With each new set released the complexity of the core LOR experience (eternal) increases.
More variable, more interactions, more champions, old decks get better, new decks are born and everything in between.
But standard is just that, literally a handful of 4 decks that are top tier, will always be top tier, and there are no balance changes that can freshen up a rigid format because there aren't enough variables to work off of.
The reality is that standard is an experiment, an attempt to appease pro players doing there 3 deck rotation ladder grind, and a way of bringing back snap players who get scared by complexity.
But you see core LOR still exists, it didn't go anywhere, it didn't stop functioning, and it didn't dissappear.
And any attempts to turn a blind eye to the superior core format of the game will only end up hurting it in the long run.
I mean for me, while I don't think the deck is winning hard against anyone else most likely, hero power druid is basically an instant loss if you play anything resembling control. They gain so much life that you can't actually work through their armor, and they do it while slamming your face and/or removing any threat you put on the board. I would not be surprised if the deck loses to a lot of the top dogs in the meta but for my shitty Tess rogue and things like it, I don't know how to handle the amount of armor and damage they get entirely for free every turn.
If it were up to me its most likely DK cards need some looking at. Frost aggro and unholy can easily pick apart most decks but I feel the biggest problem here is that I can't see it ever changing its list, or gets weaker than aggro decks from other classes. Not sure this is where team5 wants the class to go.
Meanwhile blood DK changes like 5 cards max and is still currently the best old-school control deck around, and I can't see it ever be topped. I mean, 2 mana gain 10 health + draw a card. What other control deck can top cards like that. Blood DK is practically what odd warrior was doing in its time.
We can disagree about the candidates from nerfs, but whatever it is it'll likely be from DK.
Just a comment on your quip with kangor. Cant say I agree, mostly because I havent really been seeing much kangor decks. But from the little Ive seen, most aggro decks can easily wipe that deck way before turn 6 and control dont really have any issues with leaving kangor up for a few turns.
Its in the same vein as chadlock, draw the nuts and you're likely going to win. But miss even one AoE along the way and you're practically dead to aggro, which incidentally is nearly everywhere. Its a good deck, but not oppressively good.
I totally get the DK decks being frustrating. I think that comes mostly from the fact that because DK is still new, it didn't lose anything of value with the rotation. It still has it's core cards along with all the new things it gets to play with. I went to "update" my Even DK and there wasn't much to be added... in fact, I added nothing so far from Festival.
For DK I am sure that it will be so oppressive while the meta is leveling out after the rotation that Team 5 will HAVE to do something about it.
Sounds like you dealing with a bug coz Kangor doesn't go back to hand if there's no minions in hand, at least that how I've experienced games.
Personally Kangor doesn't bother me but I've only played against it twice so not enough data to make an objective opinion.
Right now I'm only struggling against already refined decks like Frost DK coz they lost nothing. Aggro Pure Paladin is also a pain coz I feel the deck just got better. At the time of writing, Paladin is no. 1 but the best deck isn't running Kangor.
As for nerfs, it's tough to say what exactly is a problem as the meta is still quite fresh so I'll give some card opinions in the next week or so.
I think you're right. I did Twisting Nether because my opponent's hand was empty.. but it went back anyway. That DOES sound like a bud since it's text specifically calls out "SWAP".
That being said, it is still super annoying to continually pump out lifestealing minions that preserve the mid-end game and allows them to get set up for the combo/control fight
Neat idea! For some reason my brain keeps telling me this should be a rare and the art isn't a 100% match as you can see the "leaf arrow", but only one character gets hit. Still a solid 4 star contender for me.
AeroJulwin
The Priest card looks really cool, but you'd need a token with a different art piece for it (or rather find a new art piece for "Harmonic" and use your current one for "Dissonant"). I agree about the shark not being overly exciting. Also thanks for your feedback, I found it to be very useful!
Wailor
Amazing design, I really like it. Strong 5 star vibes for me, I'll need to see the rest of the field first though.
linkblade91
Ooof this will be hard to rate. Creativity and design = 5 stars. Playability in the actual game? Horrible. You'll probably get 4 stars from me because you made me smile.
Demonxz95
This is in a weird place between stage 1 having a super hard to meet condition and stage 2 being absolutely busted. Have you considered giving it 2 or 3 attack / cost? That might make it easier to balance.
If it were up to me its most likely DK cards need some looking at. Frost aggro and unholy can easily pick apart most decks but I feel the biggest problem here is that I can't see it ever changing its list, or gets weaker than aggro decks from other classes. Not sure this is where team5 wants the class to go.
