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Hearthstone | Posted by | 6 years, 7 months ago
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Zephrys: the great fails

Welcome to this originally mildly salty thread, turned into a productive one!

I thought it was pretty fun to mention here all the obvious whiffs of Zephrys the Great, specifing the game context as precisely as possible.

REMINDER: zephrys the great calculates solutions based exclusively on PUBLIC elements. He does not know the identity of your cards or secrets, nor those of the opponent, but he can see that they are there and their number, plus health, weapons, board.

Let's gather enough data to improve his code!

Here i start:

(10) mana as Valeera the Hollow, with Eviscerate at hand, against Wild Secret Mage, with 2 secrets up (including ice block) and 1hp left:

i play Zephrys TWICE in the same turn, and in neither case did he offer me the SI:7 Infiltrator or Flare that could give me lethal.

Only 3 redundant options: Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe. Twice.

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  • Welcome to this originally mildly salty thread, turned into a productive one!

    I thought it was pretty fun to mention here all the obvious whiffs of Zephrys the Great, specifing the game context as precisely as possible.

    REMINDER: zephrys the great calculates solutions based exclusively on PUBLIC elements. He does not know the identity of your cards or secrets, nor those of the opponent, but he can see that they are there and their number, plus health, weapons, board.

    Let's gather enough data to improve his code!

    Here i start:

    (10) mana as Valeera the Hollow, with Eviscerate at hand, against Wild Secret Mage, with 2 secrets up (including ice block) and 1hp left:

    i play Zephrys TWICE in the same turn, and in neither case did he offer me the SI:7 Infiltrator or Flare that could give me lethal.

    Only 3 redundant options: Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe. Twice.

    • Quote From RavenSunHS

      i play Zephrys TWICE in the same turn, and in neither case did he offer me the SI:7 Infiltrator or Flare that could give me lethal.

      Only 3 redundant options: Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe. Twice.

      For future reference, if you play Zephy with Brann or shaman quest hero power, he will give you the same options twice without exceptions.  He will not take the fact that he just gave you these choices into account.  If you somehow play zephy twice in a row, the options will only change if the first options became unplayable due to you spending an additional 2 mana.  Since he gave you evis, fireball and swipe on 8 mana the first time, you can assume he will give you the same options again because all these options are also playable on 6 mana

      Not calling you a n00b; this is just FYI

      • Quote From NightCrawler
        Quote From RavenSunHS

        i play Zephrys TWICE in the same turn, and in neither case did he offer me the SI:7 Infiltrator or Flare that could give me lethal.

        Only 3 redundant options: Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe. Twice.

        For future reference, if you play Zephy with Brann or shaman quest hero power, he will give you the same options twice without exceptions.  He will not take the fact that he just gave you these choices into account.  If you somehow play zephy twice in a row, the options will only change if the first options became unplayable due to you spending an additional 2 mana.  Since he gave you evis, fireball and swipe on 8 mana the first time, you can assume he will give you the same options again because all these options are also playable on 6 mana

        Not calling you a n00b; this is just FYI

        Not true, I've played him with the Quest Shaman HP and got different options. Granted, 2/3 options were the same, but regardless, it wasn't the exact same 3 choices.

  • Because he doesnt operate with information in your hand. He didnt know you had Eviscerate. He only operates with public information, thus information that can be also known to your opponent.

    Staff
    • Quote From sinti

      Because he doesnt operate with information in your hand. He didnt know you had Eviscerate. He only operates with public information, thus information that can be also known to your opponent.

      The fact the opponent had 2 secrets was public.

      Receiving no tech in 6 cards is a whiff, even if he didn't know i had lethal.

  • Similar situation - playing against mage who had 2 or 3 secrets up so Zephrys offered Flare. Figured I'd roll the dice on one of them not being Counterspell, but alas one was so wasted card. I wonder if/how he accounts for the possibilities on secrets?

  • If you has played eviscerate first then he would have seen the lethal and given you SI:7, or some other from of lethal.

    Friendly
    • Quote From MalcolmReynolds

      If you has played eviscerate first then he would have seen the lethal and given you SI:7, or some other from of lethal.

      I would have triggered the ice block. ;)

      Either way, post your whiffs!

      This thread is not about discussing my case, which WAS a whiff no matter what! He's meant to offer the perfect card, and a choice. It's pointless to offer 3 redundant damage cards and no tech. In 6 cards (played him twice).

  • Yeah you need to know how to play zephrys. He doesn't consider anything in hand. So first playing evisirate and than playing zephrys will give you lethal. Same with the coin. If you have it in hand instead of playing it for mana yet zephrys will not know you have 1 additional mana. It will offer the best card based on board state, health of heroes, and mana available. It does take into account if there are secrets but he won't know which secret it would be (the same as for every other player).

    Hope it helps reduce the salt next time :-) 

  • Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

    I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

    He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

    And i played him twice.

    This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

    Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

    • Quote From RavenSunHS

      Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

      I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

      He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

      And i played him twice.

      This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

      Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

      No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

      Staff
      • Quote From sinti
        Quote From RavenSunHS

        Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

        I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

        He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

        And i played him twice.

