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Hearthstone | Posted by | 5 years, 11 months ago
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PSA: Don't use Maiev to put Dormant minions back to sleep!

Here's what happened. I'm playing Tempo Demon Hunter (yes, yes, I'm a real bastard, I know, just wanted to grab up some easy ranks before the second nerfs hit). Drop my Imprisoned Antaen on curve (cuz I like winning). He wakes up and sprays his 10 damage all over the place, then my opponent plays Maiev Shadowsong and puts him back to sleep. Two turns later, he wakes back up and guess what? Ten more damage to my enemy's board and face.

Just wanted to put this out there for anyone who hasn't seen this interaction.

On a related note, I've also seen buffed minions put to sleep by Maiev, and wake up with their buffs intact. Also good to know.

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  • Here's what happened. I'm playing Tempo Demon Hunter (yes, yes, I'm a real bastard, I know, just wanted to grab up some easy ranks before the second nerfs hit). Drop my Imprisoned Antaen on curve (cuz I like winning). He wakes up and sprays his 10 damage all over the place, then my opponent plays Maiev Shadowsong and puts him back to sleep. Two turns later, he wakes back up and guess what? Ten more damage to my enemy's board and face.

    Just wanted to put this out there for anyone who hasn't seen this interaction.

    On a related note, I've also seen buffed minions put to sleep by Maiev, and wake up with their buffs intact. Also good to know.

    • Quote From Pezman

      Here's what happened. I'm playing Tempo Demon Hunter (yes, yes, I'm a real bastard, I know, just wanted to grab up some easy ranks before the second nerfs hit). Drop my Imprisoned Antaen on curve (cuz I like winning). He wakes up and sprays his 10 damage all over the place, then my opponent plays Maiev Shadowsong and puts him back to sleep. Two turns later, he wakes back up and guess what? Ten more damage to my enemy's board and face.

      Just wanted to put this out there for anyone who hasn't seen this interaction.

      On a related note, I've also seen buffed minions put to sleep by Maiev, and wake up with their buffs intact. Also good to know.

      To be fair, this interaction was entirely expected. The new dormant minions have a two part ability. One puts them to sleep, one awakens them. If you can put the minion back to a dormant state, the minion text clearly say what will happen when it is awaken again.

      But thanks for the heads up anyway, its always nice to have confirmation ;-)

      Staff
      • Quote From sinti
        Quote From Pezman

        Here's what happened. I'm playing Tempo Demon Hunter (yes, yes, I'm a real bastard, I know, just wanted to grab up some easy ranks before the second nerfs hit). Drop my Imprisoned Antaen on curve (cuz I like winning). He wakes up and sprays his 10 damage all over the place, then my opponent plays Maiev Shadowsong and puts him back to sleep. Two turns later, he wakes back up and guess what? Ten more damage to my enemy's board and face.

        Just wanted to put this out there for anyone who hasn't seen this interaction.

        On a related note, I've also seen buffed minions put to sleep by Maiev, and wake up with their buffs intact. Also good to know.

        To be fair, this interaction was entirely expected. The new dormant minions have a two part ability. One puts them to sleep, one awakens them. If you can put the minion back to a dormant state, the minion text clearly say what will happen when it is awaken again.

        But thanks for the heads up anyway, its always nice to have confirmation ;-)

        Well, I have commented about this under a card's post (Maiev Shadowsong or one of the dormant minions) and said that 'Awake' should have been a keyword just because of this, How Maiev Shadowsong can abuse this effect and that's one of the stuff what it makes Maiev Shadowsong a better card than Spellbreaker and this was one of the first things that I have tested at day 1. I also didn't evalute that it worths to share because for me, it has to be known by everyone. If I knew it needs a confirmation, I would share it at day one. Putting buffed minions on dormant was the 2nd test of mine. I also should have shared that too. Shame on me ! :(

        Quote From KANSAS

        Another interesting thing about Maiev, she doesn't work well with Charge. One time I played Leeroy Jenkins, punched my opponent for 6 damage, then put him asleep to guarantee another attack. But lo and behold two turns later Leeroy awoke and couldn't attack. I am not sure if it is suppose to work like this, but it shouldn't.

        That works well with Kayn Sunfury to set up some weird stuff, it should be about garbage codes of Blizzard, I assume. I mean, it seems like it is not an intended impact. I hope they correct that with some patches.