Meanwhile blood DK changes like 5 cards max and is still currently the best old-school control deck around, and I can't see it ever be topped. I mean, 2 mana gain 10 health + draw a card. What other control deck can top cards like that. Blood DK is practically what odd warrior was doing in its time.
We can disagree about the candidates from nerfs, but whatever it is it'll likely be from DK.
Just a comment on your quip with kangor. Cant say I agree, mostly because I havent really been seeing much kangor decks. But from the little Ive seen, most aggro decks can easily wipe that deck way before turn 6 and control dont really have any issues with leaving kangor up for a few turns.
Its in the same vein as chadlock, draw the nuts and you're likely going to win. But miss even one AoE along the way and you're practically dead to aggro, which incidentally is nearly everywhere. Its a good deck, but not oppressively good.
Sounds like you dealing with a bug coz Kangor doesn't go back to hand if there's no minions in hand, at least that how I've experienced games.
Personally Kangor doesn't bother me but I've only played against it twice so not enough data to make an objective opinion.
Right now I'm only struggling against already refined decks like Frost DK coz they lost nothing. Aggro Pure Paladin is also a pain coz I feel the deck just got better. At the time of writing, Paladin is no. 1 but the best deck isn't running Kangor.
As for nerfs, it's tough to say what exactly is a problem as the meta is still quite fresh so I'll give some card opinions in the next week or so.
I like the concept, but its early-game potential as a difficult-to-remove Windfury minion scares me. May I suggest making the requirement be Mana spent on spells instead? That still makes you work up to it and encourages you too use it in a spell-heavy deck so you can play it early when it's extra valuable, but prevents it from being played on turn 3/4.
linkblade
I personally don't like how direct this synergy is. Printing a card for the sole purpose of increasing the value of an older card doesn't sit right with me. I know Doomhammer is suppose to be a special card, but I just think there's better ways through maybe a hero attack synergy or printing a new version the same way we're used to from the legendary dragons. Other than that it's a well balanced card. Potentially high value, but can't be played too early.
Wailor
I like its functionality. It seems fun and something you could use to your advantage, although I'd argue that doesn't warrant it to be a Legendary. My only concern is that as far as poisons are concerned Swinetusk Shank was probably better, since it gains an extra stat-point for each poison played, while this doesn't.
anchorm4n
P0NG being identical to Annoy-o-Module is something I have an issue with. And I agree with Wailor that these are quite powerful. A good solution to set them apart from Annoy-o-Module and Zilliax could be to reduce their stats + cost (2-cost with half stats seems like the most viable option?) That would reduce their base value and thus focus more on using them as Magnetic upgrades.
Neoguli
I appreciate how you used both new mechanics. The art is great, but as Wailor mentioned, it doesn't fit the expansion that well. I would like for it to stay in FoL because of the new mechanics, but I know art for this expansion is somewhat difficult to come by, so putting it in a different expansion is justifiable. Most certainly since the mechanics have evolved beyond "each turn" and "3 left". For the same reason it should at least be put in the mini-set for FoL.
Also, "2 Arrows left" makes this effectively a Twinspell. That's not a problem, it's like Echo and "Repeatable this turn". My issue with it is that it says "Swaps with each cast" while it will only ever swap once…
I know it's only the second day, but with the fervor of people playing the new decks is all over the place. I can already see problematic cards coming to the table and I am curious as to what other think.
KEEP IN MIND this is not throwing salt around, this is just the community responding to what R&D missed.
I'll got first, Kangor, Dancing King needs to be nerfed. I did a Twisting Nether twice to try and keep it from going back to my opponent's hand and continue giving them more and more lifesteal minions. There is something overlooked on this minion. A good nerf for this would be it can only come back to your hand if there is a minion in it. If there is a situation where you have no cards in hand... it still goes back there. Unless everyone is packing Silence of some kind or Sylvanas, the Accused in every deck. It is brutal. What about anyone else?
So let's break this down I'm tired of winning so I'll open myself up to snipers ^ then inevitable switch decks and go right back to winning again.
- 13 high value one drops every single one has 2 health or more to devalue pings like vile feast
- mana 2 is all spells and burn. So make it rain plus pirouette is gonna seal the mirror
- you have your burn pkg obviously noxious, demo, decimate
- you have your standard draw so you can sustain in longer games so tenticle and elusive dude
What makes this deck different?
It's basically the simultaneously anti control and anti aggro considerations.
How do we beat vile, how do we best the mirror we have big answers for both, and we don't fall into the trap of mirrai warden, it's a great card but it's not what we want necessarily.