        This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

        Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

        No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

        I have played zephrys on several occasions and he offered me a SI:7 Infiltrator, so Zephrys can see secrets, and he can offer you secret removal.

        Friendly
        • Quote From MalcolmReynolds
          Quote From sinti
          Quote From RavenSunHS

          Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

          I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

          He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

          And i played him twice.

          This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

          Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

          No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

          I have played zephrys on several occasions and he offered me a SI:7 Infiltrator, so Zephrys can see secrets, and he can offer you secret removal.

          Well, then it is a possibility and not a guaranteed outcome, where the latter is a known fact. If we can get info like this in here, im all for it ;-)

          Staff
          • Quote From sinti
            Quote From MalcolmReynolds
            Quote From sinti
            Quote From RavenSunHS

            Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

            I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

            He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

            And i played him twice.

            This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

            Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

            No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

            I have played zephrys on several occasions and he offered me a SI:7 Infiltrator, so Zephrys can see secrets, and he can offer you secret removal.

            Well, then it is a possibility and not a guaranteed outcome, where the latter is a known fact. If we can get info like this in here, im all for it ;-)

            The secretly subtle point of this thread is to gather enough data to prompt an improvement of his code. 😎

            Indeed, i also thought about Wild mode being a counter-variable.

            Zephrys may have no knowledge of Wild, hence why he does not even think that a tech at that point is a useful option.

            Yet offering 3 redundant options is clearly a bad execution. 

            EDIT: Counterspell is Standard and would have countered ALL the options he offered me. He should definitely be improved as to the diversity of options he can offer.

      • Quote From sinti
        Quote From RavenSunHS

        Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.

        I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.

        He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?

        And i played him twice.

        This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?

        Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)

        No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.

        That is my point: his code is not perfect. 

        He does generally offer tech cards, but in this case he offered only redundant lethal options.

        That is not the optimal choice he is meant to offer.

        A whiff is a whiff. The fact the code whiffs is exactly the point of this thread.

         

  • Do you think this was due to being played in wild?

    I say that because I played two matches yesterday with singleton Hunter (standard) and the opponents had secrets in play and in both occasions, he offered me the Infiltrator... (in one of these instances I was about to kill the opponent anyway)

    That's weird anyway

  • He certainly can offer secret removal. But:

    - In this specific szenario, he realises that the opponent is at one health, hence he offers damage. He doesn’t consider ice block as an option.

    - Playing Zephrys multiple times doesn’t increase the odds significantly. The only thing that changes is the mana available.

    He is hard coded spotting lethal and in this case he found it. At least he thought so. 

    Now to my own experience. I played against a warlock with Diseased Vulture on turn 4, plus some lackeys on board. I was really hoping for a shadowword pain but didn‘t get it. The best offer he had, was a SI7 Agent though. I guess he doesn‘t consider minions with ongoing effects as high priority to remove

  • Absolutely ignores deathrattles early on. Played against a Expired Merchant turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and wished for silence, however I got Powerword:Shield, Mortal Coil and another card.

    I feel that he overvalues the max mana you have left and doesn't consider deathrattle effects for the mid to long game. (Could've been a VERY different game)

    • Quote From Nuagoo

      Absolutely ignores deathrattles early on. Played against a Expired Merchant turn 2, played Zephrys on 3 and wished for silence, however I got Powerword:Shield, Mortal Coil and another card.

      I feel that he overvalues the max mana you have left and doesn't consider deathrattle effects for the mid to long game. (Could've been a VERY different game)

      Strange offers. Zephrys usually offers you Earth Shock against 1 health deathrattle minions.

  • I think the answer to the original scenario then is found above: Zephrys is "too" hard coded to offer lethal, since Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate are all literally different flavors of the same thing. (Beyond which, the OP mentioned that this happened twice, so it's actually SIX flavors of the same thing.) If the point of the "Discover" mechanic is meant to be variety, the AI should only offer one of those options, and then provide two other cards for some other scenario that the human player might anticipate but that Zephrys doesn't know.

    If others are willing to look beyond the OP's framing to the broader question, I would be interested in what other scenarios people have seen go awry. One thing I've noticed in playing against Zephrys is what seems like a fairly limited card pool. If I'm a turn away from lethal, my opponent almost always plays Tirion Fordring the same turn as Zephrys. But one thing that the AI clearly doesn't weigh -- but that the human player should -- is that I'm playing Rogue, so have numerous ways to get Tirion out of the way or to ping off his Divine Shield. Sap? Game over. Fan of Knives, Lackeys, SI:7 Agent, whatever. So I'd say there were two separate problems that the Tirion scenario draws out:

    1) Lack of awareness of opponent's class identity. The AI doesn't need to know exactly what cards I'm holding to know whether I'm more or less likely to have answers based purely on the spells available to my class (in Standard at least).

    2) General lack of options. Like I said, Tirion is produced literally every time. But objectively, even something like Khartut Defender something else might be a better option if you're a turn away from certain death. (I mean, even  in the OP's scenario, if the other player was at 1 HP, why even offer Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate? Why not Shiv?) 

