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imgur link (you'll have an easier time browsing the images): https://imgur.com/gallery/QrbLeMC
Redesigned class: https://imgur.com/gallery/wsYBe6N
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Disclaimer: This is a fan project that is completely non-profit, all the art assets belong to Activision Blizzard.
imgur link (you'll have an easier time browsing the images): https://imgur.com/gallery/QrbLeMC
Redesigned class: https://imgur.com/gallery/wsYBe6N
Quote From Devizz UI/UX limitations were always an issue with this I suppose (among other reasons).
Sorry for disturbing quote that is off-topic from your thread but that limitation issue was completely a lie that Blizzard wants players to believe.
UI/UX doesn't even changed a bit and they added Battlegrounds in this UI/UX.
1-) They first said that UI is limiting them to add new play mode, then they've added Tavern Brawl with same UI.
2-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more deckslots - then they've added +9 deckslots with same UI.
3-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more new play modes, then they've added Battlegrounds with same UI.
4-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more classes, Now They are adding Demon Hunter as a new class with same UI.
5-) It is still same UI and they've said at the reveal stream they will add a new game mode at middle year (Check Phase 2 of Year of the Phoenix)
They are still saying that server/UI stuff are limiting them to add more deckslots. These are completely lie. They are just waiting for the right time. If they think they can earn more money; or if they think they will lose clients just because these deckslot issues, They will eat their lie and release more deckslots today. These are marketing lies...
- They have made Ashes of Outland, The Real Warcraft Lore related expansion just because they scared of Legends of Runeterra.
- Riot promised that they will bring new regions to the game which is completely new for card games, so they scared and released Demon Hunter in a rush with the best weapon they have, One of the most iconic Warcraft character Illidan Stormrage with the same limiting UI and stuff.
- They could have made duplication rule changes so much earlier than that, but there was no real threat that has fully free-to-play promises. People collected all cards in 1,5 months in Legends of Runeterra. So Blizzard make rule changes to duplicates for common/rare/epic cards.
Please don't be baited with these lies.
Quote From Almaniarra Quote From Devizz UI/UX limitations were always an issue with this I suppose (among other reasons).
Sorry for disturbing quote that is off-topic from your thread but that limitation issue was completely a lie that Blizzard wants players to believe.
UI/UX doesn't even changed a bit and they added Battlegrounds in this UI/UX.
1-) They first said that UI is limiting them to add new play mode, then they've added Tavern Brawl with same UI.
2-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more deckslots - then they've added +9 deckslots with same UI.
3-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more new play modes, then they've added Battlegrounds with same UI.
4-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more classes, Now They are adding Demon Hunter as a new class with same UI.
5-) It is still same UI and they've said at the reveal stream they will add a new game mode at middle year (Check Phase 2 of Year of the Phoenix)
They are still saying that server/UI stuff are limiting them to add more deckslots. These are completely lie. They are just waiting for the right time. If they think they can earn more money; or if they think they will lose clients just because these deckslot issues, They will eat their lie and release more deckslots today. These are marketing lies...
- They have made Ashes of Outland, The Real Warcraft Lore related expansion just because they scared of Legends of Runeterra.
- Riot promised that they will bring new regions to the game which is completely new for card games, so they scared and released Demon Hunter in a rush with the best weapon they have, One of the most iconic Warcraft character Illidan Stormrage with the same limiting UI and stuff.
- They could have made duplication rule changes so much earlier than that, but there was no real threat that has fully free-to-play promises. People collected all cards in 1,5 months in Legends of Runeterra. So Blizzard make rule changes to duplicates for common/rare/epic cards.
Please don't be baited with these lies.
Fair enough, I was aware of this to an extent, or at the very least considered it a possibility. I mean I work in game dev and I know how things are. With that being said, I think it is easy to assume perspectives here, there might be some mixed truths in such a case.
Quote From Almaniarra
1-) They first said that UI is limiting them to add new play mode, then they've added Tavern Brawl with same UI.
2-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more deckslots - then they've added +9 deckslots with same UI.