    • Quote From Pezman

      Here's what happened. I'm playing Tempo Demon Hunter (yes, yes, I'm a real bastard, I know, just wanted to grab up some easy ranks before the second nerfs hit). Drop my Imprisoned Antaen on curve (cuz I like winning). He wakes up and sprays his 10 damage all over the place, then my opponent plays Maiev Shadowsong and puts him back to sleep. Two turns later, he wakes back up and guess what? Ten more damage to my enemy's board and face.

      Just wanted to put this out there for anyone who hasn't seen this interaction.

      I've always assumed that this interaction would happen. After all, the card text for dormant minions always read "when this awakens," so it makes sense that their effects will re-trigger if they awaken from dormancy a second time. But thanks for confirming it, I've actually never seen it played or tried doing it myself (I just crafted Maiev Shadowsong yesterday).

  • I was actually curious if that would happen.  Makes me even more happy that I could run my golden one in my DH build

    Friendly

  • Another interesting thing about [Hearthstone Card (Maiev) Not Found], she doesn't work well with Charge. One time I played Leeroy Jenkins, punched my opponent for 6 damage, then put him asleep to guarantee another attack. But lo and behold two turns later Leeroy awoke and couldn't attack. I am not sure if it is suppose to work like this, but it shouldn't.

    Friendly
    • Quote From KANSAS

      Another interesting thing about Maiev, she doesn't work well with Charge. One time I played Leeroy Jenkins, punched my opponent for 6 damage, then put him asleep to guarantee another attack. But lo and behold two turns later Leeroy awoke and couldn't attack. I am not sure if it is suppose to work like this, but it shouldn't.

      probably spaghetti code. Charge minions are basically hardwired to bypass summoning sickness when they are played or summon. I assume Dormant works differently, as it doesn't actually summon a minion, but rather puts an existing target in timeout. At the same time Dormant is hardwired to always give an awakening minion summoning sickness...and for some reason they didn'T code Charge to bypass that interaction.

      Friendly
    • Quote From KANSAS

      Another interesting thing about Maiev, she doesn't work well with Charge. One time I played Leeroy Jenkins, punched my opponent for 6 damage, then put him asleep to guarantee another attack. But lo and behold two turns later Leeroy awoke and couldn't attack. I am not sure if it is suppose to work like this, but it shouldn't.

      But conversely she does work with Charge - hence the Raging Worgen OTK I got hit with yesterday. For some reason the code interprets that spell as "wake up without any sleeping sickness" so it can hit face immediately regardless of the actual spell text.

      I also tried to use her to keep a dormant minion asleep for another 2 turns to delay its wake-up, but alas that does not work.

      • Quote From ArngrimUndying
        Quote From KANSAS

        Another interesting thing about Maiev, she doesn't work well with Charge. One time I played Leeroy Jenkins, punched my opponent for 6 damage, then put him asleep to guarantee another attack. But lo and behold two turns later Leeroy awoke and couldn't attack. I am not sure if it is suppose to work like this, but it shouldn't.

        But conversely she does work with Charge - hence the Raging Worgen OTK I got hit with yesterday. For some reason the code interprets that spell as "wake up without any sleeping sickness" so it can hit face immediately regardless of the actual spell text.

        I also tried to use her to keep a dormant minion asleep for another 2 turns to delay its wake-up, but alas that does not work.

        I just built an OTK deck featuring Raging Worgen, Maiev Shadowsong, and Charge alongside some buffs and Bloodsworn Mercenary. I played the Worgen, gave it Charge, then put it to sleep. When he woke up he kept the buff and still had Charge, and he could go face. But the copies I summoned with the Mercenary couldn't go face. Weird.

        Friendly
        • Quote From KANSAS
          Quote From ArngrimUndying
          Quote From KANSAS

          Another interesting thing about Maiev, she doesn't work well with Charge. One time I played Leeroy Jenkins, punched my opponent for 6 damage, then put him asleep to guarantee another attack. But lo and behold two turns later Leeroy awoke and couldn't attack. I am not sure if it is suppose to work like this, but it shouldn't.

          But conversely she does work with Charge - hence the Raging Worgen OTK I got hit with yesterday. For some reason the code interprets that spell as "wake up without any sleeping sickness" so it can hit face immediately regardless of the actual spell text.

          I also tried to use her to keep a dormant minion asleep for another 2 turns to delay its wake-up, but alas that does not work.

          I just built an OTK deck featuring Raging Worgen, Maiev Shadowsong, and Charge alongside some buffs and Bloodsworn Mercenary. I played the Worgen, gave it Charge, then put it to sleep. When he woke up he kept the buff and still had Charge, and he could go face. But the copies I summoned with the Mercenary couldn't go face. Weird.