    • Quote From MisterKnott

      I think the answer to the original scenario then is found above: Zephrys is "too" hard coded to offer lethal, since Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate are all literally different flavors of the same thing. (Beyond which, the OP mentioned that this happened twice, so it's actually SIX flavors of the same thing.) If the point of the "Discover" mechanic is meant to be variety, the AI should only offer one of those options, and then provide two other cards for some other scenario that the human player might anticipate but that Zephrys doesn't know.

      If others are willing to look beyond the OP's framing to the broader question, I would be interested in what other scenarios people have seen go awry. One thing I've noticed in playing against Zephrys is what seems like a fairly limited card pool. If I'm a turn away from lethal, my opponent almost always plays Tirion Fordring the same turn as Zephrys. But one thing that the AI clearly doesn't weigh -- but that the human player should -- is that I'm playing Rogue, so have numerous ways to get Tirion out of the way or to ping off his Divine Shield. Sap? Game over. Fan of Knives, Lackeys, SI:7 Agent, whatever. So I'd say there were two separate problems that the Tirion scenario draws out:

      1) Lack of awareness of opponent's class identity. The AI doesn't need to know exactly what cards I'm holding to know whether I'm more or less likely to have answers based purely on the spells available to my class (in Standard at least).

      2) General lack of options. Like I said, Tirion is produced literally every time. But objectively, even something like Khartut Defender might be a better option if you're a turn away from certain death. (I mean, even  in the OP's scenario, if the other player was at 1 HP, why even offer Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate? Why not Shiv?)

      It can't offer you Khartut Defender because that's not a basic/classic card.

      • Touché. But Shiv over Swipe or whatever still holds. Cenarius could be a better option for what I described than Tirion. (Or Alexstrazsa. 

        These examples are just taken off the top of my head without the sets open in front of me. But for an AI that DOES have those options coded into its programming, the possibilities ought to be more diverse.

        • Quote From MisterKnott

          Touché. But Shiv over Swipe or whatever still holds. Cenarius could be a better option for what I described than Tirion. (Or Alexstrazsa. 

          These examples are just taken off the top of my head without the sets open in front of me. But for an AI that DOES have those options coded into its programming, the possibilities ought to be more diverse.

          You can not play him and Alexstraza on the same tur

          • Quote From Alfi
            Quote From MisterKnott

            Touché. But Shiv over Swipe or whatever still holds. Cenarius could be a better option for what I described than Tirion. (Or Alexstrazsa. 

            These examples are just taken off the top of my head without the sets open in front of me. But for an AI that DOES have those options coded into its programming, the possibilities ought to be more diverse.

            You can not play him and Alexstraza on the same tur

            Still doesn’t address Cenarius. Or Shiv in the prior example.But, uh, ...Healing Touch? What do you want from me!? I’m vaguely interested in why the bulk of this thread has now been devoted to sniping at me and the OP. Are we genuinely convinced as a community that Zephrys is indeed “perfect?” 

            I’d be equally open to using this as a forum for finding out where Zephrys’s AI is restricted by human error. Perhaps the turn before lethal just isn’t the time you should use him? Great! But that doesn’t seem to be the conversation others are interested in having. 

          • lunas

        • He Values things you can play the same turn, and both Cenarius and Alexstrasza will help you far less since you far less the same turn than [Hearthstone Card (Tyrion Fordring) Not Found]since you wouldn't be able to play them.

          Tyrion is just a value option, not specifically a defensive option. It's one of , if not the single best value card at 8 mana.

  • I played him in wild at 6 mana, leaving myself 4 available trying to get a Mass Dispel, Silence or Hex to deal with the Deathlord that I didn't want to pull my Shudderwock. I don't remember the options, but none of them even dealt with the Deathlord at all. 

    It seems deathrattles aren't considered in the AI. 

  • Ok. Someone explain this scenario to me!  I'm playing Highlander hunter.  I set up a lethal situation by putting a couple of minions on board, Kill Command in hand, and a hero power for some overkill.  I press End Turn button.  My opponent intuitively understands the set up and throws down Khartut Defender and does some other irrelevent action before ending his turn.  Its my turn now I get myself down to 6 mana then I play the 2 mana Zephyrs knowing full well that it should offer me a 4 mana Polymorph!  Zephyrs offers me Hex instead!  I now don't have lethal!  I won the game a few turns later but WTF Zephyrs!  Hex is almost never a better option than Polymorph.

    • Quote From NegativeNemsy

      Ok. Someone explain this scenario to me!  I'm playing Highlander hunter.  I set up a lethal situation by putting a couple of minions on board, Kill Command in hand, and a hero power for some overkill.  I press End Turn button.  My opponent intuitively understands the set up and throws down Khartut Defender and does some other irrelevent action before ending his turn.  Its my turn now I get myself down to 6 mana then I play the 2 mana Zephyrs knowing full well that it should offer me a 4 mana Polymorph!  Zephyrs offers me Hex instead!  I now don't have lethal!  I won the game a few turns later but WTF Zephyrs!  Hex is almost never a better option than Polymorph.

      This is another interesting scenario.

      Zephrys the Great was good enough to understand you needed a transform effect, yet he failed at providing the correct one.

      People may argue he doesn't know you were holding lethal in hand, but then, as you said, Hex is almost always worse than Polymorph IN GENERAL, besides the lethal, and Zephrys should know better.

