If you just play decent midrange/aggro decks celestials just get stomped (from what i experienced).
If your deck is good at open swinging, it is good against celestials-period.
The fact that daybreak, nightfall, and support are ALL bad at that is proably the reason why targon as a region is so unfavoured in high elo, where passing the priority with playing a card can cost you the game and where being not flexible enough is a criteria for a deck to be unplayable.
Celestials are a value, control archetype, they are slow but powerful and especially for unexperienced players this is quite fatal since they usually don't pull a turn 5 leathal off.
I don't really know how invoke cards are witnessed by other high elo players but i would guess the majority doesn't mind them too much.
Ehh how is a big deal getting 7 wins in expeditions?
If i would post every 7 win expedition i do, i would have been banned from this forum for spamming (or annoying with the bragging) if you know how to draft , getting 7 wins is not a big deal. And no, it is not necessary to play targon + invoke spam to get 7 wins (for anyone who still believes that nonsens)
meister I see 10 nerds arguing over the minuitie of a forum post that barely deserved a glance. What would you call it other than buyers remorse you gigantic tool. Lolz, you guys are hilarious every response is just an indictment of how incredibly sad your life is. I pity you truthfully. Tell me I'm wrong.
There is no necessity for nocturne to be a good Champion especially since his aggro combo archetype is already quite op without him being decent. If we nerf stygian onlooker from nightfall +2 attack to nightfall +1 attack this turn we might talk about nocturne buffs but only then...
This Meta seems Arrright to me. While it might be sad for some rampers that their archetype gets dunked, i really like that the meta shifted back to basically pre targon state and that the new mechanics (that are in general not my favourite) did not get too much success however: some of the newly added cards need to be kept an eye on. Especially nightfall and hyper nox+si seems very underestimated to me. Aside from that i think Taric combo is a list to be discovered since it comes with huge gameswinging plays past turn 6 what is just too slow right now but could get more effective with better control options for the early game and p&z's removal getting buffed. What is that region's identity aside of Ezreal after Invalid Deck ID getting erased from the meta.
Okay I know you won't like it to hear but if all in aggro like nox shadowisles burn is stomping these in theory overstatted daybreak units with ease, you cant say that the daybreak archtype works out the way it is intended, in fact its an absolute joke imo.
You can debate about what you do on turn 5 if you reach that point but i doubt you will achieve that against current top tier aggro lists ...
I think that your list is very unrefined for now and that there is much potential for improvement.
First of all: get rid of that pointless Porofly! Not only is a 1 mana 1/1 spellshield quite weak, it also disrupts your allegiance without bringing any benefit to the deck. Also i would suggest to replace Tyari the Traveler with Young Witch which is a great card unlike tyari who can't even convince me in expeditions. Also i can't recommend playing more than 2 copies of hush!BADCARDNAME Ghost and Fae Guide who are very situational and overall not needed or helpful often enough to run 3. What should you replate the slots with? 3 Flower Child , 2 Deny 3 Greenglade Duo... you know good cards that work
As for Apprehend: it feels alright. I did win a game just by using it for its stun effect, no Darius on board. It's definitely not a 3x, but its not as bad as people are thinking it will be.
Are you aware of the fact that there is already a 1 mana stun card in noxus that nobody bothers playing? If you are really into stunning a unit you should try Decisive Maneuver which can be used in combat to open a breach for overwhelm units that deals a ton of damage if it remains unanswered
A little update about my unranked to master project:
I made it to bronce 2 so far (i know thats very impressive you can congratualte me later ;) )
I see first issues running my semi optimal lists since the netdeck rate is now a stable 90% and i dont expect that to change until diamond. Also players slowly learn the game and i can't go for obvious plays anymore :(
for the assembling of resources i currently run expeditions.
My first run was a solid double 7 win run (for the exp ofc)
the second was meh
the third looks like it will go well
gotta see how much resources ill get from max level vault i hope ill cash in a Katarina soon to build my main deck from rising tides (no its not a yasuo list)
Whoever spend the time to read that semi boring report: have a nice day:)
The reason why nobody bothers playing that card is simple: NOBODY plays a 2 mana slow speed stun that asks you to have Darius and to keep Darius until it resolves to do sth good but not game winning. WHY would anyone play a 2 mana spell which is in 1 out of 20 cases useful?
How do you even want to win with units in a meta with ugin... i mean aurelion ramp and lulu challengers in it?
I am (almost) sorry to call this card straight junk and you have to admit that it doesn't even make sense in darrowing lists since having a second attack phase is quite a meme for ephemeral units isn't it?
Feel free to play it but don't be disappointed if it sucks.
As someone who climbed on his main account high enough i thought it would be a good idea to create a new account in LoR and try some unranked to master within 14 days starting from no collection challenge and what did i experience? Players in iron 4 ALREADY play 80% streamer decks in ranked.
