Hearthstone realm banner
Hearthstone realm avatar Hearthstone realm home

Hearthstone

138 Characters Joined
Create Thread
Hearthstone - Posted by - 5 years, 10 months ago
Fan Creations

Neoguli's Custom Rogue Core Set Changes

Greetings there! I'm here to present you my version of how I would change Rogue's Core Sets. I'm jumping the bandwagon a bit with the changes after seeing some other people trying their reworks and generally accepting classes may need some updates.

This time, I've put crossfire onto Rogue. The reason being they have some of the worst cards in the entire game, and they have a lot of them actually. On the other side of the coin though, they also have cards that warp the entire class around. I'm trying to modify their set to include more cards that can see play whilst retaining the combo playstyle in a healthier way - mainly trying to avoid mana cheating in form of cards like Preparation.

TL;DR Welcome Songhai to Hearthstone. Also welcome the biggest exodus of cards you have ever seen.

Strengths and Weaknesses

Show Spoiler
  • Strengths
    • Burst and Face Damage - Rogues kill you without a sound.
    • Single Target Removal - The bigger they are, the easier it is to strike.
    • Weapons - So many daggers to poison…
    • Card Draw and Generation - Rogues are nimble and energetic, refilling their resources fast. They can pickpocket unaware bachelors.
  • Limitations
    • Buffs - Rogues can amplify their weapons. Not minions, though…
    • Minions - Rogue's minions are more value oriented for the most part, or require a chain of effects to exceed their base uselessness. But that doesn't mean all of their mercenaries are made of sack.
  • Weaknesses
    • Survivability - Once you catch a Rogue, they are done.
    • AoE Removal - Rogues prefer dealing with a single target.

New Sets

Show Spoiler

Basic Set

Classic Set

Explanations

Show Spoiler

WANTED! - a simple card that adds some removal and a Coin for future combos.

Bloodsail Flybooter - is not that great of an early drop, as her early board presence is limited to spamming 1/1s over two turns. However, she still provides with a lot of tokens to use.

Plague Scientist - somebody mentioned they were glad Blizzard added Plaguebringer. And so there he is… except it's his KotFT counterpart. Ultimately a little more balanced, because while cheaper, you need to play something to give Poisonous. It's Combo effect also synergises with the remaining cards.

Interrogate - added as part of my revisory to my Core Set, where I increase the Classic Set to 16 cards and add necessary changes. A simple early game tool that can easily deal with a larger threat for a decently cheap Cost, which should happen most of the time due to your Hero Power.

Hooked Scimitar - adds a strong weapon to pressure damage.

Ruthless Tracker - has an Edwin-esuqe effect, except it's much healthier, as the minion doesn't get big.

Burgle - showcases the thievery side of the class with a simple effect.

Town Plunderer - added as part of my revisory to my Core Set, where I increase the Classic Set to 16 cards and add necessary changes. A very aggressive minion for Pirate decks and a potential refill for Combo decks. A 5 Mana 6/6 is not bad, and the added flexibility from the Combo effect adds to its value as either a Cobra Shot-esque card or a Bladed Lady-esque one.

Whirlkick Master - a huge value generator and keeps Combos going.

Voracity - the highlight of these changes. Allows you to dig for a Combo card that you may need.

Sabotage - added as part of my revisory to my Core Set, where I increase the Classic Set to 16 cards and add necessary changes. I initially excluded this weapon due to it's awkardness with Voracity, but then that card can help you fish for Sabotage, thus give you a minion removal tool in a pinch. Also, due to the Combo effect, Whirlkick Master can give you more tools to fight for the board.

Xaril, Poisoned Mind - a simple and versatile minion.

Hall of Fame

Show Spoiler

Some cards that were considered, but didn't make the cut

Show Spoiler

Counterfeit Coin - was meant to be a Basic card, but thought it was hanging on the knife's edge.

Daring Escape - nah, it was bad and uninteresting.