    • Quote From NegativeNemsy

      Ok. Someone explain this scenario to me!  I'm playing Highlander hunter.  I set up a lethal situation by putting a couple of minions on board, Kill Command in hand, and a hero power for some overkill.  I press End Turn button.  My opponent intuitively understands the set up and throws down Khartut Defender and does some other irrelevent action before ending his turn.  Its my turn now I get myself down to 6 mana then I play the 2 mana Zephyrs knowing full well that it should offer me a 4 mana Polymorph!  Zephyrs offers me Hex instead!  I now don't have lethal!  I won the game a few turns later but WTF Zephyrs!  Hex is almost never a better option than Polymorph.

      I'm confused--how exactly did this turn you played Zephrys go?  Specifically: you mention having a Kill Command in hand the turn before; did you play this before Zephyrs so literally the only actions you need to lethal were to Polymorph the taunt and send your on-board minions to face?

      I'm thinking that he didn't see the lethal so he assumed that you were still fighting for board, in which case trading against a 0/1 is better than a 1/1, but I'm really just guessing.

  • Maybe what we are seeing is purposeful dialing back of how "perfect" Zephyrs is so that it can remain a fun and helpful card to play but doesn't feel unfair on the other side. Generally speaking even super powerful legendaries require some build around or thought into how to use them to maximize their effectiveness. Maybe they don't want Zephyrs to give options that are TOO optimal so that he doesn't become an automatic win card. 

     

    I don't know if this is the case but it seems like it could be possible. 

    • Quote From zoobernut

      Maybe what we are seeing is purposeful dialing back of how "perfect" Zephyrs is so that it can remain a fun and helpful card to play but doesn't feel unfair on the other side. Generally speaking even super powerful legendaries require some build around or thought into how to use them to maximize their effectiveness. Maybe they don't want Zephyrs to give options that are TOO optimal so that he doesn't become an automatic win card. 

       

      I don't know if this is the case but it seems like it could be possible. 

      He's limited within Basic and Classic sets. He's already not perfect, in the solutions he has available.

      But at least he should be optimal with what he has, given his public perspective: i do not expect he never fails, but he should always offer what i expect to find, in one of the 3 options. AT LEAST in the reactive scenario where he's played for immediate answer.

      He can never be unfair, because one has to cripple themselves to Singleton deck before being able to play him. And that's a huge price already that cannot afford whiffs like those we are gathering here.

      • Quote From RavenSunHS
        Quote From zoobernut

        Maybe what we are seeing is purposeful dialing back of how "perfect" Zephyrs is so that it can remain a fun and helpful card to play but doesn't feel unfair on the other side. Generally speaking even super powerful legendaries require some build around or thought into how to use them to maximize their effectiveness. Maybe they don't want Zephyrs to give options that are TOO optimal so that he doesn't become an automatic win card. 

         

        I don't know if this is the case but it seems like it could be possible. 

        He's limited within Basic and Classic sets. He's already not perfect, in the solutions he has available.

        But at least he should be optimal with what he has, given his public perspective: i do not expect he never fails, but he should always offer what i expect to find, in one of the 3 options. AT LEAST in the reactive scenario where he's played for immediate answer.

        He can never be unfair, because one has to cripple themselves to Singleton deck before being able to play him. And that's a huge price already that cannot afford whiffs like those we are gathering here.

        You make a very good point here. Given that he is limited to basic and classic sets and you have to have a singleton deck for him to work I am surprised at the lack of variety in choices in the OP. His code should analyze the situation and give three possible different answers rather than 3 essentially the same options. It is strange that he would only offer three damage cards twice in a row and not anything else. Even if he doesn't know what secrets they have it is simply redundant and unhelpful to offer cards that all do the same thing. It would even be better to offer one damage card, one taunt card, and one tech card in that situation. That would allow the player some choice and the ability to determine what they thought was the optimal play.

    • I understand that there is a build around and whatnot to get maximized effectiveness for certain legendaries, but isn't playing Highlander and having a certain amount of situational awareness enough to offset his power? I think he should reward players who know the situation and set things up in a certain way with more consistency.

  • I cannot remember the situation but I was offered Cabal Shadow Priest against a Doomsayer which was obviously not what I wanted. Thankfully I did get offered silence too. He can definitely offer some odd choices now and then.

     

    The card text says "wish for the perfect card", it doesn't mention the wish coming true :P

  • Haven't played Zephrys against secrets yet, but I have found him to be very predictable in some scenarios. I had one game with opponent at 12 health with a large taunt, and I had a 10 attack minion. I played Blessing of Kings first so my minion had lethal damage, then played Zephrys for a Sap. I also had a hilarious game where I had stuck an Annoy-o-Module on a Mechano-Egg. My opponent played Zephrys at 8 mana, got Cabal Shadow Priest and stole the egg. I played Zephrys in response, and you guessed it ... Cabal Shadow Priest. 

    I think a good way to interpret "Wish for the perfect card" is "Set up the board if possible so the card you want has maximum value." If a Fireball or a Bloodlust will give lethal and you have the mana, he WILL offer it.

