Happy Birthday to OOC! Glad to be a frequent visitor of this excellent site! I don't post a whole lot, but I'm very much The Lurker Below and I'm always there just waiting to strike. 🙃
[Hearthstone Card (Raza the unchained) Not Found] + [Hearthstone Card (shadowreaper) Not Found] anduin is a misleading comparison: the HP from DK is a specific one, which you can deckbuild around. Finley changes your HP to an unpredictable one: even if a card like raza the unchained was released for Paladin, Finley would still be a weak Highlander card, because of lack proper synergy.
Finley is basically this: moderately random raw power.
That's why an aldor attendant buff would make him substantially better (even if still quite bad, but at least not the worst anymore, arguably).
C'thun was a full-Neutral set, so it's ok that some classes can benefit more than others.
But here we're talking of CLASS Highlander cards. Without a Kazakus available to make up for Class variability.
Inkmaster solia is indeed a good example of a failed Highlander card. But it was correctly replaced with Reno the Relicologist (Mage is currently the class with the most Highlander support, and Reno Mage is a solid meta deck, so it's ok if one of their cards is actually bad).
The suggestions I made were just the minimal buffs that came up to me, as to make them realistic ones, in tune with recent buffs that were actually delivered by the devs. And certainly without the risk of breaking the meta, neither in Standard, nor in Wild. Because the number of options available for Discovery is higher than the available choice.
Surely, an entirely different design could also work. Definitely.
But really, it would be just that easy to make it fair already, especially if we consider it is at (2) probably just because of a potential bias by the community.
I guess I'll hold my hopes for a Rotation buff set!
As you said, Reno here acts as an insurance vs Aggro games, when you fail to outtempo them.
My whole point about the "necessity" word was about making Sir Finley of the Sands as useful as his comrades from Uldum. Thos have immediate impact, Finley cannot, so he could use a better statline (1/3 at (1)), in order to have better chances of tutoring him, as well as having one extra turn on-curve to benefit from the HP (if you manage to mulligan him ofc). Basically ALL classes in Wild can have major benefits from a Highlander list (be it meta or offmeta), while the window for that in Paladin is extremely narrow (and will always be because of the design limitation in the class, ie. no efficient board clears). Paladin does not, despite receiving an additional Highlander card.
Ofc nothing in this game is necessary, not even the game itself.
I also made this thread before having the card, because I already was sure of his outcome. While, on the other hand, I would have crafted him long ago if he was a 1/3 for (1), not because of him being OP in that way, but because I like little cards that require deckbuilding and with subtle impact in the games. Subtle, but no marginal. At (2) he's still subtle, but ecceedingly marginal for a Highlander card. That's a pity.
I guess other obvious comparisons are with Inkmaster Solia, Raza the Chained and Krul the Unshackled, all of which were fine but not exceptional until Anduin DK turned up to break Raza, but I think for the context you have set it is better to look outside of highlander decks altogether and focus on other mechanics granted to several/all classes at once.
Take C'Thun decks for example:
Show Spoiler
Like with highlander decks every class can make a C'Thun deck but some have more tools for it than others while some only have neutrals to work with. In my opinion the fact several classes were in principle put on an equal footing by being given 1 class C'Thun card does not mean there is any need to tweak said cards until they are all about equal in practice. Sure it is a shame that Cult Sorcerer wasn't enough to make C'Thun mage a thing - heck, with Shudderwock and Emeriss around shaman and hunter C'Thun decks might now be stronger than mage ones are despite them not receiving any C'Thun cards themselves - but that doesn't mean Cult Sorcerer is in need of a buff.
Cult Sorcerer looks very different to Sir Finley but there's actually quite a few similarities: both are vanilla-statted 2 drops with up-sides and therefore never actually bad to play. Their issues both stem from the decks surrounding them. For Finley you can only run 1 of each card, he is not reliably drawn early when you can get the most out of him, and when you do draw him paladin is not really best placed to get great long-term value out of him.
Meanwhile the Sorcerer is only great when you have lots of spells, but the entire neutral side of C'Thun decks pushes things in a midrange, minion-centric direction. On top of a delicate deck-building challenge balancing spells and minions, you then need to actually draw the Sorcerer when you have the spells and want to use them, and even then you need to draw C'Thun as well. Finally to top it all off mage card draw isn't any better than paladin's is and mage is just not well suited to making good use of the midrange half of the deck.
Putting it all together Cult Sorcerer and Sir Finley are both in the same boat: they are fundamentally good cards specific to archetypes that other classes just have better tools for. Now I have got here I feel doubly-sure that tweaking them doesn't really save them or their archetypes because their archetypes are the problem in the first place.