While i still do fine with the spider starter deck I can only imagine how actually new players got to feel when they come to runeterra and run into the same netdecks over and over that they don't stand a cahnce against if they are as clueless as their opponent.
I expected a lot of the starter decks, being played or some suboptimal jank that actual new players come around with. But 80% uninspired copypaste from "pros"? That is really shocking to me and it makes me really sad to see.
This particular ramp deck can actually handle even aggro, due to the absurdly strong healing, as well as midrange blockers. But they do need a bit of a "nut draw" to be able to both ramp into Sol AND handle aggro at the same time.
Against my taric deck this deck has about 35-40% Winrate and given how strong my taric deck is... that % value is kinda still to high given the questionable decisions many players make.
If every ramp player would pilot his pile correctly we would talk about 45% win against a deck that swarms giant elusives onto the battlefield on turn 7 where they might play aurelion too but can't level him before they are already dead
You should not be surprised that people play ramp into x <- any unstopable force.
This deck concept is a popular and successful archetype.
It has always been a thing in many other cardgames like Magic the Gathering (where it also exists right now in the form of ugin ramp).
Ramp is a very easy to play deck and is a capable of scooring high winrates against everything that is not aggro.
I was argueing against the introduction of new ramp cards in freljord because it was obvious for any experienced tcg- player how that would end especially when enormous payoff cards like Aurelion Sol exist
If you want to balance this concept you have to nerf ramp, letting aurelion find a home in SI with thresh who can be played around.
For now you have to play eighter ramp, aggro, a very fast and proably unreliable combo deck or a Challenger deck to destroy their manastones before they do harm.
You have options against ramp into X decks but they are hated in mtg for a reason...
We can talk about removing the mana refill part of the card but given how powerful decks became with the targon expansion I don't see anything below +2+2 permanent for 7 mana being worth it. The majority of players haven't see the true broken stuff that is possible now and i give the community 2-3 weeks to find out about it...
I think that invoke is not op but simply unfun as a mechanic.
It feels like your opponent is pulling the answers he needs out of his a**, if he finds the answers he needs and if he doesn't well it doesnt feel great to win eigther.
Will we see nerfs for invoke? I doubt it. The best decks that ive seen and building had no trouble beating invoke decks unless these pulled answers in 4 of for 4 invokes (what has almost 0% chance).
Aurelion Sol however feels super opressive to play against if your deck is not top tier and i see how this card, which is kinda Ugin, the spiritdragon from MTG in LoR is frustating to face. If he levels the game is over for your opponent , kinda.
There are other problematic cards and decks that we will soon enough complain about *caught Taric but for now i see where the frustration about celestials and Aurelion Sol comes from
Zenith Blade would be a great addition to this deck, it can win games if played on Vi. If you want to go even more into the Vi route you could add Bastion to protect her. Mechanist Zevi also tends to be powerful in these sorts of decks (especially with Rummage).
I played a lot in this expansion so far: Zenith Blade is... a nice concept of a card but doesn't really work against any strong deck right now.
spending 3 mana for 1/2 stats and overwhelm is... good if you should have a huge hitter and cant run Might. Spending 3 mana early for 1/2 is bad and that the buff is slow leaves a lot room for the opponent to counter you with removal (also he will Hush your unit anyways)
This deck however:
1. has a 4 power minion as the biggest hitter
2. wants to get an empty hand for jinx
3. has the strength to have a lot of burst speed cards that enable open attacks that you really dont want to delay with Zenith Blade
I think the point most people are missing here is that there is still a big difference between getting a whole bunch of random but new cards (from packs, chests, etc.), and crafting specific cards. In Hearthstone the first few days of an expansion are exciting (granted you have a reasonable amount of gold to spend on packs) because opening your packs gives you a whole bunch of new cards to play with without burdening you with the choice of which cards to craft, but you can still craft some cards you're missing for decks you're sure you want to play. In LoR, you can only get a small amount of new cards from the region rewards on the first expansion day, and after that you either play your old decks or you use your resources to craft almost an entirely new deck.
That's the problem though, I think most people, myself included, don't want to have to decide so early on which deck they're going to craft. It can be hard to know which cards are going to be good or even which cards are going to be fun for you. I experienced the latter when I crafted a Nautilus deep deck when Rising Tides was released. I thought I was going to enjoy deep decks the most, but I actually got tired of them pretty quickly and instead I enjoyed keg control or twisted fate focussed decks much more.They solved part of the problem with the premade decks in the current labs which allow you to try out some stuff before crafting, but those are still not as fun as making your own decks, playing them and tweaking them as you learn its strengths and weaknesses.
