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Hearthstone | Posted by | 6 years, 6 months ago
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Neutral anti-Reno tech

EDIT:

OR:

FYI: Casts When Drawn always draws you another card. It never denies card draw. Just look at how Bomb works.

The idea is to have a neutral, playable but sub-optimal (maybe 4/3 would be better?) anti-Reno tech, that is not a game sealer against Reno, but it can buy precious turns (similar concept to Loatheb). Indeed, the shuffled cards are 1-costed, which means they can be cleared by Skulking Geist.

 

ALTERNATE, with a drawback for you (maybe this one should be called Nasty Cantrip instead)

Also notice it cannot prevent an early Zephrys the Great, because of its cost, and it's not an optimal body, nor a value generator for you (unlike Beneath the Grounds). Just a time-buyer against an incoming Highlander card, and barely a decent card anywhere else (similarly to Acidic Swamp Ooze, or Kezan Mystic).

 

  • What do you think?
  • Is the version with enemy 1/1 taunt more balanced and/or fun to encounter? Especially in Wild?
  • Or shuffle just 2x instead of 3x?
  • Maybe 4/3 would be more in-line with a tech card? 
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  • EDIT:

    OR:

    FYI: Casts When Drawn always draws you another card. It never denies card draw. Just look at how Bomb works.

    The idea is to have a neutral, playable but sub-optimal (maybe 4/3 would be better?) anti-Reno tech, that is not a game sealer against Reno, but it can buy precious turns (similar concept to Loatheb). Indeed, the shuffled cards are 1-costed, which means they can be cleared by Skulking Geist.

     

    ALTERNATE, with a drawback for you (maybe this one should be called Nasty Cantrip instead)

    Also notice it cannot prevent an early Zephrys the Great, because of its cost, and it's not an optimal body, nor a value generator for you (unlike Beneath the Grounds). Just a time-buyer against an incoming Highlander card, and barely a decent card anywhere else (similarly to Acidic Swamp Ooze, or Kezan Mystic).

     

    • What do you think?
    • Is the version with enemy 1/1 taunt more balanced and/or fun to encounter? Especially in Wild?
    • Or shuffle just 2x instead of 3x?
    • Maybe 4/3 would be more in-line with a tech card? 

  • Non-duplicate cards are not a problem, especially in standard

  • I guess that the next expansion needs a new neutral counter against highlander decks.

    When K&C was released I used to put The Darkness in my wild decks to counter Renodecks and Spiteful Summoner.

     

    • Quote From UVE

      I guess that the next expansion needs a new neutral counter against highlander decks.

      When K&C was released I used to put The Darkness in my wild decks to counter Renodecks and Spiteful Summoner.

       

      In what kind of decks did you use it? How did it perform on ladder?

      My concern with the darkness is that it is in extreme card, not really fitting as a tech...

  • I actually like this idea. It would just be an interesting tech card you could throw in if you were facing a lot of highlanders. Not powerful, and not terrible. I think having the cantrips do something would be more interesting, whether it's the suggested 1/1 taunt, or a random 1/1, or random 1 damage, something so that the card does more than just attack highlander synergy. Nice idea!

  • I like the first idea, maybe with a 4/3 body as you suggested. I think it would be Epic if made by Blizzard though.

  • I feel that the first version wouls be very strong in general, not just anti-Reno. It potentially denies opponent's draw three times and would be frustrating to play against. I like the summoning version better (with maybe 4/3 statline), but if you really wanted just anti-reno, maybe you could add "Draw a card." to a do nothing card, plus 1 health, or +1 spell damage (since it's a mage, some flavour, also Ogre Magi stats :) )

    • Quote From Ethardoth

      I feel that the first version wouls be very strong in general, not just anti-Reno. It potentially denies opponent's draw three times and would be frustrating to play against. I like the summoning version better (with maybe 4/3 statline), but if you really wanted just anti-reno, maybe you could add "Draw a card." to a do nothing card, plus 1 health, or +1 spell damage (since it's a mage, some flavour, also Ogre Magi stats :) )

      Or maybe shuffle cards in BOTH decks?

    • Quote From Ethardoth

      I feel that the first version wouls be very strong in general, not just anti-Reno. It potentially denies opponent's draw three times and would be frustrating to play against. I like the summoning version better (with maybe 4/3 statline), but if you really wanted just anti-reno, maybe you could add "Draw a card." to a do nothing card, plus 1 health, or +1 spell damage (since it's a mage, some flavour, also Ogre Magi stats :) )

      Casts when drawn draw an additional card so it doesn't deny drawns.. Just like with Bombs.. 