In particular for Finley: Paladin's reliance of 2-card removal (because the class de-buffs instead of killing things outright) will always hold back highlander decks which cannot reliably draw both pieces, or have enough of each piece to keep control strategies up for very long. That then pushes you to make something faster to be more reliable (as you did with your aggro/tempo deck) which then reduces Finley's effectiveness.
Soooooooo, in conclusion, if you want to buff Finley in a way that makes him effective you probably want to change him completely to have a fast effect, not just making him cost 1 so a few games you have the hero power on turn 2 because that flies in the face of aggro/tempo game plans anyway unless you get lucky and get the rogue hero power.
---------------------------------
I hope this all makes sense and sees things from a useful new viewpoint. I am sure it wants refining but this is what we have for now.
Happy birthday :) I don't really post much but I always read the hearthstone and runeterra news everyday and support this awesome site as a patreon too!
As a partial OT, following all the replies that argued that sir finley is fine, I actually crafted the card and built this Tempo Reno Paladin in Wild. It doesn't make me change my mind over the necessity of a buff on Sir Finley of the Sands, and the card itself performs quite poorly even in this deck, which is basically built around him (it's Aggro/Tempo because slower Midrange doesn't exist in Wild, not without OTK or so much Value that Paladin can only dream about), but overall the deck is quite good.
While lots of upgraded hero powers are useful for aggressive decks, the whole archetype fairly fundamentally goes against using your hero power lots of times so I'm not too surprised Finley wasn't that powerful in it. I am interested in whether Reno was useful most of the time; I suppose he is at least an insurance policy against aggro decks that get a better start.
The only part of your entire argument I have any real issue with is the use of the word 'necessity'. This may not have been meant too literally, but when discussing an objectively good card when played (vanilla stats with strong long-term up-side) in a game that has many cards that end up weak links even in decks built for them (e.g. Tak Nozwhisker) it is easy to see why few people are more than indifferent about it.
I also find it a bit peculiar that you made this thread before you even had the card to try him for yourself, but that's more of a quiet observation than a complaint.
As you said, Reno here acts as an insurance vs Aggro games, when you fail to outtempo them.
My whole point about the "necessity" word was about making Sir Finley of the Sands as useful as his comrades from Uldum. Thos have immediate impact, Finley cannot, so he could use a better statline (1/3 at (1)), in order to have better chances of tutoring him, as well as having one extra turn on-curve to benefit from the HP (if you manage to mulligan him ofc). Basically ALL classes in Wild can have major benefits from a Highlander list (be it meta or offmeta), while the window for that in Paladin is extremely narrow (and will always be because of the design limitation in the class, ie. no efficient board clears). Paladin does not, despite receiving an additional Highlander card.
Ofc nothing in this game is necessary, not even the game itself.
I also made this thread before having the card, because I already was sure of his outcome. While, on the other hand, I would have crafted him long ago if he was a 1/3 for (1) (in the same way I crafted Elise the Enlightened), not because of him being OP in that way, but because I like little cards that require deckbuilding and with subtle impact in the games. Subtle, but no marginal. At (2) he's still subtle, sometimes game-winning, but ecceedingly marginal for a Highlander card.
I know legendaries could be bad. But this is a Highlander Legendary, not a random The Boogeymonster.
If it turns out to be not good enough even in Wild, it means the card is just not good enough. Cards don't live in the empty space, but in context. And there is no context for which a DISCOVERED HP can carry you for a game, unless it reliably kicks in as soon as possible.
PS: as others have mentioned, all the Uldum Explorers have the same body as their previous iterations. The fact that Finley is different suggests he WAS 1/3 for (1), but he was tuned to (2). Probably because the devs were afraid of giving to the Standard players PTSD after Even/Odd. But obviously that's not the case. It can't be, because of Discover filter (ie can't build proper synergy).
As a partial OT, following all the replies that argued that sir finley is fine, I actually crafted the card and built this Tempo Reno Paladin in Wild. It doesn't make me change my mind over the necessity of a buff on Sir Finley of the Sands, and the card itself performs quite poorly even in this deck, which is basically built around him (it's Aggro/Tempo because slower Midrange doesn't exist in Wild, not without OTK or so much Value that Paladin can only dream about), but overall the deck is quite good.
While lots of upgraded hero powers are useful for aggressive decks, the whole archetype fairly fundamentally goes against using your hero power lots of times so I'm not too surprised Finley wasn't that powerful in it. I am interested in whether Reno was useful most of the time; I suppose he is at least an insurance policy against aggro decks that get a better start.
