly? "Keeping the classic set balanced" would necessarily entail an intervention when cards are chronically over- or underpowered.

  • I agree with Lightspoon on this, in terms of armor. Giving him some armor upon play would bring him to the baseline of other Hero Cards in the game, and give him a little extra survival for that first adjustment turn.

    If I recall correctly, heroes generally get 5 armor when they are played, which is alright given that they stick to the 30 health. However, for Jaraxxus I think the optimal buff to make him a bit more playable would be granting 9 armor, equal to his mana cost. Dr. Boom, pre-nerf, granted armor equal to his mana cost, so the "tech" is already there.

    It would not raise his maximum health pool, but would provide a little protection, which is just what he needs. Jaraxxus would still eat any armor the player had prior to the transformation, so it wouldn't go into some intense armor stacking - which is not exactly the Warlock's signature move anyway.

    Perhaps making him an actual Hero Card would also work? Sure, he'd be out of the "x a random demon" pool, but at least he wouldn't be able to be pulled from the hand.

    Staff

  • I opened him recently and in pretty much every game I get the chance to play him, I end up not doing it since there’s too much of a risk of being bursted down, it’d be better to just play the DK instead.

    In wild there’s almost no reason to not just play the DK over him, since you get the 3 damage per turn from the weapon, as well as healing, in the hero power, and the big board of demons and keeping your health means you can actually survive