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Hearthstone | Posted by | 6 years, 1 month ago
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Does anyone else feel like rush has ruined the game?

I started playing this game in late November 2017. Before that, I played Shadowverse, which also featured the rush mechanic - same name and functionality - which was infamous for some decks having a 'remove everything' policy. One reason I found Hearthstone interesting and eventually stopped playing Shadowverse is that this game isn't based around having unpreventable damage from hand, whether that means damage to creatures or damage to face. Being able to actually establish a board, yet not automatically because you've done that, made the game much more appealing to me. It felt more like MTG.

Since being introduced as a keyword in Witchwood, there are currently 64 cards which either have rush, can gain rush or interact with rush some way. Not all of these are viable, I know, but a quick read through the list suggests about 30 are viable or have been viable at some point. Simply put, the mechanic feels too widely distributed and makes the game into a fight of whoever can make their rush creature stick after playing and swinging with it. I have no issue with any deck archetype - except for the extremely non-interactive Quest Priest, which ironically lacks rush creatures - but I'm playing games now with a Highlander Hunter deck which is just turn after turn of slamming rush minions into each other. I suspect that the old coin Chillwind Yeti play wouldn't be viable now because it would just get removed instantly instead of trading.

I've probably written this post poorly but I hope it gets my point across.

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  • I started playing this game in late November 2017. Before that, I played Shadowverse, which also featured the rush mechanic - same name and functionality - which was infamous for some decks having a 'remove everything' policy. One reason I found Hearthstone interesting and eventually stopped playing Shadowverse is that this game isn't based around having unpreventable damage from hand, whether that means damage to creatures or damage to face. Being able to actually establish a board, yet not automatically because you've done that, made the game much more appealing to me. It felt more like MTG.

    Since being introduced as a keyword in Witchwood, there are currently 64 cards which either have rush, can gain rush or interact with rush some way. Not all of these are viable, I know, but a quick read through the list suggests about 30 are viable or have been viable at some point. Simply put, the mechanic feels too widely distributed and makes the game into a fight of whoever can make their rush creature stick after playing and swinging with it. I have no issue with any deck archetype - except for the extremely non-interactive Quest Priest, which ironically lacks rush creatures - but I'm playing games now with a Highlander Hunter deck which is just turn after turn of slamming rush minions into each other. I suspect that the old coin Chillwind Yeti play wouldn't be viable now because it would just get removed instantly instead of trading.

    I've probably written this post poorly but I hope it gets my point across.

  • You make fair points. I wouldn't say it's ruined the game, but perhaps we could do with some cards or mechanics that could better counter rush to prevent it from taking over too much. 

  • I don't think it has ruined the game, but I would appreciate it if rush were scarcer. It is already hard enough to keep a minion alive for more than a single turn as it is. Rush makes the game feel a bit too fast. 

    And though this may contradict my previous statement, I wouldn't mind seeing a charge minion here or there. Maybe just one or two new chargers would be nice, they don't have to be big or powerful, but sometimes I want to play a charge minion and I am stuck with just Bluegill Warrior and Leeroy Jenkins.

    Friendly

    • Agreed!  Rush is not a bad mechanic, but a bit over used at the moment.

  • Can't say I agree that rush have ruined the game. Its basically performing like another spell/weapon in the game. Hearthstone is all about tempo (sticking minions on board) and pressuring face. Unfortunately, that means whomsoever sticks his minions first gets the tempo lead, and in the absence of weapons and spells, this is a truism that is blocked only by taunt minions and better stated minions. That was primarily why Chillwind Yeti back in the day was a card people actually played.

     I will agree that the main problem is that rush is being too widespread, but more specifically the ability to rush minions that don't have rush innately. At the same time however, there's only so much you can do with the present mechanics that removing 'rush' as a keyword simply reduces interactivity. I still remember that dropping Mountain Giant or Flamewreathed Faceless on 4 used to be a jaw dropping, winning play. Remove rush minions, and that's one way less in dealing with these kind of plays.

    Removing the option to give other minions rush is perhaps for the better in my opinion, not that the mechanic itself that's to blame.

     

     

    Friendly

  • Its typical Blizzard design.

    They create a cool mechanic that people enjoy and they just flood the game with it. Discover was really cool until seemingly every other card being released had the mechanic stuck on it. It definitely is different than Discover though since Discover just allowed for lazy design and stupid amounts of RNG whereas Rush at least feels like they have to think twice before putting it on a card.

    Thankfully with Discover, Blizzard was able to tone it down by removing the class card bonus which hurt the effect across the entire pool of cards. Not really possible with Rush so they just need to slow down on how many cards get printed with it.

    Thankfully, we'll be losing 41 cards with the keyword when set rotation happens in April. Almost a quarter of them (10) are Legendary.
    https://outof.cards/hearthstone/cards/?collectible=true&card_set=31&card_set=32&card_set=34&has_mechanics=14&display=listing

    The Year of the Dragon sets contain a total of 33 Rush cards with 6 of those being Legendary.
    https://outof.cards/hearthstone/cards/?collectible=true&card_set=49&card_set=35&card_set=45&card_set=47&has_mechanics=14&display=listing

    I think as long as they keep it to no more than 7-8 cards with Rush in each of the sets this year, things would feel better and maybe even force the game to slow down a tiny bit.

    Also, I agree with KANSAS; They should really add another Charge minion into play. Yeah, Charge is kinda busted but if that really is their stance on it, rotate the rest of it to Wild and get it the hell out of Standard. Leeroy my son, you've grown too old and must go out on your own now.