          Seems pretty normal actually.  You played Worgen on a previous turn, gave it Charge, and put it to sleep.

          Charge has two features.

          -Give a friendly minion Charge.

          -Minion can't attack face this turn. Keyword here is THIS TURN.

          Worgen Goes to sleep.

          Wakes up 2 turns later  Still has charge.  But it was played 2 turns ago so code says "good to go buddy, you go face all day!"

          You play bloodsworn merc.  Copies were just summoned this turn.  Due to the way charge (the buff card) is coded, they can immediately attack, but they can't go face because the copies haven't waited a turn.

           

          As an addendum: While I applaud ya'lls creativity.  Gonna be completely frank for a second...

          Why are you trying to abuse charge into OTKs?   You do realize that blizzard is trying to kill charge (the mechanic, not the card)...right?  It's a mechanic that has created way too many problems, the cards it's been associated with have either gotten nerfed into oblivion or been hall of famed.  It's clear as daylight that rush is the replacement to charge, the younger balanced brother of charge.

          If by some chance this Charge OTK stuff becomes even SLIGHTLY relevant, the only thing  you're going to succeed in doing is either getting those associated cards either nerfed, HoF'd or outright reworked.  

          It reminds me of the saying "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus"  (i.e. Blizzard)

          • Quote From Sykomyke
            Quote From KANSAS
            Quote From ArngrimUndying
            Quote From KANSAS

            Show Spoiler
            Another interesting thing about Maiev, she doesn't work well with Charge. One time I played Leeroy Jenkins, punched my opponent for 6 damage, then put him asleep to guarantee another attack. But lo and behold two turns later Leeroy awoke and couldn't attack. I am not sure if it is suppose to work like this, but it shouldn't.

            Show Spoiler

            But conversely she does work with Charge - hence the Raging Worgen OTK I got hit with yesterday. For some reason the code interprets that spell as "wake up without any sleeping sickness" so it can hit face immediately regardless of the actual spell text.

            I also tried to use her to keep a dormant minion asleep for another 2 turns to delay its wake-up, but alas that does not work.

            Show Spoiler
            I just built an OTK deck featuring Raging Worgen, Maiev Shadowsong, and Charge alongside some buffs and Bloodsworn Mercenary. I played the Worgen, gave it Charge, then put it to sleep. When he woke up he kept the buff and still had Charge, and he could go face. But the copies I summoned with the Mercenary couldn't go face. Weird.

            Seems pretty normal actually.  You played Worgen on a previous turn, gave it Charge, and put it to sleep.

            Charge has two features.

            -Give a friendly minion Charge.

            -Minion can't attack face this turn. Keyword here is THIS TURN.

            Worgen Goes to sleep.

            Wakes up 2 turns later  Still has charge.  But it was played 2 turns ago so code says "good to go buddy, you go face all day!"

            You play bloodsworn merc.  Copies were just summoned this turn.  Due to the way charge (the buff card) is coded, they can immediately attack, but they can't go face because the copies haven't waited a turn.

             

            As an addendum: While I applaud ya'lls creativity.  Gonna be completely frank for a second...

            Why are you trying to abuse charge into OTKs?   You do realize that blizzard is trying to kill charge (the mechanic, not the card)...right?  It's a mechanic that has created way too many problems, the cards it's been associated with have either gotten nerfed into oblivion or been hall of famed.  It's clear as daylight that rush is the replacement to charge, the younger balanced brother of charge.

            If by some chance this Charge OTK stuff becomes even SLIGHTLY relevant, the only thing  you're going to succeed in doing is either getting those associated cards either nerfed, HoF'd or outright reworked.  

            It reminds me of the saying "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus"  (i.e. Blizzard)

            Yeah I don't see it taking off in any real way given that it looses hard to other decks prevalent in the meta (Ramp Druid & Res Priest and their walls of big taunts) - I lost to it as I was playing Spell-Only Mage. It just didn't make much sense as a card interaction to me but your explanation is a little clearer.

            However, I 100% believe they should just change that card to "give a minion Rush" and be done with it. 

  • @Sykomyke What do you mean by "abusing" the Charge mechanic? As any other mechanic or synergy, it has its legitimate use in trying to win. Anything that the game code allows (without external programs or hacking) is fair game. There's no difference between not using those cards to play the game and win and having them nerfed or HOF'ed.

    I would even go as far that interactions that are overlooked or rare (Nozdormu skipping turns) are fair game and it's Blizzard's responsibility to fix them.