      I think the card can be saftly be 3 mana 4/3.. 

      Also dedicated counters are boring it's better if it does something else as well. 

      • Oh, I'm sorry, I never noticed they changed it! It was with draw a card before, thank you for pointing out. Then it is definitely more than fair card, lower mana could work better.

  • I feel like it's kinda petty to print a card to print a pure hate card that does nothing other than kneecap a specific archetype.

    I'd much prefer a reprint of The Darkness in some form. You know...a card that has its own purpose and isn't specifically restricted to countering a single decktype (while still obviously being designed for that)

    I also don't think a card like this would even see play, mainly because most of the Highlander cards aren't even that much of an issue. You can't just play this on curve and be like "suck it, your deck's unplayable now" because if they draw into 2 scrolls over the course of the game it was a wasted effort.

    You effectively will have to predict at which point they'd want to play their respective Highlander (or Zephrys) which, in most cases will most likely be in an agressive deck that wants to prevent a Reno or Zephrys clear...and I doubt aggressive decks can afford an udnerstatted 4-drop that they actually need to draw into in time to get a benefit out of.

    HIghlander decks are just a bit too consistent at the moment to really be hampered by this...just play Bomb Warrior if you want a counter.

    Friendly

    • Well, there are already specific counters to other decks as well. I think it would be an interesting card to exist as an option. Yes, most likely it would be not worthy to run them purely for anti-reno if they are going to be fair and balanced, but the suggested design looks playable in vacuum and more interesting than a lot of cards already printed.

    • Quote From YourPrivateNightmare

      I feel like it's kinda petty to print a card to print a pure hate card that does nothing other than kneecap a specific archetype.

      I'd much prefer a reprint of The Darkness in some form. You know...a card that has its own purpose and isn't specifically restricted to countering a single decktype (while still obviously being designed for that)

      I also don't think a card like this would even see play, mainly because most of the Highlander cards aren't even that much of an issue. You can't just play this on curve and be like "suck it, your deck's unplayable now" because if they draw into 2 scrolls over the course of the game it was a wasted effort.

      You effectively will have to predict at which point they'd want to play their respective Highlander (or Zephrys) which, in most cases will most likely be in an agressive deck that wants to prevent a Reno or Zephrys clear...and I doubt aggressive decks can afford an udnerstatted 4-drop that they actually need to draw into in time to get a benefit out of.

      HIghlander decks are just a bit too consistent at the moment to really be hampered by this...just play Bomb Warrior if you want a counter.

      I'm not sure of Standard, but the average Reno deck in Wild would be vulnerable to Aggro, without Reno Jackson. Not weak, but vulnerable. They should include more healing in their decks, if such a tech existed.

      Anyway, i wouldn't mind a Neutral Beneath the Grounds on a stick. 

      My idea was a specific tech, because i was afraid that a purposeful card would be too easy to throw in a deck as a tech, while i wanted it to be a choice one has to make, to avoid making Reno decks unplayable.

      And the whole purpose of Neutral, is indeed it was meant as a tech. I didn't mean to counter Highlander, just generating a vulnerability that all decks could decide to equip.

  • I would rather have a counter against those upgraded hero powers...like that card that disables the hero powers for both players.

  • I think I prefer cards where shuffling cards into the enemy deck is actually a benefit on its own rather than a straight up anti-reno design. Think of Beneath the Grounds or The Darkness, or for that matter warrior bombs.

    Now granted, neither of those two cards are particularly good, but the concept in itself is decent: compare to Fal'dorei Strider, which is basically Beneath the Grounds on a 4/4 body.

    I'd much rather have a playable card that happens to be super spicy against Reno decks than one that is basically useless except for hosing reno. For example you could have an overstatted minion (2 mana 3/3, say) that shuffles 3 1/1 hunters into the opponent's deck that get played when drawn, comparable to the 'hunted' cycle from MtG's Ravnica set.

  • I thought it was the only purpose of running a pair of Weasel Tunneler, or for class restriction, say a pair of Excavated Evil to counter even synergy and singleton as well.

    Friendly

  • Just play dirty rat, deathlord or gnome

    • Quote From Pullanisu

      Just play dirty rat, deathlord or gnome

      No, sorry.

      It's a horribly unreliable coinflip that only few decks (namely, Control and/or other Reno decks) can afford to include in their lists.

      That is not a "Neutral Anti-Reno tech". At all.

       

       

      • Quote From RavenSunHS
        Quote From Pullanisu

        Just play dirty rat, deathlord or gnome

        No, sorry.

