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Hearthstone | Posted by | 6 years, 1 month ago
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Just sack Leeroy already.

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before in other forums, so sorry for creating a new thread for this.

But man. This guy is driving me crazy.

There were times when you could distinguish between decks that are likely to run Leeroy Jenkins and decks that are not.

But tuday, LITERALLY every deck I face plays him, no metter what the deck type is. It is just a universal 6 damage face finisher for 5, which is good in everything. So sick and tired of the entry sound as well after playing this game for 6ish (?) years now.

It should definitely go to HoF with this year's rotation in April.

What do you think?

 

*proceeds to put him in every deck to join the dark side*

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  • I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before in other forums, so sorry for creating a new thread for this.

    But man. This guy is driving me crazy.

    There were times when you could distinguish between decks that are likely to run Leeroy Jenkins and decks that are not.

    But tuday, LITERALLY every deck I face plays him, no metter what the deck type is. It is just a universal 6 damage face finisher for 5, which is good in everything. So sick and tired of the entry sound as well after playing this game for 6ish (?) years now.

    It should definitely go to HoF with this year's rotation in April.

    What do you think?

     

    *proceeds to put him in every deck to join the dark side*

  • I personaly disagree - not just because i like Leeroy :) 

    Sure Leeroy is played in some decks , mostly as a finisher but almost every deck? no, at least not on EU Server - haven't seen him played against me a few times but not that i would see he is prevelent in most of the decks.

    Last 10 Games i've seen him once played against me and even then it was just to clear a minion on my board :)

    Also the post sounds a little bit salty because you lost to someone who killed you with Leeroy a few times :) - no offense - i mean if blizzard would send every card to the HoF that is played a lot or most of the time i think it would not be good for the game.

    One thing i noticed that Leeroy also sees play in the new Ramp Druid - but also as some sort of buffed up finisher - other than that i think he mostly is played in Aggro/Zoo decks as a finisher but the other decks i faced did not play him.

    So , i personaly hope that he will not be HoF`D

    • I'm playing on EU as well. I would not bother creating a new thread for expressing salt, there are dedicated forums for that issue.

      But. My problem is, there were times when you could feel kinda safe-ish at low health against certain slower decks. Now I feel like this is not the case anymore. It seems like people are starting to realize that 5 mana neutral fireball is just good for many situations. And I can't blame them, since Leeroy is the only remaining playable neutral charge minion in the game.

      It is literally used in every aggro or tempo-based deck, I even lost to him playing against a Highlander Mage when I was like "oke he is out of threats now".

      Blizzard's HoF policy is exactly what you just described, namely they send cards to HoF that are literally too universal and therefore used in almost every deck (regarding neutral cards, that is). Check Azure Drake, Ragnaros the Firelord, Sylvanas Windrunner etc.

      My point is, it is kinda boring seeing him pop up in every other game, at least for me. I could say the same about Zilliax for example. While I like the card, I'm starting to feel sick of him and I'm glad he rotates out in April.

  • Leeroy Jenkins is probably impossible to remove at this point.

    Removing it absolutely guts aggro and some combo decks. I would prefer if better taunt cards are designed to counter a prevalence of Leeroys. Besides which, the card itself presents a problem since it essentially does nothing if its not winning the game. No matter how powerful the finisher, if its stuck in your hand from turn 1, and you have to go off curve, that's a liability in of itself.

    I don't really think its really that much of a problem in all honesty. Its been nerfed before, and generally it has to be tremendous problem like Crystal Core to warrant a second nerf, or game defining like Baku and Genn to get HoF. Leeroy is just good, but its not game defining.

    Friendly

    • Removing it absolutely guts aggro and some combo decks. I would prefer if better taunt cards are design to counter a prevalence of Leeroys. Besides which, the card itself presents a problem since it essentially does nothing if its not winning the game.

      I respectfully disagree. I would very much prefer if other aggro cards are designed so that aggro decks are not gutted, than hearing "Leeeerooooy Jenkiiiins" for 2 more years.

      His uses are not limited to being a finisher. Can remove taunts with 6 health max, effectively working as a silence as it clears the way for your other minions. Or can at least contribute to removing a big threat.