  • Zephrys the Great is, for all its fanfare, really a situational algorithm; it just takes a look at the scenario and offers what it's programming determines as "perfect".  I know that is kind of obvious, but what I'd like to point out is that means it does not consider what cards will be played against you.  It will not take the size of the hand for Big Priest into consideration, even though that is public knowledge, as it doesn't know the trend of the meta and the typical strategies.  It doesn't see a Pogo-Hopper on the board and determine you need to kill it before it can be copied into a deck, as it doesn't know what the thief probably has in their hand.  You would have to take a screenshot of the board, show it to a stranger who knows all the basic and classic cards (but none of the current decks or play-styles), and ask what card do I need to get an equivalent of the algorithm.  I think it is an interesting and fun card which can be extremely useful, but it has definite limitations.

    That all being said, I agree that the options given should be fairly diverse (although, since Zephyris will not know the popular decks, the diversity offered may seem ridiculous within the current meta) and range across potential play styles.  To offer a set of 3 spells that all do direct damage, or 3 taunt minions, or to value Hex over Polymorph is bad coding...

  • This thread is definitely interesting and should help understand the (current) capabilities of Zephrys. I've only used him for very simple board clears or single target removals so far (and he's very good at those) but he's not perfect by any means. BoarControl even started a tweet thread with weird Zephrys results.

    Anyway, I'd imagine RavenSun's issue to be the fact that he probably didn't have minions on board or a weapon in hand, so Zephrys didn't think he wanted secret removal but a lethal instead. Although I don't think trying to offer a lethal in that situation is a massive mistake, the fact that he only offers lethals could definitely be improved as you might well be looking for something else. It also seems he offered only spell-lethals, why didn't he suggest charge minions as well?

     

    Staff

  • Zephrys is definitely bad against secrets when you have lethal already, so play him earlier. I had lethal on board against an Exodia Mage and he offered me Pyroblast (I could cast it due to an unanswered Emperor), Gorehowl and Soul of the Forest.

  • Isn't Zephrys supposed to give you options for your following turn as well?

    Just had this scenario:

    At 10 mana, I got my opponent down to 10 HP. I then played Zephrys looking for Pyroblast to guarantee lethal next turn. Instead, I was given no cards to set up lethal. I don't remember all the options he gave, 2 were completely useless survival, I think Tirion and Healing Touch?, and 1 was Flamestrike (None of which I had enough mana to play that turn anyway because I played him with my last 2 mana so he would give me something for next turn) to deal with his board of (3) 4/3's (it was a quest warrior).

    If I didn't have enough mana to play anymore cards, why did he offer me board clear and survival cards, if I had lethal setup for a Pyroblast?

    It appears Zephrys might put board clear/survival before lethal, which seems like a major design flaw. 

  • To sum things up a little:

    - Secrets are an issue. But i think there is no good solution either. He can‘t possibly assume the secret, hence specific answers won‘t be shown. He could give the SI7 infiltrator more often as an option, especially against mage. I‘m saying that without knowing the probability with 4 mana left. It‘s difficult to draw the line, hungry crab for instance is offered to frequently imo. In those cases, it seems stupid that he offers 3x damage and not more variety. (Probably not that easy to code)

    - He doesn’t realize the importance of specific minions. Stuff like Deathlord has theoreticly a positive effect for you and Zephrys won‘t morph it.

    - Early game boards in general confuse him. I guess the options are simply not polarizing enough. It‘s probably on the player to polarize towards an obvions answer.

    - When looking for a card to play next turn, make sure you have no mana left when you play Zephrys. (I wonder if he ever offers Mind control). Ysera is a common option here btw. Pyro if your opponent is below 10 health. I don‘t know if he considers warrior or priest heropowers, probably not

    - When planing lethal, it‘s crutial to play out all the other required cards first.

    • Quote From Bersak

      To sum things up a little:

      - Secrets are an issue. But i think there is no good solution either. He can‘t possibly assume the secret, hence specific answers won‘t be shown. He could give the SI7 infiltrator more often as an option, especially against mage. I‘m saying that without knowing the probability with 4 mana left. It‘s difficult to draw the line, hungry crab for instance is offered to frequently imo. In those cases, it seems stupid that he offers 3x damage and not more variety. (Probably not that easy to code)

      - He doesn’t realize the importance of specific minions. Stuff like Deathlord has theoreticly a positive effect for you and Zephrys won‘t morph it.

      - Early game boards in general confuse him. I guess the options are simply not polarizing enough. It‘s probably on the player to polarize towards an obvions answer.

      - When looking for a card to play next turn, make sure you have no mana left when you play Zephrys. (I wonder if he ever offers Mind control). Ysera is a common option here btw. Pyro if your opponent is below 10 health. I don‘t know if he considers warrior or priest heropowers, probably not

      - When planing lethal, it‘s crutial to play out all the other required cards first.

      This is good advice on player side.

      On devs side tho, there is more that could be said: many whiffs could be solved if more VARIETY was enforced in the code that looks for immediate answers.

      If one of the options, just one, is a tech (including silence when strong effects are on the board), even during lethal, it's up to the player to choose that tech, instead of sheer damage/removal.