Don't get me wrong, I think LoR does a way better job at being free to play friendly than HS, but so far their expansion launches are just not as exciting as they could be. I think allowing players to hoard some experience could be a possible solution. I don't know about you guys but my weekly vaults have contained almost nothing but shards and wild cards for the past ~2 months, although giving up that free champion wild card every week would also kind of suck. Maybe they could allow you to save the exp that normally goes into your region rewards when you've already completed those, or if you choose not to continue them?
given that the progress is pretty fast in general i would not say that the system needs to be changed. We are 3 days into the expansion and i am already level 20 in targon what is easyly doable if you play some expansions. I know many players dont play expansions but even then... you should be around level 8 at least already with a decent card pool available for being just 2 days into the expansion. After 1 week you should have access to every deck you want to play even if you started from 0 and if that is not generous enough for you... well then you should go play dota :)
The obliterate cards of targon need to be part of the invoke choices therefore its luck dependant if you get one. You can't rely on getting one and turn the invoke vs fiora matchup into a coinflip simulator. That is just unfun for both players
I played Taric yesterday. He leveled up in the start of the attack, but my support unit died on combat? Very confused. Not sure its a bug or a misplay on my part.
Taric doesn't give the immortality buff if he levels during the attack
If you just play decent midrange/aggro decks celestials just get stomped (from what i experienced).
If your deck is good at open swinging, it is good against celestials-period.
The fact that daybreak, nightfall, and support are ALL bad at that is proably the reason why targon as a region is so unfavoured in high elo, where passing the priority with playing a card can cost you the game and where being not flexible enough is a criteria for a deck to be unplayable.
Celestials are a value, control archetype, they are slow but powerful and especially for unexperienced players this is quite fatal since they usually don't pull a turn 5 leathal off.
I don't really know how invoke cards are witnessed by other high elo players but i would guess the majority doesn't mind them too much.
Ehh how is a big deal getting 7 wins in expeditions?
If i would post every 7 win expedition i do, i would have been banned from this forum for spamming (or annoying with the bragging) if you know how to draft , getting 7 wins is not a big deal. And no, it is not necessary to play targon + invoke spam to get 7 wins (for anyone who still believes that nonsens)
You are wrong
There is no necessity for nocturne to be a good Champion especially since his aggro combo archetype is already quite op without him being decent. If we nerf stygian onlooker from nightfall +2 attack to nightfall +1 attack this turn we might talk about nocturne buffs but only then...
This Meta seems Arrright to me. While it might be sad for some rampers that their archetype gets dunked, i really like that the meta shifted back to basically pre targon state and that the new mechanics (that are in general not my favourite) did not get too much success however: some of the newly added cards need to be kept an eye on. Especially nightfall and hyper nox+si seems very underestimated to me. Aside from that i think Taric combo is a list to be discovered since it comes with huge gameswinging plays past turn 6 what is just too slow right now but could get more effective with better control options for the early game and p&z's removal getting buffed. What is that region's identity aside of Ezreal after Invalid Deck ID getting erased from the meta.
Its not expensive to play during targon expansion. Just build an all in spider aggro/burn list and kill your opponent until turn 4.
I didnt see many decks that even stand a chance against a deck that is as fast as this one.
I know that all in aggro is not the most enjoyable deck to play and even less enjoyable to play against but... it works and it is very budget friendly
Okay I know you won't like it to hear but if all in aggro like nox shadowisles burn is stomping these in theory overstatted daybreak units with ease, you cant say that the daybreak archtype works out the way it is intended, in fact its an absolute joke imo.
You can debate about what you do on turn 5 if you reach that point but i doubt you will achieve that against current top tier aggro lists ...
I think that your list is very unrefined for now and that there is much potential for improvement.
First of all: get rid of that pointless Porofly! Not only is a 1 mana 1/1 spellshield quite weak, it also disrupts your allegiance without bringing any benefit to the deck. Also i would suggest to replace Tyari the Traveler with Young Witch which is a great card unlike tyari who can't even convince me in expeditions. Also i can't recommend playing more than 2 copies of hush!BADCARDNAME Ghost and Fae Guide who are very situational and overall not needed or helpful often enough to run 3. What should you replate the slots with? 3 Flower Child , 2 Deny 3 Greenglade Duo... you know good cards that work
Are you aware of the fact that there is already a 1 mana stun card in noxus that nobody bothers playing? If you are really into stunning a unit you should try Decisive Maneuver which can be used in combat to open a breach for overwhelm units that deals a ton of damage if it remains unanswered
A little update about my unranked to master project:
I made it to bronce 2 so far (i know thats very impressive you can congratualte me later ;) )
I see first issues running my semi optimal lists since the netdeck rate is now a stable 90% and i dont expect that to change until diamond. Also players slowly learn the game and i can't go for obvious plays anymore :(
for the assembling of resources i currently run expeditions.