  • I'm actually kinda in favour of HoFing Leeroy at this point. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with the OP - Leeroy really isn't as prevalent as is implied, at least at higher ranks. 

    But, as has been stated in the past, certain cards restrict the design space because potential new cards would be blatantly abusable. Leeroy, given his stats and charge, certainly fits that description. And removing him would, I feel, allow for more interesting aggro cards to be released (maybe even burn cards, since the automatic pseudo-fireball inclusion is gone).

    That said, I'm not particularly fussed either way. Not an aggro player, and never really had an issue with Leeroy except when he's topdecked on an empty hand :P

    • But, as has been stated in the past, certain cards restrict the design space because potential new cards would be blatantly abusable. Leeroy, given his stats and charge, certainly fits that description. And removing him would, I feel, allow for more interesting aggro cards to be released (maybe even burn cards, since the automatic pseudo-fireball inclusion is gone).

      This. Just another reason to say goodbye to him during the next rotation.

    • Quote From Bystekhilcar

      I'm actually kinda in favour of HoFing Leeroy at this point. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with the OP - Leeroy really isn't as prevalent as is implied, at least at higher ranks. 

      But, as has been stated in the past, certain cards restrict the design space because potential new cards would be blatantly abusable. Leeroy, given his stats and charge, certainly fits that description. And removing him would, I feel, allow for more interesting aggro cards to be released (maybe even burn cards, since the automatic pseudo-fireball inclusion is gone).

      That said, I'm not particularly fussed either way. Not an aggro player, and never really had an issue with Leeroy except when he's topdecked on an empty hand :P

      I think any card that abuses Leeroy Jenkins at this point have already been printed in my opinion.

      Just some cards on top of my head: Faceless Manipulator, Seance, Grave Rune, Embalming Ritual, Vivid Nightmare, Carnivorous Cube, Shadowstep, Waggle Pick, any minion buff etc.

      What other card can be created that abuses Leeroy, not create similar abuses on other cards, and does not already exists currently or in previous metas?

      There were those days when handlock can unleash a 20 dmg Leeroy. I think if the plan was to get rid of him it would have already been done.

      Friendly

  • Leeroy is popular because charge is dead and most decks lack efficient reach. 6 Damage is realy not that big compared to older times. I remember when 16 Health was the point where mages got scary.

    I would argue he get’s boring and repetitive because there are so few alternatives.

  • I disagree, I think having some limited amount of burst damage in neutral/evergreen is healthy for the game. Aggro decks are a necessary component to the balancing act of aggro-control-combo, and without evergreen cards to provide a baseline, it'd just mean more expansion cards have to be printed to fill that void.

    I can see the argument for minor nerfing/tweaking, maybe moving him down to 5 damage would be a bit more fair, especially since he does limit the design space for finishers, but I think a card like Leeroy is going to be needed to have aggro be viable for a consistently healthy meta.

    • Quote From AliRadicali

      I disagree, I think having some limited amount of burst damage in neutral/evergreen is healthy for the game. Aggro decks are a necessary component to the balancing act of aggro-control-combo, and without evergreen cards to provide a baseline, it'd just mean more expansion cards have to be printed to fill that void.

      We would still have Wolfrider for an evergreen burst neutral. Wolfrider did see lots of play back in the days of Deathrattle Face Hunter, so it's not unplayable. It's just massively outclassed... by Leeroy.

      While evergreen burst is important, it shouldn't be Leeroy. He's too abusable to be in Standard forever.

      (I also wouldn't mind some buffs for awful cards like Nightblade, but I don't think that's a unique opinion).

  • I actually dropped Leeroy from many of my "face" decks because the meta has a lot of higher cost Taunts atm like Shield of Galakrond, Emerald Explorer and Winged Guardian etc. Still a strong card, but I don't think it's as problematic at this given moment.

  • He does seem to  be the Auto-Include in everything and this "draw back" isn't really that bad given that he is used primarily for the finishing move. With that mind, sacking him would really hinder A LOT of aggro strategies. 

    Friendly

  • Leeroy is a fair and very well balanced card. I see no reasons to HoF him.

  • He isn't in every deck. He's just more common in the meta right now because this is a very aggro/midrange board/tempo meta and having the finisher to close out the game is strong but there are metas where only rogue and maybe an aggro deck or two plays him.  In the previous two expansions and most of year of the raven only some rogue and hunter decks played him.  