      Maybe even the tech option is not enough, sure, that's life, but at least one is given their best chances.

      Zephrys the Great should NEVER offer 3 options that are largely REDUNDANT with each other, especially when used to fish for immediate solutions, including lethal.

      That would be enough to make him more consistent to expectations, without any risk of turning him into a i-win button.

       

  • if i am not wrong you dont become Flare because you dont have any minion on Board. That is the Reason why he gives you Lethal from Hand

  • [Hearthstone Card (Zephrys) Not Found] has offered me SI:7 Infiltrator several times against mages with secrets up, but never Flare.

    Played at 10 mana against a board consisting of a Voidlord, 3 Voidwalkers and Tirion Fordring, I was offered Brawl, Mind Control and Ancient of War. I really hoped for Twisting Nether as guaranteed clear for my remaining 8 mana.

  • Also i have seen some people mention that Zephrys the Great doesn't work with Auchenai Soulpriest

    So me and a friend tried it out and sure enoegh, my friend had 6 health left, played Zephrys, i had 2 mana remaining after playing Soulpriest and then Zephrys, so i expected a Holy Light but nope. just some random garbage

    Friendly

  • I wonder if the amount of secrets up affects the result.. as in:

    - 2 secrets = not enough to consider

    - exactly 1 secret = get your SI-7infilltrator

    - more than secrets 2 = flare.

  • If Zephrys should offer tech cards consistantly, they have to implement different algorithms for the 3 offered cards. 

    Something like:

    Card 1 offers damage 

    Card 2 offers value/minion

    Card 3 offers tech, boardclear

    I don’t know how it’s handled atm. He probably choses from card pools similar to those categories but since he often offres different cards with similar abilities (multiple boardclears etc), my guess would be that all 3 cards follow the same allgorithm without any hirarchy. Therefore, it’s difficult to draw the line for him between tech cards and obvious choices like boardclears or lethal spells. In OP‘s example, Zephrys (not considering the nature of the secret) finds lethal and all three offered cards are chosen for that purpose. 

    A mechanism with different fixed goals for every card has the downside that the overall consistancy would drop significantly. You would never get more than one boardclear as an option for example. This doesn’t have to be a bad thing though! The boardclear you need is very obvious most of the time. Things get more complicated with situational cards like Shadowflame or mass dispell.

    I don‘t know if i‘m making sens here.. 

     

    • I'm not sure i got your point, but if more variety is enforced in Zephrys the Great, it can only be for the good, as long as what is offered is optimal:

      If you need an aoe, and he provides the best one one for the situation, you don't really care of the other options.

      In particular, you don't care if other options are different AoE, EXCEPT possibly for the AoE tech option, ie Mass Dispel.

      Maybe he could still whiff, coding for optimality is no easy task, but certainly options that are just redundant with each other are bad: when that happens, it's like he gives you no choice at all.

      PS: i am not suggesting he should always offer 3 different types of cards. I'm suggesting he should NEVER offer 3 redundant cards (ie cards that serve the same purpose in the same way).

  • Well i personaly did not have a Zephry Fail so far - the moments i played him he got me either lethal or a useful card.

    I also played him once against a Hunter with 2 active Secrets and he got me a minion that destroyed a random secret.

    But i also guess it´s true that like someone said above you only wish for the Perfect Card and that doesn't mean you will always get the best outcome!

  • 1 our ago, wild, reno mage with DK (me) vs sky temple quest reno mage (opponent), both Medivh avatar. Deck almost out. I was Frost Lich Jaina almost at full health, with some minion on board. Opponent was almost dead but with 2 secret out, one mage, one hunter: ice block and rat trap. I attacked with everything but a Water Elemental and he was at 3 health, then I played Zephrys that gave me Flare (with Fireball and Eviserate).

    I don't know if attacking - setting up lethal with only 1 card missing - helped or not.

  • This feels like it was a step away from a Zephrys fail, so I’m curious if anyone else has experienced this scenario.

    Playing Highlander Mage. Opponent has 10 health. I have a Frostbolt in hand and Kalecgos on the board. After whittling down the board I have 7 mana left. There is a 2-health taunt minion in the way. 

    I play Frostbolt first on the taunt minion to use Kalecgos’s “free” cast. I run Kalecgos into face. With opponent now at 6 health, Zephrys correctly offers Fireball for lethal. (And weirdly Arcanite Reaper, in case I wanted to toy with him for another turn...?)

    My concern at the time was whether or not Zephrys “knew” about Kalecgos’s effect. Without Kalecgos, I wouldn’t have had enough mana (just 5) to play both Frostbolt and Fireball in the same turn. Had I played Zephrys right away, would he have seen the potential lethal, or would he have offered me The Black Knight? 

    I actually like the card MORE because I had to do the work, but I can see why it would be subject to possible misunderstandings. 

    • I dont think that he tracks effects of minions such as the one from Kalecgos. 

      But not sure.  