Doomerang - not sure if it belongs to the Classic set. Could say the same about Shadow Poison though…

[Hearthstone Card (Necrium Apothecaryl) Not Found] - a bit too dangerous to be evergreen. Also not sure if Deathrattle synergy would feel right for the Classic set.

Poisoned Blade - was thinking of adding it to the set, as it feels just about right. The issue is that even if I left it in it's hillarous spot, it still has a threat of uninteractive gameplay, as Rogue players would sometimes stack the weapon. The process is slow, but possibly not optimal.

Sabotage - feels good to be added. Ultimately pulled it off, because it feels so wrong with Sonic Speed.

Shadow Strike - could find a place, but there's no space left.

Thistle Tea - was meant to be instead of Mimic Pod, but maybe copying one card two times is overkill and not as healthy for future sets.

Among many, many, MANY other cards…

Deck Recipes

Show Spoiler
Neoguli's Custom Core Set Changes - Pirate Rogue

Wild · Pirate Rogue · by Neoguli · 5 years, 4 months ago

5,540 Dust 753 0 Copy Deck Code

15 Share

Join the conversation

Sign in to share your thoughts, vote on comments, and connect with the community.

Sign in Create account

Comments

Sort by:
Oldest Newest Top

  • Greetings there! I'm here to present you my version of how I would change Rogue's Core Sets. I'm jumping the bandwagon a bit with the changes after seeing some other people trying their reworks and generally accepting classes may need some updates.

    This time, I've put crossfire onto Rogue. The reason being they have some of the worst cards in the entire game, and they have a lot of them actually. On the other side of the coin though, they also have cards that warp the entire class around. I'm trying to modify their set to include more cards that can see play whilst retaining the combo playstyle in a healthier way - mainly trying to avoid mana cheating in form of cards like Preparation.

    TL;DR Welcome Songhai to Hearthstone. Also welcome the biggest exodus of cards you have ever seen.

    Strengths and Weaknesses

    Show Spoiler
    • Strengths
      • Burst and Face Damage - Rogues kill you without a sound.
      • Single Target Removal - The bigger they are, the easier it is to strike.
      • Weapons - So many daggers to poison…
      • Card Draw and Generation - Rogues are nimble and energetic, refilling their resources fast. They can pickpocket unaware bachelors.
    • Limitations
      • Buffs - Rogues can amplify their weapons. Not minions, though…
      • Minions - Rogue's minions are more value oriented for the most part, or require a chain of effects to exceed their base uselessness. But that doesn't mean all of their mercenaries are made of sack.
    • Weaknesses
      • Survivability - Once you catch a Rogue, they are done.
      • AoE Removal - Rogues prefer dealing with a single target.

    New Sets

    Show Spoiler

    Basic Set

    Classic Set

    Explanations

    Show Spoiler

    WANTED! - a simple card that adds some removal and a Coin for future combos.

    Bloodsail Flybooter - is not that great of an early drop, as her early board presence is limited to spamming 1/1s over two turns. However, she still provides with a lot of tokens to use.

    Plague Scientist - somebody mentioned they were glad Blizzard added Plaguebringer. And so there he is… except it's his KotFT counterpart. Ultimately a little more balanced, because while cheaper, you need to play something to give Poisonous. It's Combo effect also synergises with the remaining cards.

    Interrogate - added as part of my revisory to my Core Set, where I increase the Classic Set to 16 cards and add necessary changes. A simple early game tool that can easily deal with a larger threat for a decently cheap Cost, which should happen most of the time due to your Hero Power.

    Hooked Scimitar - adds a strong weapon to pressure damage.

    Ruthless Tracker - has an Edwin-esuqe effect, except it's much healthier, as the minion doesn't get big.

    Burgle - showcases the thievery side of the class with a simple effect.

    Town Plunderer - added as part of my revisory to my Core Set, where I increase the Classic Set to 16 cards and add necessary changes. A very aggressive minion for Pirate decks and a potential refill for Combo decks. A 5 Mana 6/6 is not bad, and the added flexibility from the Combo effect adds to its value as either a Cobra Shot-esque card or a Bladed Lady-esque one.

