TL;DR: These are my two times 100 cents. I've noted a number of changes to Big Paladin, but am not optimistic about its success. Similarly, the proposed Aggro Paladin could see some changes, but I don't see it being much better than existing aggressive Paladin lists. I believe Paladin is likely to stick to its well-established roots: Libram, Secret, Handbuff, maybe Stealth too.
On the Big Paladin theorycraft, I've made a number of substitutions to consider. I've based my theorycraft on the old Darkmoon build of Duel Paladin that popped up for a time, and taken some inspiration from the theorycraft listed here. For reference, here's my theorycraft: https://playhearthstone.com/deckbuilder?deckcode=AAECAZ8FAuCLBJTkAw72pASLjQT4pAT3pAT0pAT34wOezQPS0QPzuwPKwQP1pASF3gOV%2BQOQ0AMA
Lokholar the Ice Lord, for instance, I think would be better substituted for Runaway Blackwing, which presents a huge threat with potential to completely swing the game in your favour, whereas the former would likely die or come close to dying upon summon. Whether or not Blackwing should be a two-of is a good question, and I suspect it likely will take a slot from Brasswing, which likely has a worse effect overall than Blackwing. I agree with all other minion choices.
As for other substitutions, Noble Mount makes way for Hold the Bridge, which this deck can better take advantage of as you summon a rather sizable number of big minions, and provides a way to stabilise as the game goes on better than Noble Mount does. Speaking of big minions, I've also added Hammer of the Naaru in for Wave of Apathy; it's just a solid card which creates a sizable minion while giving you three-damage pings, whereas the latter has no clear use other than stalling for a turn without offering any immediate way to deal with the board/take the initiative.
I've also substituted Lightbringer's Hammer for Ceremonial Maul which, while it is a worse weapon overall, can give you the same effect Protect the Innocent would have if you healed beforehand. Additionally, should you also stick a heal later in the game, you can get a whopping 15/15 stats in Taunt with the Maul equipped! The synergy with Barricade is also notable. Lightbringer's Hammer might end up being the better choice here, admittedly, but the inability to hit your opponent as well as the heal being conditional on your opponent having played some minion might render the weapon useless in certain matchups.
The biggest issue with my proposed list is the weapon redundancy. There are 7 different weapons in this list, which might lean towards the deck being too clunky. At the same time, the deck has the potential to make effective use of all of these weapons, so I'd want to try before dismissing some of them, if at all. Other, final notes on Big Paladin: Blessed Goods is the best substitution available for Desperate Measures used in Darkmoon Faire's Duel Paladin, and while not as good at providing immediate value, can give you even MORE weapons or other things to create value later on the game, so we'll see how it goes. Also, First Day of School and Hand of A'dal had not yet been nerfed in Darkmoon Duel Paladin, and we also lost Air Raid, so our early-game is overall much worse, and A'dal is much harder to stick early, but is retained due to it providing much needed card draw.
I will say that overall, Big Paladin probably won't succeed in the long run due to the clear difficulties in seizing early-game initiative, which Paladin usually wants to do as a means of contesting the early board, as well as the lack of high quality cards outside of the new additions from Alterac Valley, which are questionable at best (ex. Cavalry Horn takes two turns to activate, Brasswing's effect is mediocre at the mid-to-late game at best, a number of cards are conditional, either on having the big threats online or on healing). It won't stop me from trying, though, and I may be wrong!
Aggro Paladin
Regarding the Aggro Paladin, first: argh, I picked Alliance, so I can't play with the Aggro Pally theorycraft until I finish the honour chain!!! Nonetheless, I will say that I don't think Dun Baldar Bridge would ever see play in an aggro deck, as you're spending a whopping 4-mana for no immediate effect, which offsets any potential benefit the card provides thereafter. Similarly, as the deck tops out at 4-mana, corrupting Day at the Faire will be difficult, and playing its base form is mediocre at best.
I'd probably add the second copy of Goody Two-Shields as well as Saidan the Scarlet and two copies of Blessing of Authority for a bit of a larger buff package to support Saidan and potentially highroll the game to victory, with or without Drek'thar.
Because this deck is focused on Drek'Thar, there are parallels to Tax Paladin in Wild, which uses Call to Arms; I'm not sure that a similar idea would succeed in Standard, however, as you're lacking Call to Arms, and the given list, while I think can make minor improvements, contains a bunch of minions you'd rather not pull from Drek'thar. Notably, you can't run Murgur Murgurgle because, when it shuffles itself into your deck, it disables Drek'thar's effect!