3-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more new play modes, then they've added Battlegrounds with same UI.
4-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more classes, Now They are adding Demon Hunter as a new class with same UI.
5-) It is still same UI and they've said at the reveal stream they will add a new game mode at middle year (Check Phase 2 of Year of the Phoenix)
You are aware that all of these involved UI changes, right? They even showed off a bunch of different iterations they went through when deciding how to add Demon Hunter to the class page. Not all UI changes are complete redesigns, but every minor tweak needs to go through testing both so it doesn't break anything and to decide that it is the best direction for them to take something.
The old UI limited them, so they updated it each time after going through no doubt numerous design ideas to settle on the least intrusive, most intuitive change. They're not out to lie to us for no reason, and to assume malice seems ridiculous to me.
On topic, I think this idea for a class is pretty interesting! I've certainly never seen anything quite like it before.
What I would love to hear from you is a description of how you want the class fantasy to come across. What mechanics are important to the class? What do you imagine the class to be good at, and what do you imagine them to be bad at? Right now I see a lot of mechanics I expect - Lifesteal, Freeze, your new keyword - but I don't know what I'm meant to be working towards if I was designing a deck for the class. Do I want to play Control, or are we trying to be Aggro?
Take Unusual Ascended and Infused Deathseeker, for instance. Novel ideas, certainly, but why are they Death Knight cards? Why do Death Knights care about the cost of cards in your hand? Why do they both have opposite conditions to fulfill?
You've mentioned that you aren't too concerned with balancing right now, so I won't nitpick that. I do think some of the designs seem like odd choices though. Banshee Queen Sylvanas, for example, is either a slightly overstatted minion that deals some damage to you - nothing particularly special, but not bad - or a 5 mana 9/8 Lifesteal with no drawback. And the only thing you have to do is kill three minions, something you'd want to be doing anyway.
The biggest concern right now is the Hero Power, in my opinion. The idea of a Hero Power that swaps randomly is fine historically - it's not really any more random than the Shaman Hero Power, which is my least favourite Hero Power but one that exists. What kills it for me is the fact that each Hero Power has a different cost. That's not fun for you or your opponent. Not only can you not predict what you'll be able to do next turn, you can't even plan your plays with your Hero Power in mind, because you don't know what it's going to cost. Unholy Presence would also need to be completely reworked, that effect can never work as a Basic Hero Power - I'd hesitate to have it exist in the game at all - but that's not the core issue of the design. The Hero Power should be three 2-Cost - or I suppose 1-Cost - options, and then it can swap between them randomly still.
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Quote From Almaniarra 1-) They first said that UI is limiting them to add new play mode, then they've added Tavern Brawl with same UI.
2-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more deckslots - then they've added +9 deckslots with same UI.
3-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more new play modes, then they've added Battlegrounds with same UI.
4-) After that, They said that UI is limiting them to add more classes, Now They are adding Demon Hunter as a new class with same UI.
5-) It is still same UI and they've said at the reveal stream they will add a new game mode at middle year (Check Phase 2 of Year of the Phoenix)You are aware that all of these involved UI changes, right? They even showed off a bunch of different iterations they went through when deciding how to add Demon Hunter to the class page. Not all UI changes are complete redesigns, but every minor tweak needs to go through testing both so it doesn't break anything and to decide that it is the best direction for them to take something.
The old UI limited them, so they updated it each time after going through no doubt numerous design ideas to settle on the least intrusive, most intuitive change. They're not out to lie to us for no reason, and to assume malice seems ridiculous to me.
On topic, I think this idea for a class is pretty interesting! I've certainly never seen anything quite like it before.
What I would love to hear from you is a description of how you want the class fantasy to come across. What mechanics are important to the class? What do you imagine the class to be good at, and what do you imagine them to be bad at? Right now I see a lot of mechanics I expect - Lifesteal, Freeze, your new keyword - but I don't know what I'm meant to be working towards if I was designing a deck for the class. Do I want to play Control, or are we trying to be Aggro?