My first run was a solid double 7 win run (for the exp ofc)
the second was meh
the third looks like it will go well
gotta see how much resources ill get from max level vault i hope ill cash in a Katarina soon to build my main deck from rising tides (no its not a yasuo list)
Whoever spend the time to read that semi boring report: have a nice day:)
The reason why nobody bothers playing that card is simple: NOBODY plays a 2 mana slow speed stun that asks you to have Darius and to keep Darius until it resolves to do sth good but not game winning. WHY would anyone play a 2 mana spell which is in 1 out of 20 cases useful?
How do you even want to win with units in a meta with ugin... i mean aurelion ramp and lulu challengers in it?
I am (almost) sorry to call this card straight junk and you have to admit that it doesn't even make sense in darrowing lists since having a second attack phase is quite a meme for ephemeral units isn't it?
Feel free to play it but don't be disappointed if it sucks.
As someone who climbed on his main account high enough i thought it would be a good idea to create a new account in LoR and try some unranked to master within 14 days starting from no collection challenge and what did i experience? Players in iron 4 ALREADY play 80% streamer decks in ranked.
While i still do fine with the spider starter deck I can only imagine how actually new players got to feel when they come to runeterra and run into the same netdecks over and over that they don't stand a cahnce against if they are as clueless as their opponent.
I expected a lot of the starter decks, being played or some suboptimal jank that actual new players come around with. But 80% uninspired copypaste from "pros"? That is really shocking to me and it makes me really sad to see.
Against my taric deck this deck has about 35-40% Winrate and given how strong my taric deck is... that % value is kinda still to high given the questionable decisions many players make.
If every ramp player would pilot his pile correctly we would talk about 45% win against a deck that swarms giant elusives onto the battlefield on turn 7 where they might play aurelion too but can't level him before they are already dead
You should not be surprised that people play ramp into x <- any unstopable force.
This deck concept is a popular and successful archetype.
It has always been a thing in many other cardgames like Magic the Gathering (where it also exists right now in the form of ugin ramp).
Ramp is a very easy to play deck and is a capable of scooring high winrates against everything that is not aggro.
I was argueing against the introduction of new ramp cards in freljord because it was obvious for any experienced tcg- player how that would end especially when enormous payoff cards like Aurelion Sol exist
If you want to balance this concept you have to nerf ramp, letting aurelion find a home in SI with thresh who can be played around.
For now you have to play eighter ramp, aggro, a very fast and proably unreliable combo deck or a Challenger deck to destroy their manastones before they do harm.
You have options against ramp into X decks but they are hated in mtg for a reason...
We can talk about removing the mana refill part of the card but given how powerful decks became with the targon expansion I don't see anything below +2+2 permanent for 7 mana being worth it. The majority of players haven't see the true broken stuff that is possible now and i give the community 2-3 weeks to find out about it...
I think that invoke is not op but simply unfun as a mechanic.
It feels like your opponent is pulling the answers he needs out of his a**, if he finds the answers he needs and if he doesn't well it doesnt feel great to win eigther.
Will we see nerfs for invoke? I doubt it. The best decks that ive seen and building had no trouble beating invoke decks unless these pulled answers in 4 of for 4 invokes (what has almost 0% chance).
Aurelion Sol however feels super opressive to play against if your deck is not top tier and i see how this card, which is kinda Ugin, the spiritdragon from MTG in LoR is frustating to face. If he levels the game is over for your opponent , kinda.
There are other problematic cards and decks that we will soon enough complain about *caught Taric but for now i see where the frustration about celestials and Aurelion Sol comes from
I played a lot in this expansion so far: Zenith Blade is... a nice concept of a card but doesn't really work against any strong deck right now.
spending 3 mana for 1/2 stats and overwhelm is... good if you should have a huge hitter and cant run Might. Spending 3 mana early for 1/2 is bad and that the buff is slow leaves a lot room for the opponent to counter you with removal (also he will Hush your unit anyways)
This deck however:
1. has a 4 power minion as the biggest hitter
2. wants to get an empty hand for jinx
3. has the strength to have a lot of burst speed cards that enable open attacks that you really dont want to delay with Zenith Blade
given that the progress is pretty fast in general i would not say that the system needs to be changed. We are 3 days into the expansion and i am already level 20 in targon what is easyly doable if you play some expansions. I know many players dont play expansions but even then... you should be around level 8 at least already with a decent card pool available for being just 2 days into the expansion. After 1 week you should have access to every deck you want to play even if you started from 0 and if that is not generous enough for you... well then you should go play dota :)
The obliterate cards of targon need to be part of the invoke choices therefore its luck dependant if you get one. You can't rely on getting one and turn the invoke vs fiora matchup into a coinflip simulator. That is just unfun for both players
Taric doesn't give the immortality buff if he levels during the attack