The lack of high quality minions for Drek'thar to pull from suggests moving away from a Drek'Thar package altogether, and at the point, I'd rather be running the well-established Secret, Handbuff, or even Stealth packages that are already known to perform on ladder.
One final note: there are a few avenues for improvement to existing Libram, Secret, Handbuff, and Stealth lists that I won't go into here, but I feel already exhibit more potential than the proposed lists. Then again, we've seen these lists in action during Stormwind, and the new meta might be such that these archetypes disappear. Given how often Libram has stuck around, however, and the sheer power demonstrated by other aggressive lists this expansion, such as Secret and Handbuff, which have both been consistent laddering choices, they seem like the better lists to build on and improve rather than attempt anything novel offered by Alterac Valley.
If you actually read this whole post, which I made only because of my excessive devotion to and interest in Traditional Hearthstone and love for Paladin, then thanks!
They definitely occupy a strange space. If you're more casual about the game you might never complete the legendary questline that would get you the golden copy of the second one, so for those players there's something intuitive about having Drek'thar and Vanndar work like any other legendary from a pack. But for many players who will complete it (but who can't possibly get 7200 honor in the next 3-4 days), it presents a certain duplicate protection problem.
For folks who don't care about golden cards, you could always just dust the golden copy when you get it. Then at least you still net one legendary from the quest (even though technically you're getting less dust on net).
That's a fair assessment. I just find the demon seed as a whole to be a rather un-fun part of hearthstone, regardless of the mode it's played in. I can deal with the other quests to some degree and don't mind their strength now that most have been tuned. (mage is still kinda nuts but at least slow enough to give you a chance). But the demon seed just circumvents mechanics entirely which...makes me extremely frustrated with the meta.
So I chose the Horde and got Drek'thar. Today in a Fireside Gathering I opened a normal copy of Vanndar. I feel like this shouldn't happen since we will get both Legendaries anyway, as long as we complete the Questline. So, was i scammed or will I get a full dust refund? Feels like a wasted Legendary
You can open drekthar/Vandar from packs and unlike Korak theyre not desenchantable for full dust, deqpirz that the questline will give you the other one gold (+one of them diamond later on for evryone)
For 6 drop that has a condition attached to it, this card sure look underwhelming. Even after it's nerf, ruin runner is still a better than this and that card don't see play nowadays need better stat line in my opinion.
Build a Snowman should be useful in a meta that cares more about value and minion combat and gaining slow advantages over the course of the game. In other words: it's a very good Arena card, but not likely to see play in Constructed.
Because midrange can never possibly exist in constructed? OK ...
With a combination of both fated and and overwhelm he doesn't need to level up to be useful and yeah hush do counter him, just at did Nasus, that did not stop Tresh/Nasus from become tier 1.
Ultimately it's going to depend on your deck building if you go all in on Pantheon then yeah, Hush/Minimorph are going to be your bane but if your deck has other win cons then those cards become manageable ( but still very infuriating ).
Let's be real: neighter Against the Odds nor Freed Colossus are really good cards or would have been good even if they were realeased earlier.
Pantheon looks good for 4 mana but it is too easy to shut down in order to be one's key wincondition. Together with Camphor, the Doubt i can see the Pantheon archetype working out although I most likely would just pick up the fated units and play TaricPoppy around the rally tribal.
And it's not only because bandle City is very strong of a Region but because we less and less play "normal" cards with average powerlevel anymore because the options improved and the average powerlevel of cards played risen with it
I am not sure if there will be a way to fix that issue by anything but a rotation where only a subset of cards remain legal
I see pantheon realistically level on turn 7 on turn 7 mana efficientcy is still not irrelevant but starts to become irrelevant.
Having to spend more mana than the opponent doesn't feel good but is not too bad eighter and since Targon most likely will become more relevant you get Hushed instead and trade down anyways
Mantle of Ignition has incredible defensive properties. One priest opponent was buffing his all board and "Holy Fire"'ing my board for 5 Mana Deal 15 Damage, Heal for 15
Am I just undervalueing something or is Shield Vault the only actually viable card out of these 4 cards?
Like Pantheon really doesn't impress me especially because he levels pretty late and will just get minimorphed in the majority of cases and the rest of the cards just look... underwhelming to me
It's not that other cards are bad, it's that Bandlewood cards are just too good. They are all super effective, have bonus conditions, can usually cantrip or replace themselves in some ways. I honestly just think that the game got turned on it's side with the original Targon release. Targon changed the game from resource management into value management (with the Invoke keyword) and the game has been exacerbated ever since. Bandlewood naturally has more value and efficiency because it's the newest expansion. I could go on and on, but suffice to say in a single word what is occurring: Powercreep.