    I think the card is healthy for the game.  There is nothing wrong with a neutral benchmark for burst damage.

  • I was actually just thinking the other day about how fair and balance Leeroy is, and how well designed of a card he is. Is he powerful? Yes. Does he need to be HoF'd? No. 

  • Is it boring being finished off by the same card since vanilla. Yes, yes it is. I wouldn't even care if they basically made a new one every year but I am so sick of Leeroy at this point that I would jump for joy if he got HOF'd and I know Gadgetzan and Mally are not problems right now but their infinate abusability has limited spell design since vanilla too, also boring now. New shit same ish effects who cares, just ditch the tired out vanilla cards already 

    • Quote From SamHobbs494

      Is it boring being finished off by the same card since vanilla. Yes, yes it is. I wouldn't even care if they basically made a new one every year but I am so sick of Leeroy at this point that I would jump for joy if he got HOF'd and I know Gadgetzan and Mally are not problems right now but their infinate abusability has limited spell design since vanilla too, also boring now. New shit same ish effects who cares, just ditch the tired out vanilla cards already 

      My man.

      It IS boring.

  • It sounds like OP needs more taunts in his deck and needs to be mindful of being below ~10 HP. Also, according to HSReplay, Leeroy is in ~44% of all decks. If you are being this paranoid about him, you need to just assume they have em and take the necessary precautions. Otherwise, your entire post just comes off as you being unprepared. Go back to the salty threads where you can blow steam off.

    • Quote From lichee

      It sounds like OP needs more taunts in his deck and needs to be mindful of being below ~10 HP. Also, according to HSReplay, Leeroy is in ~44% of all decks. If you are being this paranoid about him, you need to just assume they have em and take the necessary precautions. Otherwise, your entire post just comes off as you being unprepared. Go back to the salty threads where you can blow steam off.

      Dude. You sound like you are always prepared for him and never get crushed by him (good for you then but I doubt it). Isn't it just boring? Being like "fuck, Leeroy incoming, and there is nothing I could do to prevent it". Yes it is.

      Also, you sound like you never got 16+ to face out of nowhere, from Warriors, Rogues etc. So your below 10 argument is nowhere near the truth.

      My post is not about salt, but I'm sure you know better. I don't mind losing, those days are way behind me. It's a complaint about how boring it is to lose to the same dude for 6 years.

      • Quote From viczone
        Quote From lichee

        It sounds like OP needs more taunts in his deck and needs to be mindful of being below ~10 HP. Also, according to HSReplay, Leeroy is in ~44% of all decks. If you are being this paranoid about him, you need to just assume they have em and take the necessary precautions. Otherwise, your entire post just comes off as you being unprepared. Go back to the salty threads where you can blow steam off.

        Dude. You sound like you are always prepared for him and never get crushed by him (good for you then but I doubt it). Isn't it just boring? Being like "fuck, Leeroy incoming, and there is nothing I could do to prevent it". Yes it is.

        Also, you sound like you never got 16+ to face out of nowhere, from Warriors, Rogues etc. So your below 10 argument is nowhere near the truth.

        My post is not about salt, but I'm sure you know better. I don't mind losing, those days are way behind me. It's a complaint about how boring it is to lose to the same dude for 6 years.

        Everyone who has played the game has lost to a Leeroy finisher. It's part of the game. I did 14 games yesterday from 14 --> 10 and didnt see a single Leeroy. 

        The days of 16+ to the face are very few and far between. Maybe it's different on EU vs NA but I just dont see that combo much these days. I say ~10 because if I get slammed in the face, it's to one Leeroy and 1 other buff or dmg spell I didnt see coming. 

        Your post is definitely about salt. You dont like em....so you post the hate. It's clear. Move it to the Salt threads dedicated for this stuff.

  • He's an auto-include in minion-based Aggro-Tempo decks.

    If the meta is Aggro-Tempo oriented, Leeroy becomes popular.

    Either way, about sheer popularity, Zilliax is far more obnoxious. In Wild too. Now THAT is a card that is truly everywhere, with very few exceptions.

    • Quote From RavenSunHS

      He's an auto-include in minion-based Aggro-Tempo decks.