        It's a horribly unreliable coinflip that only few decks (namely, Control and/or other Reno decks) can afford to include in their lists.

        That is not a "Neutral Anti-Reno tech". At all.

         

         Not my fault you don't want to use 2 of the best neutral tech cards against Reno in your decks :)

         

        • Quote From Pullanisu
          Quote From RavenSunHS
          Quote From Pullanisu

          Just play dirty rat, deathlord or gnome

          No, sorry.

          It's a horribly unreliable coinflip that only few decks (namely, Control and/or other Reno decks) can afford to include in their lists.

          That is not a "Neutral Anti-Reno tech". At all.

           

           Not my fault you don't want to use 2 of the best neutral tech cards against Reno in your decks :)

           

          C'mon, enough with this BS. You are so obviously biased that it's not even funny.

          I made this as a serious thread, open to serious discussion about how such a card as those i proposed (or similar) could be balanced.

          And i repeat, the purpose is NOT to lockdown Renodecks with a card, not more than Loatheb can lockdown Spelldecks.

          If you can't stand to discuss it properly, it's sufficient that you stay away from it. ;)

  • I really don't like that guy, he is too OP as he is. I don't know if you intended it to work like this, but you are potentially denying your opponent 3 draws, which is huge. unless you are playing tons of draw cards in your deck, then not drawing your initial card is an amazing disadvantage. and you are not really losing much by playing a 4 mana 4/4

    also, as yourprivatenightmare mentioned above, it is a little silly to print a card that has no other purpose than to counter a single archetype. It would be better to print a card that can do something on its own no matter what you are playing against, but is also a counter to highlander cards.

    so all in all, I like the idea, but the card is not very good as it is.

    Friendly

  • Looking at how cards like Nerubian Unraveler and Mojomaster Zihi are balanced, this is another alternative for such a tech. Notice that setting its cost at (6) grants that both Kazakus and Zephrys the Great can never be countered if played on curve. Even Reno Jackson itself could still be coined on turn-5 before this tech card can act.

    PS: Casts When Drawn always draws you another card. It never denies card draw. Just look at how Bomb works.

     

     

    OR, more simply:

  • MalcolmReynolds pretty much beat me to it. Shuffling non-advantageous duplicates into the opponent's deck is fine, but not allowing the opponent to draw is extremely powerful, but since HS doesn't have this mechanic most HS players don't realize how powerful that mechanic is. In Yu-Gi-Oh cards that denied card draw (notably Yata-Garasu) were banned because the mechanic basically ensures that if you have a bad turn before you were denied the card draw then you're automatically ensured you're going to have another bad turn because you have no access to any extra resources that following turn, which means when denied draw you're unlikely to catch up to what was essentially an extra turn for your opponent.

    • Guys, have you ever faced a Bomb?

      I added PS on my posts.

      Casts When Draw always draws an additional card after autocasting. It is embedded in the meaning of the keyword.

      Otherwise Bomb Warrior would be ravaging the meta in both Wild and Standard...

  • Since the mage is Pedantic I don't even feel bad writing this: Shuffle :p

    But card like this could be interesting. 

    Staff

  • Can't believe how many people are saying that this would "deny opponent's draws". Even after someone pointed out above that that's not how "Cast when drawn" cards work. Do people read the thread before posting? Or tooltips for that matter?

    • ^ Most people will only look at the OP before replying, so no. Adding a clarification to it would probably put an end to most of these "b-but preventing card draw" drive-by non-responses.

    • Quote From Pezman

      Can't believe how many people are saying that this would "deny opponent's draws". Even after someone pointed out above that that's not how "Cast when drawn" cards work. Do people read the thread before posting? Or tooltips for that matter?

      As far as I know, no one above mentioned that cast when drawn automatically draws you a card. 

      before cast when drawn was a keyword(s?) I am pretty sure it specifically mentioned drawing an extra card, but then they chaged it into a keyword that automatically drew you a card. The keyword is not a very common one so please excuse my mistake. 

      @Ravensun, after looking at all of your cards, I think I like the second one the best. I like summoning Taunts better than just 1/1's because I feel like the taunts would do more to affect the board. The third card looks super neat, however I feel like maybe a 5/5 for 5, or a 6/6 for 6 would be more balanced. just because then aggro decks would have a better chance of getting out their early cards.

      Friendly

      • Yep, you're right, a 6/6 could be more fitting for such an impactful and versatile tech card.

  • Ok, I believe I have created the final one, Dr.4 (compare with Loatheb). It was so obvious I can't believe how I wouldn't think of it first.