    Whirlkick Master - a huge value generator and keeps Combos going.

    Voracity - the highlight of these changes. Allows you to dig for a Combo card that you may need.

    Sabotage - added as part of my revisory to my Core Set, where I increase the Classic Set to 16 cards and add necessary changes. I initially excluded this weapon due to it's awkardness with Voracity, but then that card can help you fish for Sabotage, thus give you a minion removal tool in a pinch. Also, due to the Combo effect, Whirlkick Master can give you more tools to fight for the board.

    Xaril, Poisoned Mind - a simple and versatile minion.

    Hall of Fame

    Show Spoiler

    Some cards that were considered, but didn't make the cut

    Show Spoiler

    Counterfeit Coin - was meant to be a Basic card, but thought it was hanging on the knife's edge.

    Daring Escape - nah, it was bad and uninteresting.

    Doomerang - not sure if it belongs to the Classic set. Could say the same about Shadow Poison though…

    [Hearthstone Card (Necrium Apothecaryl) Not Found] - a bit too dangerous to be evergreen. Also not sure if Deathrattle synergy would feel right for the Classic set.

    Poisoned Blade - was thinking of adding it to the set, as it feels just about right. The issue is that even if I left it in it's hillarous spot, it still has a threat of uninteractive gameplay, as Rogue players would sometimes stack the weapon. The process is slow, but possibly not optimal.

    Sabotage - feels good to be added. Ultimately pulled it off, because it feels so wrong with Sonic Speed.

    Shadow Strike - could find a place, but there's no space left.

    Thistle Tea - was meant to be instead of Mimic Pod, but maybe copying one card two times is overkill and not as healthy for future sets.

    Among many, many, MANY other cards…

    Deck Recipes

    Show Spoiler
    Neoguli's Custom Core Set Changes - Pirate Rogue

    Wild · Pirate Rogue · by Neoguli · 5 years, 4 months ago

    5,540 Dust 753 0 Copy Deck Code

  • I'm honestly not as proud of this set as of my other ones. Feels messy and sometimes rushed, as I usually do them within a span of 3-4 hours. Maybe your feedback will help me with tidying up this mess.

    • Quote From Neoguli

      I'm honestly not as proud of this set as of my other ones. Feels messy and sometimes rushed, as I usually do them within a span of 3-4 hours. Maybe your feedback will help me with tidying up this mess.

      I must concur, i dont like many of those custom cards, Bleeding Blade is probably even worse than Assassin's Blade for example, that is saying something. Hail of Blades is a relatively big AOE, not something Rogue should have in their core kit. Pick Lock does not correspond with how Rogue burgle cards work, that looks more like a Priest card if anything. Sonic Speed, probably little too easy to make gigantic Edwin, and restricts design space in general, bad card to put in Classic.

      I like Shadow Poison and Ruthless Tracker tho, those are great.

      Staff
      • Quote From sinti

        I must concur, i dont like many of those custom cards, Bleeding Blade is probably even worse than Assassin's Blade for example, that is saying something. Hail of Blades is a relatively big AOE, not something Rogue should have in their core kit. Pick Lock does not correspond with how Rogue burgle cards work, that looks more like a Priest card if anything. Sonic Speed, probably little too easy to make gigantic Edwin, and restricts design space in general, bad card to put in Classic.

        I like Shadow Poison and Ruthless Tracker tho, those are great.

        Thanks. I thought Shadow Poison would be also limiting design, but maybe it's not. May change Pick Lock in near future. Hail of Blades is honestly an RNG fiesta, because you can always have a chance to kill a minion that would die from 3 damage anyway.

        I don't like Pick Lock because stealing cards from your opponent's hand/deck is a Priest thing. Rogue just takes random cards from another class.  I also don't like Mimic Pod because it feels weird and memey. I would get rid of those and keep SI:7 Agent and Cold Blood in the classic set.

        Well... no. I don't plan on returning those two cards back to the Classic Set, because Rogue has been historically a bit difficult to balance when they got big minions in early stages. Some are Neutral, and that will never change, but some other minions with incredibly good stats in early game did make it albeit a bit too easy for Rogue to transition into other parts of the game.