      If the meta is Aggro-Tempo oriented, Leeroy becomes popular.

      Either way, about sheer popularity, Zilliax is far more obnoxious. In Wild too. Now THAT is a card that is truly everywhere, with very few exceptions.

      Agreed, Leeroy comes in and out of fashion a bit. I guess by having the highest burst output in a single card in most of these decks, and often being the thing to finish you off, it is not surprising he becomes the focus of complaints. I'm not personally calling for him to be sent to the HoF, but I do wonder whether it is good design for the highest burst damage card for most classes (ignoring combos) to be neutral.

      Compare that to Zilliax, who is so commonly played yet so rarely complained about. I guess it does so much stuff that it is always useful, but it does this at the cost of stats, so it isn't crazy strong at the one or two relevant things it does in any given instance. Hence it is rare you feel cheated when it is played against you. Plus it was always destined to rotate out of standard, making people more tolerant of it.

       

  • I'd be fine seeing him HOF'd. He's not broken, but he just isn't fun to play against in my opinion.

    • Quote From CableKnight

      I'd be fine seeing him HOF'd. He's not broken, but he just isn't fun to play against in my opinion.

      That's because he's a finisher.

      It's never fun to lose.

      • Quote From RavenSunHS
        Quote From CableKnight

        I'd be fine seeing him HOF'd. He's not broken, but he just isn't fun to play against in my opinion.

        That's because he's a finisher.

        It's never fun to lose.

        Fair point, but at least most other finishers require some amount of set up other than "oh I drew this now I can do 6". Savage Roar and Unleash the Hounds require there to already be a board, Kill Command needs a Beast most of the time, you need to have 10 mana to pyroblast, etc. The exception to my argument is Fireball, but considering tempo mage is dead atm I'm not concerned about it.

      • Quote From RavenSunHS
        Quote From CableKnight

        I'd be fine seeing him HOF'd. He's not broken, but he just isn't fun to play against in my opinion.

        That's because he's a finisher.

        It's never fun to lose.

        Isn't that a valid argument to HoF Leeroy? Losing to the same card for over 5 years is just not a fun experience, even if the card isn't broken.

        Regarding Zilliax, if that was a card in Standard, I'd be very much in favor of moving him to the HoF. But he's already going to rotate with the next expansion.

         

        • Quote From MurlocAggroB

          Quote From AliRadicali

          I disagree, I think having some limited amount of burst damage in neutral/evergreen is healthy for the game. Aggro decks are a necessary component to the balancing act of aggro-control-combo, and without evergreen cards to provide a baseline, it'd just mean more expansion cards have to be printed to fill that void.

          We would still have Wolfrider for an evergreen burst neutral. Wolfrider did see lots of play back in the days of Deathrattle Face Hunter, so it's not unplayable. It's just massively outclassed... by Leeroy.

          While evergreen burst is important, it shouldn't be Leeroy. He's too abusable to be in Standard forever.

          (I also wouldn't mind some buffs for awful cards like Nightblade, but I don't think that's a unique opinion).

          Wolf Rider sees play in face decks but not really as a finisher. It's just damage from hand. But suppose Wolf rider were to take Leeroys place due to lack of alternatives, I'm sure the same people who get triggered by losing to leeroy would have a similarly negative reaction to ole' wolfy.

           

          The way I see it, "feels bad to lose against" is incredibly subjective and personal, hence not a strong reason to change things .

           

          Quote From Zelgadis
          Quote From RavenSunHS
          Quote From CableKnight

          I'd be fine seeing him HOF'd. He's not broken, but he just isn't fun to play against in my opinion.

          That's because he's a finisher.

          It's never fun to lose.

          Isn't that a valid argument to HoF Leeroy? Losing to the same card for over 5 years is just not a fun experience, even if the card isn't broken.

          Assuming some other card has to be printed to fill the void, then no, that's not a particularly strong reason to HoF Leeroy. You'll still have that not-fun experience losing to a topdecked Killroy Watkins even if it's a brand-spanking new card, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of people don't have strong negative feelings toward leeroy to begin with. Sure, it's not *fun* to lose to topdeck leeroy, but the same is true for any number of other ways to lose.