So yeah the only good answer is the hard counter basically freijord shadow that has teched specifically with nothing but chump blockers.
Then once you face the counter you off match and go with a slower counter deck.
So this is how I thought about and built one deck ^ all my decks go through this scrutiny and are similarly sucessful.
Got a good haul of legendaries, just too bad most of them are shit. As usual, Ive rated warrior as pretty much the biggest loser of this expansion (except for one card) and lo and behold Ive opened both legendaries and epics. Very nice.
So my day one experience;
- Ive heard lots of stories about lightshow mage taking center stage but truth be told I've rarely if ever seen one. A few mages, but as expected Lightshow itself is so janky a card that it'll just never win vs board-based decks. Havent lost to a mage at all so far
- Pure pally looking really dangerous. Very consistent, with tons of divine shield, reload, and a few burst options.
- DK, no matter the archetype, is the true winner of this expansion. Ive said before that DK has better cards than everyone else (just cant beat rogue's bs) and rotation didnt hurt it at all. Ive also said that the rune system reduces variety, and here we are, practically facing the same frost aggro and unholy deck, with a few changes. That said, blood control DK is probably the best deck so far (mostly unchanged, to no one's surprise)
- Druid is slow, no matter what you're playing, and it really suffers from the lack of a non-board win con and the loss of Scale of Onyxia. HP druid is simply too inconsistent, slow, and cant save you from swarm decks. I am however convinced that a refined druid deck would probably work tons better than it is now.
- Outcast Dhunter is strong but not that strong. It has lots of power, but it cant beat any control deck and has a tendency to be inconsistent, therefore not very good vs aggro.
- Saw a few warrior decks. There's some hope left for warrior, because its not hopelessly outclassed by everything. Still, I cant ever see this beat DK in any form, so that's probably too bad. Tony warrior is laughably bad...for now
Just my aggro built custom for Eternal as a hyper burn deck and meta Samara daybreak.
Who wins, the crowd waits with bated breath!
Well its obviously me, because I understand the format and I built custom
And the opponent lost because those standard play patterns are boring, predictable, and downright underpowered by eternal standards.
I remain the king of that format always, until Riot formally adopts it, and then the pro players pool their resources to make a tier list.
Even then however with this many decks and card choices I will still rain Supreme.
I love that people keep trying to one up me, I saw someone who was all in on burn literally precious pet nothing but one drops, but he lost too. You can try to counter me, you can try to one up me, you can try to beat me.
But it won't work, I'm the eternal master.
How long will it take before you all get that through your heads?
Eventually you'll all give up and start asking for advice, Nifty how is it that you build different and play different.
You'll get your answers from the eternal master, the only one in LOR right now.
I always like Untapped Potential and have used a previous list. This new list has 4 Flipper Friends. What would you suggest to the other 2 cards to add? Thanks for the list.
Another factor to consider is: would you actually dust the golden cards? Duplicates, sure, but what about the ones that aren't your favorite play style?
It doesn't matter if it's a higher dust value if you are unwilling to part with them.
New Demon Hunter Minion - Eye of Shadow
I don't know why, but there's something off with the artwork of this one - could it be the proportions
Guess they lost their inspiration in the flavor-process: It's hard to makeup flavor text sometimes.
New Shaman Minion - Brass Elemental
Sheesh, they didn't went all-in with the keywords for this one ..!
You handle the water spells. It's got the earth, wind, and fire covered.
New Paladin Spell - Starlight Groove
Ooo - your hero can now have divine shield too ?! - that should be interesting
In space, no one can hear you groove.
My Pack
I think my crown survives longer....
Lor Can't Move Forward Till It Looks Backwards
With each new set released the complexity of the core LOR experience (eternal) increases.
More variable, more interactions, more champions, old decks get better, new decks are born and everything in between.
But standard is just that, literally a handful of 4 decks that are top tier, will always be top tier, and there are no balance changes that can freshen up a rigid format because there aren't enough variables to work off of.
The reality is that standard is an experiment, an attempt to appease pro players doing there 3 deck rotation ladder grind, and a way of bringing back snap players who get scared by complexity.
But you see core LOR still exists, it didn't go anywhere, it didn't stop functioning, and it didn't dissappear.
And any attempts to turn a blind eye to the superior core format of the game will only end up hurting it in the long run.