Take Unusual Ascended and Infused Deathseeker, for instance. Novel ideas, certainly, but why are they Death Knight cards? Why do Death Knights care about the cost of cards in your hand? Why do they both have opposite conditions to fulfill?
You've mentioned that you aren't too concerned with balancing right now, so I won't nitpick that. I do think some of the designs seem like odd choices though. Banshee Queen Sylvanas, for example, is either a slightly overstatted minion that deals some damage to you - nothing particularly special, but not bad - or a 5 mana 9/8 Lifesteal with no drawback. And the only thing you have to do is kill three minions, something you'd want to be doing anyway.
The biggest concern right now is the Hero Power, in my opinion. The idea of a Hero Power that swaps randomly is fine historically - it's not really any more random than the Shaman Hero Power, which is my least favourite Hero Power but one that exists. What kills it for me is the fact that each Hero Power has a different cost. That's not fun for you or your opponent. Not only can you not predict what you'll be able to do next turn, you can't even plan your plays with your Hero Power in mind, because you don't know what it's going to cost. Unholy Presence would also need to be completely reworked, that effect can never work as a Basic Hero Power - I'd hesitate to have it exist in the game at all - but that's not the core issue of the design. The Hero Power should be three 2-Cost - or I suppose 1-Cost - options, and then it can swap between them randomly still.
I think there is some truth in what he said related to proper pacing of content/marketing but I completely agree that it is a bit silly to claim that the developers lie at all times. If anything, the publisher might do so and force the devs to withhold game content. It is pretty obvious that the Hearthstone's UI was designed with 9 classes in mind and had to be redesigned if the 10th class were to be introduced.
As for the core class fantasy and the two cards you mentioned - I think it is important in such an early design stage to come up with a wide array of different mechanics and experiment with as many as you possibly could. Then you can nail the fun factor and what works and that is what I tried to do. The very core of the class is to have a more control playstyle (I'd still want to have diversity in terms of playstyle with the class though) and sacrifice one's minions to achieve anything. And also to gradually grow in power, trying to stall.
As for not being able to predict the hero power, what you're saying is true but think of it in a different way - there are 3 possible outcomes so you can somehow predict them and yet you can never be 100% sure what you will get so you constantly have to adapt. The same goes for your opponents, potentially they have to think about not just one play but MULTIPLE ones based on the hero power that you can get. Such a gameplay dynamic is extremely appealing to me from a design standpoint. Also, you have cards like Aspiring Understudy to counter the randomness.
Quote From Devizz As for not being able to predict the hero power, what you're saying is true but think of it in a different way - there are 3 possible outcomes so you can somehow predict them and yet you can never be 100% sure what you will get so you constantly have to adapt. The same goes for your opponents, potentially they have to think about not just one play but MULTIPLE ones based on the hero power that you can get. Such a gameplay dynamic is extremely appealing to me from a design standpoint. Also, you have cards like Aspiring Understudy to counter the randomness.
I understand what you're trying to achieve with the design, I just don't think the result is fun, for either player.
The Shaman Hero Power is already my least favourite, because the randomness inherent in its design doesn't make for fun gameplay. I believe randomness is a core component of Hearthstone, but to have it as a Basic Hero Power, something you'll utilise every time you play as or against a class, is not fun.
To then take the already shaky premise of the Shaman Hero Power, and increase the randomness in such an unfun way - three Hero Powers of differing mana costs and thus power levels - just doesn't seem like fun gameplay to me. Forcing the player to play bad cards in order to somewhat mitigate the randomness doesn't make the idea more appealing, it honestly makes it worse. That's doubling down on and trying to work around a flawed initial idea, in my eyes.
I can try and get behind the idea of three comparably powerful Hero Powers swapping at random - it'd still not be my favourite design idea in the world, but I can see why some people might like that. But currently the randomness is pushed too far.