  • Zephrys only knows the following:

    • The amount of cards in your hand (for stuff like Mountain Giant)
    • The board state (minions, weapons, quests + secrets (but not what secret))
    • Your mana

    Of all of these, your mana is the most important. If you wanted a counter against those Secrets, you probably wanted Flare which is 2 mana. To encourage Zephrys to give you that card (he can see there are secrets active) play him on 4 mana left. Zephrys himself costs 2 mana, leaving you with 2 mana, which is the same cost as Flare. If you were worried about Counterspell, you could use your Eviscerate on something else (even yourself) first to trigger it and then play Zephrys.

    • Quote From Thez

      Zephrys only knows the following:

      • The amount of cards in your hand (for stuff like Mountain Giant)
      • The board state (minions, weapons, quests + secrets (but not what secret))
      • Your mana

      Of all of these, your mana is the most important. If you wanted a counter against those Secrets, you probably wanted Flare which is 2 mana. To encourage Zephrys to give you that card (he can see there are secrets active) play him on 4 mana left. Zephrys himself costs 2 mana, leaving you with 2 mana, which is the same cost as Flare. If you were worried about Counterspell, you could use your Eviscerate on something else (even yourself) first to trigger it and then play Zephrys.

      He gave me (4) and (2) cost options both when i was at (8) left and (6) left. ;)

      We can stay here for ages speculating at all the options i could have played: there would still be a case left where i could have been countered for that turn (ie. If i played my own Evis first, i would have missed lethal: even assuming i could find a tech from Zephrys at that point, i would have had nothing left to actually hit the face).

      The point is not what i could have done, but what he gave me (regardless of mana, clearly, since all his options were already at lower cost than mana left).

      Otherwise said: could he fix my turn? Yes. Even moreso because he CAN and DOES skip the mana counter if he knows a more valuable option that is cheaper.

      Did he give me ONE OUT OF THREE options to do so? No. So he actually whiffed. Independently of how i played him.

      Once more, i repeat the points:

      • Zephrys can never be perfect.
      • He can't always solve a bad situation, both because the Basic/Classic set is limited, and because chain-reactions could still impair the original plan.
      • Yet he could definitely be better with more diversity of options, when he is summoned for answers (instead of giving 3 redundant ones, which makes the choice irrelevant).

  • Sorry for the necro but can someone tell me what I'm missing here? 

    I was specifically looking for Brawl and while Holy Nova at least makes a bit of sense, the other two just seem weird. I guess I would have lost anyway but who knows if Alex wouldn't have sent me some heal. As it stood, my opponent used the remaining 4 attack on board plus Soulfire to finish me next turn.

    • Quote From anchorm4n
      Show Spoiler

      Sorry for the necro but can someone tell me what I'm missing here? 

      I was specifically looking for Brawl and while Holy Nova at least makes a bit of sense, the other two just seem weird. I guess I would have lost anyway but who knows if Alex wouldn't have sent me some heal. As it stood, my opponent used the remaining 4 attack on board plus Soulfire to finish me next turn.

      The problem is, that Zephrys doesn't see what class/deck your opponent is playing and he can't figure out the possibility of them having burst from hand. He's not coded to work like this. Check this post:

      Quote From MisterKnott
      Show Spoiler

      If others are willing to look beyond the OP's framing to the broader question, I would be interested in what other scenarios people have seen go awry. One thing I've noticed in playing against Zephrys is what seems like a fairly limited card pool. If I'm a turn away from lethal, my opponent almost always plays Tirion Fordring the same turn as Zephrys. But one thing that the AI clearly doesn't weigh – but that the human player should – is that I'm playing Rogue, so have numerous ways to get Tirion out of the way or to ping off his Divine Shield. Sap? Game over. Fan of Knives, Lackeys, SI:7 Agent, whatever. So I'd say there were two separate problems that the Tirion scenario draws out:

      1) Lack of awareness of opponent's class identity. The AI doesn't need to know exactly what cards I'm holding to know whether I'm more or less likely to have answers based purely on the spells available to my class (in Standard at least).

      2) General lack of options. Like I said, Tirion is produced literally every time. But objectively, even something like Khartut Defender something else might be a better option if you're a turn away from certain death. (I mean, even  in the OP's scenario, if the other player was at 1 HP, why even offer Swipe, Fireball, and Eviscerate? Why not Shiv?) 

      That and also the fact, that the enemy board consisted of weak and fragile minions. He also saw how both you and your drake were low on health, so he gave you a self healing AoE. (If the opponent had had some sticky 4-attack+ minions on the board, Zephrys would have also considered giving you Chaos Nova or Brawl. And, no, the divine shielded minions don't count in your case, because their damage alone wouldn't have been enough to kill you.) Giving you a Brawl as you desired, even if it corresponded to your mana and might have saved you in your case, would have put you in a worse board state (tempowise). The AoE could have whiffed; Zephrys wanted to give you a 100% secure answer. That's why Holy Nova makes a lot of sense.

      And since he already gave you a board clear, I assume, that Zephrys thought the other options should be different. Hence he gave you some healing and a 5-mana taunt.

  • Ah, that last paragraph explains it. Holy Nova was fine for me, I see why he offered this. I just didn't get the other two because even if my opponent would have traded into the taunt the best possible way for me, that would have been worse than the worst possible brawl outcome. But now you mention it I remember a stream or something where they explained that Zeph always (?) goes for a variety of answers, like offering taunt, aoe and heal if you use him defensively. Thank you!