          • Quote From AliRadicali
             

            You'll still have that not-fun experience losing to a topdecked Killroy Watkins even if it's a brand-spanking new card

            I like your idea of Killroy Watkins and fully support Leeroy Jenkins to be HoF if this card takes its place.

            What does it do? Does 6 damage to face, with 2 health and spawns two 1/1 worthless imps for your opponent.

            Flavor text: "For every player that's bored of losing to a Leeroy, here's something else for a change until the next 6 years"

            Friendly
          • Quote From AliRadicali
             

            You'll still have that not-fun experience losing to a topdecked Killroy Watkins even if it's a brand-spanking new card,

            But it won't be that forever. If an alternative card is added in an expansion, it'll be gone in two years. As others have said, Zilliax is more of an issue than Leeroy has ever been. I don't have a problem with Zilliax though since he's going away in two months. He had his time, and he'll never be a problem ever again. A new best neutral Legendary will pop up at some point to replace him, and that's okay. It keeps the game feeling fresh as long as it does a similar thing in a new way.

            Unless you're implying Blizzard would print a Leeroy-type card in Classic... and to that I say, on what evidence? Brightwing and High Inquisitor Whitemane are nothing like Sylvanas Windrunner and Ragnaros the Firelord. The only replacement card that's at all similar to the original is Radiance being an inverted Mind Blast. If Leeroy were rotated, it would leave the much more balanced Wolfrider as the benchmark evergreen neutral burst.

          • Quote From AliRadicali
            Quote From Zelgadis
            Quote From RavenSunHS
            Quote From CableKnight

            I'd be fine seeing him HOF'd. He's not broken, but he just isn't fun to play against in my opinion.

            That's because he's a finisher.

            It's never fun to lose.

            Isn't that a valid argument to HoF Leeroy? Losing to the same card for over 5 years is just not a fun experience, even if the card isn't broken.

            Assuming some other card has to be printed to fill the void, then no, that's not a particularly strong reason to HoF Leeroy. You'll still have that not-fun experience losing to a topdecked Killroy Watkins even if it's a brand-spanking new card, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of people don't have strong negative feelings toward leeroy to begin with. Sure, it's not *fun* to lose to topdeck leeroy, but the same is true for any number of other ways to lose.

            Replacing Leeroy with a carbon copy wouldn't help, but they could print other good aggro cards. I do think it feels worse to lose to the same card for a very long time than to lose to different cards in each meta.

            I think there are several aspects of Leeroy that make him more annoying than the average card:

            • charge is a not very interactive mechanic; they switched to rush for a reason
            • being a strong neutral card in the Classic set, he's always present, in every meta, in every class, forever
            • as a one-of card, drawing Leeroy at the right time has a big impact on the outcome of the game: drawing him too soon is almost as bad as drawing him too late, since it's rare that he's playable when it's not lethal and aggro decks typically cannot afford to hold a lot of cards for later

            By the same logic rotating Malygos and Alexstrasza also makes sense, since those are also non-interactive strong neutral legendaries.

  • Perhaps reworked into a rush minion, could have been a good opportunity with the dragon expansion.

  • 100% agree with ya.... dude should go

  • Aaaah, Leroy. One of my first legendaries. I put him in every deck with Youthful Brewmaster as 12 dmg finisher, even before miracle rogue was a thing. 

    Quote From Bersak

    Leeroy is popular because charge is dead and most decks lack efficient reach. 6 Damage is realy not that big compared to older times. I remember when 16 Health was the point where mages got scary.

    I would argue he get’s boring and repetitive because there are so few alternatives.

    Do u remember times when 22 health was the point where druids got scary?

  • Lol, greedy control players complaining about getting smashed by aggro. Kappa.

  • I think that Leeroy as being one of the few charge minions left,  being the neutral charge with the highest damage output, puts it has a high contender in any aggro deck as a finisher if the class lacks better alternatives. But what I find curious is that ppl are not using magnetic instead if they want charge.

    Just stick some mechs and magnetize a wargear or a taunt to protect other minions...I have been experimenting with some hero power buff cards and a lot of mechs to build up the pressure until janal'ai himself sends in Ragnaros for the kill. Fun deck for sure. Aggro also needs to stick minions, why not mechs? Then charge comes for free so to speak. I mean with mechs you can have a 2-6 taunt at turn 2 ready for more magnetizing.