        You removed 7 minions and only added 3

        It's part of my plan of shifting Rogue identity a bit. As I mentioned earlier, Rogue has been historically dominant when they had early game minions.

  • I don't like Pick Lock because stealing cards from your opponent's hand/deck is a Priest thing. Rogue just takes random cards from another class.  I also don't like Mimic Pod because it feels weird and memey. I would get rid of those and keep SI:7 Agent and Cold Blood in the classic set.

    Friendly
  • Rogue is by far my favourite class and I have mused on it's design many times over the years. Hopefully my thoughts below help.
    Thoughts on weapon related cards

    Show Spoiler

    I absolutely would have kept Assassin's Blade. Sure it's not competitive good, but it is much better at communicating to new players that rogues want to buff weapons than a 2-durability weapon ever is.

    While here, rogue has never had weapon durability buffs. Thematically that is warrior's thing (they temper the metal to make it stronger) while rogues apply poisons, which have no business increasing durability. As a result I think Shadow Poison wants a tweak.

    I would also keep Perdition's Blade. It is actually a solid card and, most importantly, it fits the rogue identity perfectly. Getting two small, precise hits in quick succession is exactly what rogue tempo tools are all about.

    Single target removal

    Show Spoiler

    You rightly made a point of it being a strength, then proceeded to remove the poisonous cards without any sort of replacement. Even if you had added some single target removal, I would still object to taking out Plaguebringer and Patient Assassin. The latter captures the rogue fantasy so perfectly that it is worth keeping just for that. Perhaps you could give it 2 health though.

    Meanwhile I truly believe Plaguebringer was something Blizzard thought a lot about when they added it 1 year ago. It even lines up perfectly with what you stated for the class identity, by providing single target removal and making use out of low-stat minions. It is also an effect that can have fancy interactions with set cards (e.g. something like Sergeant Sally), meaning it can in principle go in out of the meta with set rotations. Which is exactly what you want from evergreen cards.

    Thoughts on the 'Burst and face damage' strength

    Show Spoiler

    I disagree that this a a rogue strength to begin with: the class has received almost none of it since classic. To me this is one of those quirks of the core sets like damage dealing spells in paladin or the now HoF'd burst damage cards in priest. That is not to say they should be stripped of all of it, but it I think it should be kept to a minimum and certainly shouldn't have a card like Bleeding Blade suggesting to new players that it is what the class is about. 

    I personally would HoF Sinister Strike and make it obvious that rogue 'burst' comes from (buffed) weapons and stealth minions. That would be a unique route to it, helping distinguish classes mechanically while utilising the rogue fantasy.

    Misc thoughts

    Show Spoiler

    I would avoid adding AoE in Hail of Blades, especially something so volatile against boards with more than 3 minions and where you need the random destroy effect to hit a specific target. There's just too much RNG on something that will often make one player feel bad. A few classes should lack strong AoE, and it is fine for rogue to be one of them.

    Once upon a time Headcrack cost 2-mana, and it got nerfed for a reason. Now, HS has come a long way since those days of beta so it is possible it would be fine now, but the hunter hero power is still pretty good so I doubt it. I don't think the game actually wants 2 classes to have persistent 2 damage every turn in the late game, especially now demon hunter is already forcing an aggressive meta. Probably better just to send Headcrack to the HoF.

    Preparation: I understand wanting to HoF it, but now it is a 2 mana discount I personally think it is worth keeping it since it helps establish that rogues do lots of things at once. That said, I do remember calling for it to move to HoF while it was a 3 mana discount so perhaps it should just go to be safe.

    Positive thoughts

    Show Spoiler

    I couldn't agree more on replacing Edwin with Xaril, Poisoned Mind. In 1 card he embodies so much of the class while being a reasonable power level that it really was a beautifully designed card.

    Swashburglar might actually be a bit much for the Classic set, but adding a pirate is definitely right. Rogue has quietly been given a pirate in most sets (way way more than warrior), so it probably should have something to permanently secure the tribe's place in the class.