    • Quote From anchorm4n

      Ah, that last paragraph explains it. Holy Nova was fine for me, I see why he offered this. I just didn't get the other two because even if my opponent would have traded into the taunt the best possible way for me, that would have been worse than the worst possible brawl outcome. But now you mention it I remember a stream or something where they explained that Zeph always (?) goes for a variety of answers, like offering taunt, aoe and heal if you use him defensively. Thank you!

      Np. Maybe Zephrys assumed, that you had a board clear (or some sort of an answer) in hand and that's why he decided to give you the taunt?

  • Nope, the taunt would have left me with 0 mana and I had no answer in hand or I would have saved Zeph up for later use (see first screenshot). I figured it was brawl or die and tried to push him in that direction but he obviously knew better. 

    • Quote From anchorm4n

      Nope, the taunt would have left me with 0 mana and I had no answer in hand or I would have saved Zeph up for later use (see first screenshot). I figured it was brawl or die and tried to push him in that direction but he obviously knew better. 

      Yeah, I know. I just tried to explain the taunt option argument. I meant to say, that Zephrys might have thought, that you already had a clear in hand and that you needed a taunt for the next turn.

      [edit] After rereading the last sentence, I came to the conclusion that it sounds a bit dumb. I tried to say, that Zephrys gives you a variety of options to deal with a certain scenario. Since he can't see the contents of your hand, he can't decide on his own how appropriate his options are and whether he should give you sth else. In some scenarios the tempo option is better, especially when combined with support from hand. That's what I tried to say. But after a further consideration, the taunt option here does sound like a whiff. In the case of the healing spell, Zephrys gave you some mana to spare with, so if you had a 2-mana removal or a taunt, Healing Touch would have granted you more HP. But, yeah, the druid card is worse than the worst Brawl outcome, so you are right that with this logic Zephrys should have given you the warrior board clear instead of the druid minion.

  • Btw, speaking of a Zephrys whiff, check Kibler's new video:

    https://youtu.be/oht-7ToAdrA?t=428

    Show Spoiler
    Later on he wondered why Zeph didn't give him Consecration.

    • I watched the video and I know why: Zephrys avoids killing deathrattle creatures. [of course he doesn't know what they're doing, but he compares them with their mana and stats. (i.e. he sees deathrattle dangerous if he has a lot of mana and less stat) The pirate's mana:2 mana, stat:1 mana, he hesitated to kill him because he was a minion. In fact, he could still try to kill him, but the pirate could not trade profitably, so he decided it could be ignored. ]

    • I watched the video and I know why: Zephrys avoids killing deathrattle creatures. [of course he doesn't know what they're doing, but he compares them with their mana and stats. (i.e. he sees deathrattle dangerous if he has a lot of mana and less stat) The pirate's mana:2 mana, stat:1 mana, he hesitated to kill him because he was a minion. In fact, he could still try to kill him, but the pirate could not trade profitably, so he decided it could be ignored. ]

    • I watched the video and I know why: Zephrys avoids killing deathrattle creatures. [of course he doesn't know what they're doing, but he compares them with their mana and stats. (i.e. he sees deathrattle dangerous if he has a lot of mana and less stat) The pirate's mana:2 mana stat:1 mana, he hesitated to kill him because he was a minion. In fact, he could still try to kill him, but the pirate could not trade profitably, so he decided it could be ignored. ]

  • About whiffs, I think Zephrys the Great is still quite clumsy about evaluating when to give you a tech against Secrets and Deathrattles.

    On (0) left he offered me no Silence against the only Expired Merchant on board (nothing else).  In 3 options. wth...

    • Quote From RavenSunHS

      About whiffs, I think Zephrys the Great is still quite clumsy about evaluating when to give you a tech against Secrets and Deathrattles.

      On (0) left he offered me no Silence against the only Expired Merchant on board (nothing else).  In 3 options. wth...

      I was in a similar situation before. I think this is due to the fact, that Zephrys doesn't read the deathrattle effects of some minions.

      • I think he doesn't read DR at all.

        Which is ok actually, but he should simply consider better the average value of a DR, and offer a proper reaction, at least when available mana is enforced, at least in one of 3 options

  • I can't count the Moments in that I've tried to get Hex and got Edwin VanCleef offered instead.

    It would be really great if the Devs put something like „Deathrattles triggering is undesirable" into his Programming. 

  • While we are on this topic, please check the following pic:

    https://i.imgur.com/VxPgc5W.png

    In your opinion what cards should I have gotten?

    Answer:

    Show Spoiler
    https://i.imgur.com/lDcroGw.png

    As you can imagine, I didn't lose the game. But Zephrys' choices made me speechless.

  • I set up 6 minions. I played him with 5 mana left. I'm at full health. What in Yogg's name do I have to do for a Bloodlust?!

  • My big "fail" was fixed.

    I had a 13/9 minion on board, the enemy was a mage with an obvious Counterspell and 25 health.

    I was without spells in hand to break the secret, so I spend 4 mana and play Zephrys the Great waiting for Windspeaker.

    But no, Zephrys the Great offers me Windfury and i lose the game.