Unfortunately for this card, even a 5 mana 8/8 windfury that require you to have less than half your health gone may not reach far enough to swing the board for you. In most cases whenever you drop this low, you're either going to die the following turn, or you need to clear board to even stand a chance at survival, and this card having no taunt will not prevent your face from getting dead.
As a tempo option, its only fitting place is in a Vanndar deck, or zoolock, where half health is not impossible by turn 5.
If only this had lifesteal instead of windfury. Oh well, we can all dream cant we?
Paladin and Priest can easily give this lifesteal if below 15 health, and swing back to near full (the new paladin card and the priest apotheosis card.
Am I just undervalueing something or is Shield Vault the only actually viable card out of these 4 cards?
Like Pantheon really doesn't impress me especially because he levels pretty late and will just get minimorphed in the majority of cases and the rest of the cards just look... underwhelming to me
It still feels a little underwhelming given that Ruin Runner is a better card without conditions but still it has important keywords that scale greatly with buffs that the deck it will be played in has
Paladins Bring Big Holy Buffs to Fractured in Alterac Valley - Hearthstone Card Review & Theorycraft Deck
TL;DR: These are my two times 100 cents. I've noted a number of changes to Big Paladin, but am not optimistic about its success. Similarly, the proposed Aggro Paladin could see some changes, but I don't see it being much better than existing aggressive Paladin lists. I believe Paladin is likely to stick to its well-established roots: Libram, Secret, Handbuff, maybe Stealth too.
Proposed changes to Big Paladin:
- 1x Runaway Blackwing for Lokholar the Ice Lord
- 2x Hold the Bridge for 2x Noble Mount
- 2x Hammer of the Naaru for 2x Wave of Apathy
- 2x Ceremonial Maul for 2x Lightbringer's Hammer
Proposed changes to Aggro Paladin:
- 1x Goody Two-Shields and Saidan the Scarlet for 2x Dun Baldar Bridge
- 2x Blessing of Authority for 2x Day at the Faire
Big Paladin
On the Big Paladin theorycraft, I've made a number of substitutions to consider. I've based my theorycraft on the old Darkmoon build of Duel Paladin that popped up for a time, and taken some inspiration from the theorycraft listed here. For reference, here's my theorycraft: https://playhearthstone.com/deckbuilder?deckcode=AAECAZ8FAuCLBJTkAw72pASLjQT4pAT3pAT0pAT34wOezQPS0QPzuwPKwQP1pASF3gOV%2BQOQ0AMA
Lokholar the Ice Lord, for instance, I think would be better substituted for Runaway Blackwing, which presents a huge threat with potential to completely swing the game in your favour, whereas the former would likely die or come close to dying upon summon. Whether or not Blackwing should be a two-of is a good question, and I suspect it likely will take a slot from Brasswing, which likely has a worse effect overall than Blackwing. I agree with all other minion choices.
As for other substitutions, Noble Mount makes way for Hold the Bridge, which this deck can better take advantage of as you summon a rather sizable number of big minions, and provides a way to stabilise as the game goes on better than Noble Mount does. Speaking of big minions, I've also added Hammer of the Naaru in for Wave of Apathy; it's just a solid card which creates a sizable minion while giving you three-damage pings, whereas the latter has no clear use other than stalling for a turn without offering any immediate way to deal with the board/take the initiative.
I've also substituted Lightbringer's Hammer for Ceremonial Maul which, while it is a worse weapon overall, can give you the same effect Protect the Innocent would have if you healed beforehand. Additionally, should you also stick a heal later in the game, you can get a whopping 15/15 stats in Taunt with the Maul equipped! The synergy with Barricade is also notable. Lightbringer's Hammer might end up being the better choice here, admittedly, but the inability to hit your opponent as well as the heal being conditional on your opponent having played some minion might render the weapon useless in certain matchups.
The biggest issue with my proposed list is the weapon redundancy. There are 7 different weapons in this list, which might lean towards the deck being too clunky. At the same time, the deck has the potential to make effective use of all of these weapons, so I'd want to try before dismissing some of them, if at all. Other, final notes on Big Paladin: Blessed Goods is the best substitution available for Desperate Measures used in Darkmoon Faire's Duel Paladin, and while not as good at providing immediate value, can give you even MORE weapons or other things to create value later on the game, so we'll see how it goes. Also, First Day of School and Hand of A'dal had not yet been nerfed in Darkmoon Duel Paladin, and we also lost Air Raid, so our early-game is overall much worse, and A'dal is much harder to stick early, but is retained due to it providing much needed card draw.