    I like the extra push for using combo cards. With the smaller pool in Standard it would definitely be interesting to see in which rotations Whirlkick Master pulls her weight.

    Cold Blood: yep. Get rid of it. Rogue has so few minion buffs it has always felt out of place to me.

  • You removed 7 minions and only added 3

    • Quote From AngryShuckie

      I had written a big long response yesterday but that seems to have vanished, so I'll give the concise version:

      Sorry, it was marked as spam, probably due to its length or possibly numerous edits in a quick succession, if that was the case. I restored the post, you may leave it or delete it at your pleasure :)

      Staff
      • Quote From sinti
        Quote From AngryShuckie

        I had written a big long response yesterday but that seems to have vanished, so I'll give the concise version:

        Sorry, it was marked as spam, probably due to its length or possibly numerous edits in a quick succession, if that was the case. I restored the post, you may leave it or delete it at your pleasure :)

        Cheers. I made 1 edit shortly after posting it, which was presumably the trigger since I was able to see it first to edit it.

        I have done what I should have done to begin with and used spoilers to make it more manageable, and deleted the second post.

  • I gotta say I like the idea of [Hearthstone Card (sonic speed) Not Found], although I would have liked to see the art be a blue troll doing a front flip

    Friendly

  • I've currently have saved changes to some cards, aswell as a new card. Debating if the Pirate should be from the game already or should be my new card. Also got a replacement for Mimic Pod, and may reinclude Plaguebringer alongside Assassin's Blade.

    Honestly thanks @AngryShuckie for your deep insight!

    • Quote From Neoguli

      I've currently have saved changes to some cards, aswell as a new card. Debating if the Pirate should be from the game already or should be my new card. Also got a replacement for Mimic Pod, and may reinclude Plaguebringer alongside Assassin's Blade.

      Honestly thanks @AngryShuckie for your deep insight!

      You're welcome.

      Regarding the pirate, if you were to use an existing card I would consider either Cutthroat Buccaneer or Southsea Squidface. Both are a tame power level but have seen some competitive play nonetheless, and have a weapon focus so you keep with the Classic design of the tribe. Beyond that you could choose between a combo or deathrattle effect, both of which are of course ever-present for the class.

      The downside is you don't want to overload the rogue core set with weapon buffs, so maybe a pirate with inter-pirate synergy instead is better. Plus the Squidface would probably want a new name and art if moved to Classic since it is currently very Old Gods-y.

  • Finally added the promised changes.

  • I definitely like the concept on strength and weaknesses, that's a really good way to merge class flavour with game mechanics.

    I like the real plan less.

    In particular, I think cards like SI:7 Agent are the epitome of how Rogue should work: damage from hand, together with moderate board presence. Or sneaky moderate board presence with stealth, which you can setup with Cold Blood. Since the Agent is pretty balanced, he should stay.

    In this concept, I would be ok with Edwin VanCleef leaving Standard, but Xaril is just underwhelming, despite being absolutely cool: the card should probably be buffed to (3), in order to make it decently relevant. At (4) it's basically out of the game (powerlevel has rised a lot since Old Gods).

    I think some of the custom cards are too clunky.

    On a sidenote, I'd love to see a Pirate-y spell that shoots with a pistol for moderate damage [2 for (2)] and as Combo equips a scimitar or a short blade of sorts [a 1/3].

     

  • REVISORY TIME!

    So I'm currently going to revise all my sets and apply necessary changes, aswell as increase the amount of cards in the Classic Set to 16 and adding new deck recipes to Class threads.

    Overall, Rogue was still a hot mess I was not satisfied with, and the amount of comments show people's disbelief in that version aswell. The revision changes have now nearly embraced current Rogue's strengths and weaknesses, switching places with Minions and AoE Removal. On top of that, the class got some new tools to work with that would hopefully improve it's power level, because let's be honest that the previous iterations would've left Rogue in a Priest-like state if they went live. Below are the new cards and changes.