The Magister's Miracle
New video is up! added to front post
Nerf Predictions for Festival of Legends
I mean for me, while I don't think the deck is winning hard against anyone else most likely, hero power druid is basically an instant loss if you play anything resembling control. They gain so much life that you can't actually work through their armor, and they do it while slamming your face and/or removing any threat you put on the board. I would not be surprised if the deck loses to a lot of the top dogs in the meta but for my shitty Tess rogue and things like it, I don't know how to handle the amount of armor and damage they get entirely for free every turn.
Nerf Predictions for Festival of Legends
I totally get the DK decks being frustrating. I think that comes mostly from the fact that because DK is still new, it didn't lose anything of value with the rotation. It still has it's core cards along with all the new things it gets to play with. I went to "update" my Even DK and there wasn't much to be added... in fact, I added nothing so far from Festival.
For DK I am sure that it will be so oppressive while the meta is leveling out after the rotation that Team 5 will HAVE to do something about it.
Nerf Predictions for Festival of Legends
I think you're right. I did Twisting Nether because my opponent's hand was empty.. but it went back anyway. That DOES sound like a bud since it's text specifically calls out "SWAP".
That being said, it is still super annoying to continually pump out lifestealing minions that preserve the mid-end game and allows them to get set up for the combo/control fight
Numerical Value - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
I'll chime in with some feedback:
Nerf Predictions for Festival of Legends
If it were up to me its most likely DK cards need some looking at. Frost aggro and unholy can easily pick apart most decks but I feel the biggest problem here is that I can't see it ever changing its list, or gets weaker than aggro decks from other classes. Not sure this is where team5 wants the class to go.
Meanwhile blood DK changes like 5 cards max and is still currently the best old-school control deck around, and I can't see it ever be topped. I mean, 2 mana gain 10 health + draw a card. What other control deck can top cards like that. Blood DK is practically what odd warrior was doing in its time.
For starters, we can look into reverting buff for Battlefield Necromancer, and cards like Vampiric Blood, Plague Strike, Frostwyrm's Fury.
We can disagree about the candidates from nerfs, but whatever it is it'll likely be from DK.
Just a comment on your quip with kangor. Cant say I agree, mostly because I havent really been seeing much kangor decks. But from the little Ive seen, most aggro decks can easily wipe that deck way before turn 6 and control dont really have any issues with leaving kangor up for a few turns.
Its in the same vein as chadlock, draw the nuts and you're likely going to win. But miss even one AoE along the way and you're practically dead to aggro, which incidentally is nearly everywhere. Its a good deck, but not oppressively good.
Nerf Predictions for Festival of Legends
Sounds like you dealing with a bug coz Kangor doesn't go back to hand if there's no minions in hand, at least that how I've experienced games.
Personally Kangor doesn't bother me but I've only played against it twice so not enough data to make an objective opinion.
Right now I'm only struggling against already refined decks like Frost DK coz they lost nothing. Aggro Pure Paladin is also a pain coz I feel the deck just got better. At the time of writing, Paladin is no. 1 but the best deck isn't running Kangor.
As for nerfs, it's tough to say what exactly is a problem as the meta is still quite fresh so I'll give some card opinions in the next week or so.
Numerical Value - Card Design Competition Discussion Thread
Also, "2 Arrows left" makes this effectively a Twinspell. That's not a problem, it's like Echo and "Repeatable this turn". My issue with it is that it says "Swaps with each cast" while it will only ever swap once…
Nerf Predictions for Festival of Legends
I know it's only the second day, but with the fervor of people playing the new decks is all over the place. I can already see problematic cards coming to the table and I am curious as to what other think.
KEEP IN MIND this is not throwing salt around, this is just the community responding to what R&D missed.
I'll got first, Kangor, Dancing King needs to be nerfed. I did a Twisting Nether twice to try and keep it from going back to my opponent's hand and continue giving them more and more lifesteal minions. There is something overlooked on this minion. A good nerf for this would be it can only come back to your hand if there is a minion in it. If there is a situation where you have no cards in hand... it still goes back there. Unless everyone is packing Silence of some kind or Sylvanas, the Accused in every deck. It is brutal. What about anyone else?
A Festival of Legends Deck Recipe!
Oh my, that Warlock deck is strong!
I got one down to 4 health, but to no avail.
Quest Trading - Play A Friend!
Battletag: Watchman#11799
Region: NA
Trade only?: Yes, you go first.
Done
Deck Building Case Study - Eternal Aggro
CIDACBQGDYAQMAZJAIAQGAQMAIBAGAYEAMDQGBYIBYCAEBQWEYWTUAABAEAQGKA
So let's break this down I'm tired of winning so I'll open myself up to snipers ^ then inevitable switch decks and go right back to winning again.