I will say that overall, Big Paladin probably won't succeed in the long run due to the clear difficulties in seizing early-game initiative, which Paladin usually wants to do as a means of contesting the early board, as well as the lack of high quality cards outside of the new additions from Alterac Valley, which are questionable at best (ex. Cavalry Horn takes two turns to activate, Brasswing's effect is mediocre at the mid-to-late game at best, a number of cards are conditional, either on having the big threats online or on healing). It won't stop me from trying, though, and I may be wrong!
Aggro Paladin
Regarding the Aggro Paladin, first: argh, I picked Alliance, so I can't play with the Aggro Pally theorycraft until I finish the honour chain!!! Nonetheless, I will say that I don't think Dun Baldar Bridge would ever see play in an aggro deck, as you're spending a whopping 4-mana for no immediate effect, which offsets any potential benefit the card provides thereafter. Similarly, as the deck tops out at 4-mana, corrupting Day at the Faire will be difficult, and playing its base form is mediocre at best.
I'd probably add the second copy of Goody Two-Shields as well as Saidan the Scarlet and two copies of Blessing of Authority for a bit of a larger buff package to support Saidan and potentially highroll the game to victory, with or without Drek'thar.
Because this deck is focused on Drek'Thar, there are parallels to Tax Paladin in Wild, which uses Call to Arms; I'm not sure that a similar idea would succeed in Standard, however, as you're lacking Call to Arms, and the given list, while I think can make minor improvements, contains a bunch of minions you'd rather not pull from Drek'thar. Notably, you can't run Murgur Murgurgle because, when it shuffles itself into your deck, it disables Drek'thar's effect!
The lack of high quality minions for Drek'thar to pull from suggests moving away from a Drek'Thar package altogether, and at the point, I'd rather be running the well-established Secret, Handbuff, or even Stealth packages that are already known to perform on ladder.
One final note: there are a few avenues for improvement to existing Libram, Secret, Handbuff, and Stealth lists that I won't go into here, but I feel already exhibit more potential than the proposed lists. Then again, we've seen these lists in action during Stormwind, and the new meta might be such that these archetypes disappear. Given how often Libram has stuck around, however, and the sheer power demonstrated by other aggressive lists this expansion, such as Secret and Handbuff, which have both been consistent laddering choices, they seem like the better lists to build on and improve rather than attempt anything novel offered by Alterac Valley.
If you actually read this whole post, which I made only because of my excessive devotion to and interest in Traditional Hearthstone and love for Paladin, then thanks!
Paladins Bring Big Holy Buffs to Fractured in Alterac Valley - Hearthstone Card Review & Theorycraft Deck
Paladin got some really sweet cards in this set, especially Lightforged Cariel, can't wait to play with it!
How to Create a Private Fireside Gathering to Open Card Packs for a New Hearthstone Expansion - TITANS
They definitely occupy a strange space. If you're more casual about the game you might never complete the legendary questline that would get you the golden copy of the second one, so for those players there's something intuitive about having Drek'thar and Vanndar work like any other legendary from a pack. But for many players who will complete it (but who can't possibly get 7200 honor in the next 3-4 days), it presents a certain duplicate protection problem.
For folks who don't care about golden cards, you could always just dust the golden copy when you get it. Then at least you still net one legendary from the quest (even though technically you're getting less dust on net).
Hearthstone's Battle for Alterac Valley Event Has Begun In Earnest - Legendary Questline In-Game, Earlier Honor Gains Not Being Counted
Earned 950 honor points before the legendary quest started, but no exams for me next week. Still hurts though.
Diablo in Duels
That's a fair assessment. I just find the demon seed as a whole to be a rather un-fun part of hearthstone, regardless of the mode it's played in. I can deal with the other quests to some degree and don't mind their strength now that most have been tuned. (mage is still kinda nuts but at least slow enough to give you a chance). But the demon seed just circumvents mechanics entirely which...makes me extremely frustrated with the meta.
Hearthstone's Upcoming Alterac Valley Faction War Legendary Questline Requires Over 300 Games to Get Golden Card Rewards
So I chose the Horde and got Drek'thar. Today in a Fireside Gathering I opened a normal copy of Vanndar. I feel like this shouldn't happen since we will get both Legendaries anyway, as long as we complete the Questline. So, was i scammed or will I get a full dust refund? Feels like a wasted Legendary
How to Create a Private Fireside Gathering to Open Card Packs for a New Hearthstone Expansion - TITANS
Pretty sure but not 100% positive you can d/e the one you opened.
How to Create a Private Fireside Gathering to Open Card Packs for a New Hearthstone Expansion - TITANS
You can open drekthar/Vandar from packs and unlike Korak theyre not desenchantable for full dust, deqpirz that the questline will give you the other one gold (+one of them diamond later on for evryone)
Hope they will change this, but i have my doubts
Paladins Bring Big Holy Buffs to Fractured in Alterac Valley - Hearthstone Card Review & Theorycraft Deck
100% correct predictions.