The only part of your entire argument I have any real issue with is the use of the word 'necessity'. This may not have been meant too literally, but when discussing an objectively good card when played (vanilla stats with strong long-term up-side) in a game that has many cards that end up weak links even in decks built for them (e.g. Tak Nozwhisker) it is easy to see why few people are more than indifferent about it.
I also find it a bit peculiar that you made this thread before you even had the card to try him for yourself, but that's more of a quiet observation than a complaint.
As a partial OT, following all the replies that argued that sir finley is fine, I actually crafted the card and built this Tempo Reno Paladin in Wild. It doesn't make me change my mind over the necessity of a buff on Sir Finley of the Sands, and the card itself performs quite poorly even in this deck, which is basically built around him (it's Aggro/Tempo because slower Midrange doesn't exist in Wild, not without OTK or so much Value that Paladin can only dream about), but overall the deck is quite good.
If the bananas cost 0 for Warrior, if Shaman had a built-in way to generate cards (say every second portal you play gives you another portal) and didn't lose board space, if Druid's spells were discounted by 1 and his minions had +1/+1, we might have an actual decent game mode there. But as it stands, these brawls being so terribly underpowered, combined with the randomness of deck generation (Rogue gets guaranteed all spells, Warrior can have half his deck consists of spells and Fool's Banes), this Brawl is playable with about half the classes.
First of all... FUCK ALL OF YOU MORONS, who just play Secret and Quest Mage, Odd Demon Hunter, Mech Pally, Raza Priest ..... How much of a retard I have to be to just play these fucking decks? What do you have to gain in Wild? Honest question, what is the purpose that you only play these retard decks? Wild could be a fun format but, if just more people were like Roffle and Swaguar.
Thank you for you attention! Have a great weekend everyone, except above decks named player.... fuck you!
Elysiana *shudders* I hated that version of control warrior with a burning passion, it made for such a weird arms race. Anyway nice decks! Jepetto seems like a good fit in maly rogue imo
Happy birthday! It's a great site and it's easy to see all the love and the effort you put into it. This and the awesome community are what makes me come here daily. I'm looking forward for next years to come!
So many experience with OoC has been... interesting to say the least.
At first I was skeptical about the site as there are so many other hearthstone based websites around but the more I used it, the more it became my favorite go to site as it's not just about hearthstone. We can clearly see all the effort and passion the devs have for the card games promoted on this site and I'm sure the whole community look forward to many more happy years with OoC.
I was about to cancel my free trial period on Twitch Prime yesterday.. Twitch was like "hey I don't want you to leave, here is another free month", so I guess I take it, thank you:)
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
Happy Birthday to OOC! Glad to be a frequent visitor of this excellent site! I don't post a whole lot, but I'm very much The Lurker Below and I'm always there just waiting to strike. 🙃
Cheers, and onward!
Petition to buff Sir Finley of the Sands
[Hearthstone Card (Raza the unchained) Not Found] + [Hearthstone Card (shadowreaper) Not Found] anduin is a misleading comparison: the HP from DK is a specific one, which you can deckbuild around. Finley changes your HP to an unpredictable one: even if a card like raza the unchained was released for Paladin, Finley would still be a weak Highlander card, because of lack proper synergy.
Finley is basically this: moderately random raw power.
That's why an aldor attendant buff would make him substantially better (even if still quite bad, but at least not the worst anymore, arguably).
C'thun was a full-Neutral set, so it's ok that some classes can benefit more than others.
But here we're talking of CLASS Highlander cards. Without a Kazakus available to make up for Class variability.
Inkmaster solia is indeed a good example of a failed Highlander card. But it was correctly replaced with Reno the Relicologist (Mage is currently the class with the most Highlander support, and Reno Mage is a solid meta deck, so it's ok if one of their cards is actually bad).
The suggestions I made were just the minimal buffs that came up to me, as to make them realistic ones, in tune with recent buffs that were actually delivered by the devs. And certainly without the risk of breaking the meta, neither in Standard, nor in Wild. Because the number of options available for Discovery is higher than the available choice.
Surely, an entirely different design could also work. Definitely.
But really, it would be just that easy to make it fair already, especially if we consider it is at (2) probably just because of a potential bias by the community.
I guess I'll hold my hopes for a Rotation buff set!
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
You‘re doing a great job ;)
Petition to buff Sir Finley of the Sands
I guess other obvious comparisons are with Inkmaster Solia, Raza the Chained and Krul the Unshackled, all of which were fine but not exceptional until Anduin DK turned up to break Raza, but I think for the context you have set it is better to look outside of highlander decks altogether and focus on other mechanics granted to several/all classes at once.