- 13 high value one drops every single one has 2 health or more to devalue pings like vile feast
- mana 2 is all spells and burn. So make it rain plus pirouette is gonna seal the mirror
- you have your burn pkg obviously noxious, demo, decimate
- you have your standard draw so you can sustain in longer games so tenticle and elusive dude
What makes this deck different?
It's basically the simultaneously anti control and anti aggro considerations.
How do we beat vile, how do we best the mirror we have big answers for both, and we don't fall into the trap of mirrai warden, it's a great card but it's not what we want necessarily.
So yeah the only good answer is the hard counter basically freijord shadow that has teched specifically with nothing but chump blockers.
Then once you face the counter you off match and go with a slower counter deck.
So this is how I thought about and built one deck ^ all my decks go through this scrutiny and are similarly sucessful.
The Magister's Miracle
New video is up! added to front post :)
Survive the Festival of Legends Launch! Day 1 Decks to Try, Freebies, and Everything You Need to Know About the Expansion
Got a good haul of legendaries, just too bad most of them are shit. As usual, Ive rated warrior as pretty much the biggest loser of this expansion (except for one card) and lo and behold Ive opened both legendaries and epics. Very nice.
So my day one experience;
- Ive heard lots of stories about lightshow mage taking center stage but truth be told I've rarely if ever seen one. A few mages, but as expected Lightshow itself is so janky a card that it'll just never win vs board-based decks. Havent lost to a mage at all so far
- Pure pally looking really dangerous. Very consistent, with tons of divine shield, reload, and a few burst options.
- DK, no matter the archetype, is the true winner of this expansion. Ive said before that DK has better cards than everyone else (just cant beat rogue's bs) and rotation didnt hurt it at all. Ive also said that the rune system reduces variety, and here we are, practically facing the same frost aggro and unholy deck, with a few changes. That said, blood control DK is probably the best deck so far (mostly unchanged, to no one's surprise)
- Druid is slow, no matter what you're playing, and it really suffers from the lack of a non-board win con and the loss of Scale of Onyxia. HP druid is simply too inconsistent, slow, and cant save you from swarm decks. I am however convinced that a refined druid deck would probably work tons better than it is now.
- Outcast Dhunter is strong but not that strong. It has lots of power, but it cant beat any control deck and has a tendency to be inconsistent, therefore not very good vs aggro.
- Saw a few warrior decks. There's some hope left for warrior, because its not hopelessly outclassed by everything. Still, I cant ever see this beat DK in any form, so that's probably too bad. Tony warrior is laughably bad...for now
Meta Decks Won't save You In Eternal
Two aggro decks enter one leaves.
No mismatching no shenanigans.
Just my aggro built custom for Eternal as a hyper burn deck and meta Samara daybreak.
Who wins, the crowd waits with bated breath!
Well its obviously me, because I understand the format and I built custom
And the opponent lost because those standard play patterns are boring, predictable, and downright underpowered by eternal standards.
I remain the king of that format always, until Riot formally adopts it, and then the pro players pool their resources to make a tier list.
Even then however with this many decks and card choices I will still rain Supreme.
I love that people keep trying to one up me, I saw someone who was all in on burn literally precious pet nothing but one drops, but he lost too. You can try to counter me, you can try to one up me, you can try to beat me.
But it won't work, I'm the eternal master.
How long will it take before you all get that through your heads?
Eventually you'll all give up and start asking for advice, Nifty how is it that you build different and play different.
You'll get your answers from the eternal master, the only one in LOR right now.
Untapped Potential Druid
I’d try Innervate, smoothes early curv
Spending Gold: Golden Packs vs Normal Packs
If Im not mistaken, this was confirmed way back when golden packs came along, from a debate about the value of a golden pack bundle.
Quick reddit search: https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/sdj61o/are_the_golden_packs_worth_it_purely_for_dust/
Same goes for class packs as well. If we think about it, it kinda makes sense. Why would blizz allow such profligacy?
Untapped Potential Druid
I always like Untapped Potential and have used a previous list. This new list has 4 Flipper Friends. What would you suggest to the other 2 cards to add? Thanks for the list.
Spending Gold: Golden Packs vs Normal Packs
Another factor to consider is: would you actually dust the golden cards? Duplicates, sure, but what about the ones that aren't your favorite play style?
It doesn't matter if it's a higher dust value if you are unwilling to part with them.
11 Budget Hearthstone Theorycraft Decks for Day 1 of Festival of Legends - Divine Paladin, Secret Rogue, & More!
Is it just me or do these decks have non-Standard cards in them? :(