New Targon Spell - Against the Odds
This get one star for flavor but seriously don't run this.
New Targon Card - Camphor, the Doubt
For 6 drop that has a condition attached to it, this card sure look underwhelming. Even after it's nerf, ruin runner is still a better than this and that card don't see play nowadays need better stat line in my opinion.
Stormwind Duels Meta Update #7 - Best 12-Win Hearthstone Duels Decks for All Classes in December Week 1
Exactly!
Mages Are Going Big on Spells in Fractured in Alterac Valley - Hearthstone Card Review & Theorycraft Deck
Because midrange can never possibly exist in constructed? OK ...
Pantheon: New Targon Champion Reveal - 5 New Runeterra Cards Revealed for Magic Misadventures
With a combination of both fated and and overwhelm he doesn't need to level up to be useful and yeah hush do counter him, just at did Nasus, that did not stop Tresh/Nasus from become tier 1.
Ultimately it's going to depend on your deck building if you go all in on Pantheon then yeah, Hush/Minimorph are going to be your bane but if your deck has other win cons then those cards become manageable ( but still very infuriating ).
Pantheon: New Targon Champion Reveal - 5 New Runeterra Cards Revealed for Magic Misadventures
Let's be real: neighter Against the Odds nor Freed Colossus are really good cards or would have been good even if they were realeased earlier.
Pantheon looks good for 4 mana but it is too easy to shut down in order to be one's key wincondition. Together with Camphor, the Doubt i can see the Pantheon archetype working out although I most likely would just pick up the fated units and play Taric Poppy around the rally tribal.
And it's not only because bandle City is very strong of a Region but because we less and less play "normal" cards with average powerlevel anymore because the options improved and the average powerlevel of cards played risen with it
I am not sure if there will be a way to fix that issue by anything but a rotation where only a subset of cards remain legal
Pantheon: New Targon Champion Reveal - 5 New Runeterra Cards Revealed for Magic Misadventures
I see pantheon realistically level on turn 7 on turn 7 mana efficientcy is still not irrelevant but starts to become irrelevant.
Having to spend more mana than the opponent doesn't feel good but is not too bad eighter and since Targon most likely will become more relevant you get Hushed instead and trade down anyways
Stormwind Duels Meta Update #7 - Best 12-Win Hearthstone Duels Decks for All Classes in December Week 1
Mantle of Ignition has incredible defensive properties. One priest opponent was buffing his all board and "Holy Fire"'ing my board for 5 Mana Deal 15 Damage, Heal for 15
Pantheon: New Targon Champion Reveal - 5 New Runeterra Cards Revealed for Magic Misadventures
It's not that other cards are bad, it's that Bandlewood cards are just too good. They are all super effective, have bonus conditions, can usually cantrip or replace themselves in some ways. I honestly just think that the game got turned on it's side with the original Targon release. Targon changed the game from resource management into value management (with the Invoke keyword) and the game has been exacerbated ever since. Bandlewood naturally has more value and efficiency because it's the newest expansion. I could go on and on, but suffice to say in a single word what is occurring: Powercreep.
Pantheon: New Targon Champion Reveal - 5 New Runeterra Cards Revealed for Magic Misadventures
Pantheon's theme is definitely one of the best LoL champions themes.
Pantheon: New Targon Champion Reveal - 5 New Runeterra Cards Revealed for Magic Misadventures
Targon does have ways to give their unit's spell shield and even if he get's minimorphed you are still paying 6 mana to get rid of a 4 drop.
New Neutral Minion - Lokholar, the Ice Lord
Was looking for this comment
Pantheon: New Targon Champion Reveal - 5 New Runeterra Cards Revealed for Magic Misadventures
Am I just undervalueing something or is Shield Vault the only actually viable card out of these 4 cards?
Like Pantheon really doesn't impress me especially because he levels pretty late and will just get minimorphed in the majority of cases and the rest of the cards just look... underwhelming to me
Turbo C'Thun Tower - Alterac Theorycraft
and if Balinda draws 2 C'thun Spells...
Group Therapy! Need to blow off some steam? Mega salty? Here's the place!
A shaman just played 76 cards, he "randomly" discovered, against me in a single game. Yeah sure, thanks for nothing.
New Targon Card - Camphor, the Doubt
This... actually looks not too bad.
It still feels a little underwhelming given that Ruin Runner is a better card without conditions but still it has important keywords that scale greatly with buffs that the deck it will be played in has