Take C'Thun decks for example:
Like with highlander decks every class can make a C'Thun deck but some have more tools for it than others while some only have neutrals to work with. In my opinion the fact several classes were in principle put on an equal footing by being given 1 class C'Thun card does not mean there is any need to tweak said cards until they are all about equal in practice. Sure it is a shame that Cult Sorcerer wasn't enough to make C'Thun mage a thing - heck, with Shudderwock and Emeriss around shaman and hunter C'Thun decks might now be stronger than mage ones are despite them not receiving any C'Thun cards themselves - but that doesn't mean Cult Sorcerer is in need of a buff.
Cult Sorcerer looks very different to Sir Finley but there's actually quite a few similarities: both are vanilla-statted 2 drops with up-sides and therefore never actually bad to play. Their issues both stem from the decks surrounding them. For Finley you can only run 1 of each card, he is not reliably drawn early when you can get the most out of him, and when you do draw him paladin is not really best placed to get great long-term value out of him.
Meanwhile the Sorcerer is only great when you have lots of spells, but the entire neutral side of C'Thun decks pushes things in a midrange, minion-centric direction. On top of a delicate deck-building challenge balancing spells and minions, you then need to actually draw the Sorcerer when you have the spells and want to use them, and even then you need to draw C'Thun as well. Finally to top it all off mage card draw isn't any better than paladin's is and mage is just not well suited to making good use of the midrange half of the deck.
Putting it all together Cult Sorcerer and Sir Finley are both in the same boat: they are fundamentally good cards specific to archetypes that other classes just have better tools for. Now I have got here I feel doubly-sure that tweaking them doesn't really save them or their archetypes because their archetypes are the problem in the first place.
In particular for Finley: Paladin's reliance of 2-card removal (because the class de-buffs instead of killing things outright) will always hold back highlander decks which cannot reliably draw both pieces, or have enough of each piece to keep control strategies up for very long. That then pushes you to make something faster to be more reliable (as you did with your aggro/tempo deck) which then reduces Finley's effectiveness.
Soooooooo, in conclusion, if you want to buff Finley in a way that makes him effective you probably want to change him completely to have a fast effect, not just making him cost 1 so a few games you have the hero power on turn 2 because that flies in the face of aggro/tempo game plans anyway unless you get lucky and get the rogue hero power.
---------------------------------
I hope this all makes sense and sees things from a useful new viewpoint. I am sure it wants refining but this is what we have for now.
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
A year already? Blimey that’s gone fast!
I didn’t come over here from the “other site” straight away, but I sure am glad that I did.
Happy birthday and well done to everyone who puts in so much effort for this site. Here’s to the next year
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
Happy birthday :) I don't really post much but I always read the hearthstone and runeterra news everyday and support this awesome site as a patreon too!
Keep up the good work
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
Congrats and big thanks to everyone involved in site. This site and the community is what keeps the game alive for me. Keep up the good work.
Petition to buff Sir Finley of the Sands
As you said, Reno here acts as an insurance vs Aggro games, when you fail to outtempo them.
My whole point about the "necessity" word was about making Sir Finley of the Sands as useful as his comrades from Uldum. Thos have immediate impact, Finley cannot, so he could use a better statline (1/3 at (1)), in order to have better chances of tutoring him, as well as having one extra turn on-curve to benefit from the HP (if you manage to mulligan him ofc). Basically ALL classes in Wild can have major benefits from a Highlander list (be it meta or offmeta), while the window for that in Paladin is extremely narrow (and will always be because of the design limitation in the class, ie. no efficient board clears). Paladin does not, despite receiving an additional Highlander card.
People are judging Sir Finley of the Sands as if he was Baku the Mooneater on steroids, but he's not, because of Battlecry AND Discover.
Ofc nothing in this game is necessary, not even the game itself.
I also made this thread before having the card, because I already was sure of his outcome. While, on the other hand, I would have crafted him long ago if he was a 1/3 for (1) (in the same way I crafted Elise the Enlightened), not because of him being OP in that way, but because I like little cards that require deckbuilding and with subtle impact in the games. Subtle, but no marginal. At (2) he's still subtle, sometimes game-winning, but ecceedingly marginal for a Highlander card.
I know legendaries could be bad. But this is a Highlander Legendary, not a random The Boogeymonster.
If it turns out to be not good enough even in Wild, it means the card is just not good enough. Cards don't live in the empty space, but in context. And there is no context for which a DISCOVERED HP can carry you for a game, unless it reliably kicks in as soon as possible.
PS: as others have mentioned, all the Uldum Explorers have the same body as their previous iterations. The fact that Finley is different suggests he WAS 1/3 for (1), but he was tuned to (2). Probably because the devs were afraid of giving to the Standard players PTSD after Even/Odd. But obviously that's not the case. It can't be, because of Discover filter (ie can't build proper synergy).