    • Quote From Zwane

      I think that Leeroy as being one of the few charge minions left,  being the neutral charge with the highest damage output, puts it has a high contender in any aggro deck as a finisher if the class lacks better alternatives. But what I find curious is that ppl are not using magnetic instead if they want charge.

      Just stick some mechs and magnetize a wargear or a taunt to protect other minions...I have been experimenting with some hero power buff cards and a lot of mechs to build up the pressure until janal'ai himself sends in Ragnaros for the kill. Fun deck for sure. Aggro also needs to stick minions, why not mechs? Then charge comes for free so to speak. I mean with mechs you can have a 2-6 taunt at turn 2 ready for more magnetizing.

      Because aggro players aren't smart enough to do something that clever lol. Me go face, me have Leeroy, me win yaaay.

  • So long as Hearthstone sticks to an evergreen set (instead of a rotating core set) minions like Malygos, Leeroy, and Alexstraza probably must remain a part of that evergreen set.

    An evergreen set needs certain things - and it often needs them to be neutral cards. You need your neutral combo finisher. You need your neutral aggro finisher. You need your neutral control finisher. You need neutral weapon removal. You need neutral card draw. Etc.

    I am just as bored of it as everyone else. But if you remove part of the equation, the other stuff becomes more unbalanced and fucks with design.

    For example, without neutral aggro cards, only particular classes can be aggressive at any given point, which means an overall reduction in the potential for aggressive decks in the metagame. Correspondingly, all decks will have neutral control and combo tools, leading to a much more unbalanced situation.

    BTW - reckless rocketeer still exists and it is nearly the exact same card. People will still lose their mind, not because it's unfair, but because people don't like losing.

  • Not played in ALL decks, but it is the second highest played card in the game at 44.3% of decks (according HSReplay at time of this post).  Most played card right now is Zilliax in a staggering 60.3% of decks.  Again, these stats are from people using Hearthstone Deck Tracker.

    I was thinking I've never seen him in builds like Embiggen Druid, but apparently that's just me.  When selecting Leeroy in HSReplay and looking at the deck lists he's being used in, it is a very wide variety of builds.  So while he may not be in all decks, there do some to be variations of almost every archetype using him.

    While I'm not in favor of HoF for Leeroy simply because Charge is a dying mechanic in the game and it can have it's uses, he does seem to be a finishing solution for almost every class/deck IF they choose to include him.  If he were to be replaced I would honestly hope they HoF him in favor of adding a new Charge legendary.  Maybe slightly higher cost 6/4 or something. But Charge aside, his effect is also a slight counter to Resurrect Priests as he gives them 2 1/1 whelps.  Not saying that's why he's being played so much (it's not) but it's one bonus to having him.

    My biggest issue with Leeroy, personally... I decided a few years back to finally craft him, then a day later opened him in a pack, then next expansion they added the "no dupe legendary" rule... that bastard!

    OFF TOPIC: Is it just me or is Rush a bit overused right now?  I hope we'll see a little less of it going forward.

  • I'd rather see Discover removed from all lackeys.

    That will hurt aggro far more right now.

  • Losing to Leeroy isn't fun i agree, but i feel like the reason Leeroy is so good is because there isn't much competition, as most other charge minions aren't well statted or too expansive on their own. (For example Hunter's never use King Krush unless it's from Dinotamer Brann) and Warriors GENERALLY use Grommash Hellscream instead of Leeroy as it's a bigger burst of damage.

    Speaking of Grommash Hellscream if leeroy were to rotate out, i bet this card will be "The new Leeroy" (Even though it's a warrior card) people will complain about and this cycle will probably last until every charge minion gets rotated. After which they will complain about combo-esk cards like Malygos.

    And even if they rotate it, what will be Leeroys replacement? Probably another trash card no one will use, and will most likely make the classic set even worse than it already is. Or a "Very original card" that is (Name): 6 attack. 2 health. Rush. Deathrattle: "Summon 2 1/1 (name of some tokens) for your opponent." (Jokes aside i think it would be some rush card as rush is pretty much the replacement of charge, and the HS team has shown that they really like the rush mechanic.)

    Friendly

  • Said it bros ^_^ Fuck yeah.