Quote From ShadowsOfSense Quote From Devizz As for not being able to predict the hero power, what you're saying is true but think of it in a different way - there are 3 possible outcomes so you can somehow predict them and yet you can never be 100% sure what you will get so you constantly have to adapt. The same goes for your opponents, potentially they have to think about not just one play but MULTIPLE ones based on the hero power that you can get. Such a gameplay dynamic is extremely appealing to me from a design standpoint. Also, you have cards like Aspiring Understudy to counter the randomness.
I understand what you're trying to achieve with the design, I just don't think the result is fun, for either player.
The Shaman Hero Power is already my least favourite, because the randomness inherent in its design doesn't make for fun gameplay. I believe randomness is a core component of Hearthstone, but to have it as a Basic Hero Power, something you'll utilise every time you play as or against a class, is not fun.
To then take the already shaky premise of the Shaman Hero Power, and increase the randomness in such an unfun way - three Hero Powers of differing mana costs and thus power levels - just doesn't seem like fun gameplay to me. Forcing the player to play bad cards in order to somewhat mitigate the randomness doesn't make the idea more appealing, it honestly makes it worse. That's doubling down on and trying to work around a flawed initial idea, in my eyes.
I can try and get behind the idea of three comparably powerful Hero Powers swapping at random - it'd still not be my favourite design idea in the world, but I can see why some people might like that. But currently the randomness is pushed too far.
Was wondering what you think about the revamp I suggested.
Unholy Presence must be changed.
Any permanent Attack upgrade to your hero active during your opponent's turn is an automatically irredeemably unacceptable no matter how you design it. It's pretty much an unwritten rule of custom Hearthstone. If for some reason, you really want Attack added to your hero active on your opponent's turn, it needs to temporary in some form.
The basic Hero Power seems way too complicated anyway, and I'd highly suggest a complete overhaul of it.
Quote From Demonxz95 Unholy Presence must be changed.
Any permanent Attack upgrade to your hero active during your opponent's turn is an automatically irredeemably unacceptable no matter how you design it. It's pretty much an unwritten rule of custom Hearthstone. If for some reason, you really want Attack added to your hero active on your opponent's turn, it needs to temporary in some form.
The basic Hero Power seems way too complicated anyway, and I'd highly suggest a complete overhaul of it.
The rotating hero power mechanic is the fundamental core of this design and I really wanted to pursue that - it was the very starting foundation for this class/set of cards. I like the gameplay dynamic of having to constantly predict possible outcomes based on probability and alter the plays based on the result.
As for the clarity of the mechanic, it works just like Dr. Boom, so yeah it is random. Might be ambiguous initially, true but the same can be said about many mechanics in Hearthstone (some truly wacky cards out there), including Dr. Boom. You have to play the card at least once to understand how it works, there are no tooltips that explain how creating a beast for the DK Hunter works, etc.
I don't want the hero power to fundamentally always swap to the same one, by design it is supposed to be random. Then again, I wanted to have a card that allows one to manipulate that randomness if they so wish - one of the cards in the set swaps the hero power. This somewhat manipulates the randomness. There is also a card that changes the random order to a persistent one that can be predicted, allowing for player actions that can be planned accordingly.
The current balance of the permanent upgrade might need tweaking but I would really want to playtest it and iterate it further - the player fantasy of slowly upgrading your hero to be more powerful, much like in deck builders such as Dream Quest/Slay the Spire is very intriguing to me and I really want to explore it further. Sometimes it is better to pursue what you describe as 'unacceptable' design, even bad one, initially, to end up with the design after playtesting that you would otherwise not have come up with.
Tweaked the class a bit, added more cards. Considering the HP revamp but I want to keep the following:
- Random swap each turn with a pool of X hero powers (3 seems like the most optimal number).
- Permanent (but slow) gain in power.
Was thinking of tweaking the HP to look something like this: ”Deal 1 damage to your hero and give it +2 Attack until your next attack (stacks).”
It has been a while hasn't it. Well, I haven't played Heartstone for years, came back just recently and heard about the Death Knight leaks, supposedly we're getting a new class next xpac.
Thought I'd spend some time redesigning my initial iterations of the cards/mechanics. Any feedback would be appreciated!
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