Petition to buff Sir Finley of the Sands
While lots of upgraded hero powers are useful for aggressive decks, the whole archetype fairly fundamentally goes against using your hero power lots of times so I'm not too surprised Finley wasn't that powerful in it. I am interested in whether Reno was useful most of the time; I suppose he is at least an insurance policy against aggro decks that get a better start.
The only part of your entire argument I have any real issue with is the use of the word 'necessity'. This may not have been meant too literally, but when discussing an objectively good card when played (vanilla stats with strong long-term up-side) in a game that has many cards that end up weak links even in decks built for them (e.g. Tak Nozwhisker) it is easy to see why few people are more than indifferent about it.
I also find it a bit peculiar that you made this thread before you even had the card to try him for yourself, but that's more of a quiet observation than a complaint.
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
A well-deserved congratulations to everyone in the team!
I'm bored. It's summer. Anyone has any ideas for games for me to play?
I've spend atleast 150 hours in Enter the Gungeon, you should definetly check it out if you like Rogue-lites.
Off-Meta Hearthstone Decks Highlighting Some Underused Rise of Shadows Legendaries
omg i forgot that Jepetto Joybuzz is in the game, and i even have it. Will need more tinkering in the collection, i guess.
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
I've been here since the beta (even though this wasn't recognised somehow) and I love it! You are doing a great job, congratulations!
Petition to buff Sir Finley of the Sands
As a partial OT, following all the replies that argued that sir finley is fine, I actually crafted the card and built this Tempo Reno Paladin in Wild. It doesn't make me change my mind over the necessity of a buff on Sir Finley of the Sands, and the card itself performs quite poorly even in this deck, which is basically built around him (it's Aggro/Tempo because slower Midrange doesn't exist in Wild, not without OTK or so much Value that Paladin can only dream about), but overall the deck is quite good.
Wild · Highlander Paladin · by RavenSunHS · 5 years, 4 months ago
A Cavalcade of Brawls, the 100th Tavern Brawl, Returns as This Week's Brawl
If the bananas cost 0 for Warrior, if Shaman had a built-in way to generate cards (say every second portal you play gives you another portal) and didn't lose board space, if Druid's spells were discounted by 1 and his minions had +1/+1, we might have an actual decent game mode there. But as it stands, these brawls being so terribly underpowered, combined with the randomness of deck generation (Rogue gets guaranteed all spells, Warrior can have half his deck consists of spells and Fool's Banes), this Brawl is playable with about half the classes.
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
I really like this site ... lot better than the "old one" ! Happy birthday !
A Cavalcade of Brawls, the 100th Tavern Brawl, Returns as This Week's Brawl
Yes mage is terrible, way to slow against most.
Group Therapy! Need to blow off some steam? Mega salty? Here's the place!
First of all... FUCK ALL OF YOU MORONS, who just play Secret and Quest Mage, Odd Demon Hunter, Mech Pally, Raza Priest ..... How much of a retard I have to be to just play these fucking decks? What do you have to gain in Wild? Honest question, what is the purpose that you only play these retard decks? Wild could be a fun format but, if just more people were like Roffle and Swaguar.
Thank you for you attention! Have a great weekend everyone, except above decks named player.... fuck you!
:)
Off-Meta Hearthstone Decks Highlighting Some Underused Rise of Shadows Legendaries
Elysiana *shudders* I hated that version of control warrior with a burning passion, it made for such a weird arms race. Anyway nice decks! Jepetto seems like a good fit in maly rogue imo
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
Happy birthday! It's a great site and it's easy to see all the love and the effort you put into it. This and the awesome community are what makes me come here daily. I'm looking forward for next years to come!
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
Happy birthday! Are we getting drunk or what?:)
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
Happy birthday! Looking forward to the special content and site improvements!
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
Congratulations :)
Happy First Birthday Out of Cards - The Celebration Begins Next Week!
So many experience with OoC has been... interesting to say the least.
At first I was skeptical about the site as there are so many other hearthstone based websites around but the more I used it, the more it became my favorite go to site as it's not just about hearthstone. We can clearly see all the effort and passion the devs have for the card games promoted on this site and I'm sure the whole community look forward to many more happy years with OoC.
Happy Birthday!
The Twitch Prime Capsule for Legends of Runeterra Returns! Free Wildcards and an Expedition Token
I was about to cancel my free trial period on Twitch Prime yesterday.. Twitch was like "hey I don't want you to leave, here is another free month", so I guess I take it, thank you:)