    I for one cannot wait for their announcements on what is happening with Standard this year. I'm really hoping we get some big changes to pull Hearthstone up and remove some of these dark clouds from the sky, paving way for a brighter future.

  • Wasn't the entire idea of the rush mechanic to replace charge? Reynad's description of the mechanic is spot on in my opinion: "Rush is charge but balanced".

    We basically haven't seen a single charge minion since the rush mechanic was introduced (correct me if I'm wrong). 

    Yes, some of these cards are strong, a little too strong perhaps. But I'd much prefer burst from hand on my board, rather than my face.

  • Not ruined the game yet, but it's definitely wrong when a minion-heavy deck can consistently play reactively AND contest the board.

    A reactive deck, aka a Control deck, trades board power in order to gain removals.

    Now with strong Rush minions, you don't need that anymore: just look at Embiggen Druid, and Galakrond Warrior before that, and Galakrond Shaman before that: all of them are/were abusing stupidly strong Rush minions to gain continuous board swings.

    Actually, it is sometimes better to give in initiative, in order to Rush their minions!

    Good old Tempo trades is nearly obsolete: just rush from hand...

  • On the other hand, rush solved the 1-drop into 2-drop into 3-drop = free wins Problem from aggro decks. 
    It made contesting the board easier and hence reduces snowball games. 


    The main problem with Rush are those OP big minions that survive the hit and remain a hughe threat on the board. #Oasis surger when buffed 

  • At this point in the year, just before the rotation, the power level is at max. This shows in all kind of ways; one of them is being able to make decks almost full of rush minions which will make it hard to get some board; luckily enough this is compensated by some insane mana cheating possibilities that are now also possible (in mage we can have a 5-3 or better maybe on turn one for instance).

    Patience my friend; after rotation things will be different. For now, just decide on which train you want to be: the rush train, the mana cheat train, the token train or the control train. I am trying to be on the control/OTK train just to try something different; happily pinging opponent face for >10 damage is fun. Especially against hunters :)

    And all rush minions are weaker stat-wise than non-rush; most of the time they die when removing your minions so in effect its a removal.

    When you know you are up against a rush-machine you can try to 1. protect your minions with a taunt; 2. Increase stats of your board; 3. Have a counter/refill ready; 4. Make sure all your minions have nasty deathrattles (I like that counter a lot).

    So in short, I do not think rush has ruined the game; I think rush is a lot better than charge (imagine all those rush dudes had charge!) rush also teams up with reborn (meaning they more or less negate eachother and only speedup trades). I do think the minions that have rush and reborn/deathrattle are a bit OP (the warrior one comes to mind) because they give you two removals for the price of one.

  • Blizzard are overcompensating for all the years the couldn't print it because they only had Charge, which was too op.

     

    On one hand Rush is good because it allows for more interesting synergies. Decks no longer rely on having strong removal spells as long as they have decent rush minions.

    On the other hand, Rush feels kind of mandatory now. Pretty much any card that plays for tempo needs to have Rush or a battlecry. This is the reason why something like Animated Avalanche performs poorly despite being a huge bundle of stats.

    I personally feel like Rush should be more class specific....an alternative way of removal for classes who don't get good spells (such as Hunter and to an extent Warrior)

     

    Friendly

  • Well rush sounds the ideal thing: you want to remove your opponent's minions and establish your own to get in control and win the game.

    The problem is a bit that if both players decks are only rush minions each turn becomes quite boring, just rush/remove/attack/ rinse repeat and the one with the most rush minions drawn wins. If we look at a lot of galakrond games we see this happening, the rush 4 minions,  then the taunt 5 ones, some class specific ones (invoke mechanic of Shaman is rush tokens). To counter the taunt at 5 often the 6 mana dragon rush divine shield is used and so on. It all becomes a bit predictable. One reason why priest is irritating is because the health of his minions is often too high to remove using your standard rush stuff. You need real removal there instead of rush. But then you are weaker minion-wise since you sacrificed one possible rush minion slot for a removal card. That is also the reason why Embiggen druid is so strong now: bigger stats are more difficult to remove with rush or otherwise, especially having taunt, reborn and evasive.

  • I would argue that the issue isn't with Rush, nor even with Rush being too common - as a keyword it helps promote a board-centric trade-heavy style which tends to be interesting (to me, at least).

    The problem is that all keywords should be appropriately costed, and Rush simply isn't. Far too many of the Rush minions which have been released have had good stats, inappropriately-costed downsides, or archetype-specific benefits. In most cases, the reason behind undercosting seems to me to be due to class premium and/or archetype premium - Oasis Surger being the obvious one, but even cards like Militia Commander being good examples. Trouble is, when you give too much weight to class premium and then give every class those cards, you wind up with an inflated set. 

    So yeah, I'd argue the issue goes all the way back to the overarching design decisions underpinning every expansion since Witchwood. No single major mistake, but lots and lots of tiny ones adding up over time.

    Quick explanation of keyword costing for those unfamiliar with the concept:

    Show Spoiler
    Almost by default, a card with a keyword should either have worse stats than a card without that keyword, should cost more, or should have some additional downside. The alternative is that you're getting that keyword for 'free', which leads to that card being overly powerful relative to other similar cards. The question of how much weaker/more expensive/etc is the 'cost' of that keyword for that card, and applying a rough-and-ready average across other cards with that keyword gives the keyword cost in general.

  • The mana cost of rush is about 1 on average, Militia Commander being the only exception this card is obviously OP.

    Good example is the Amani War Bear which has rush and taunt for a 5-7 beast body. It costs 7 mana; should yield 15 stats but its 12; add 1 for taunt, add 1 for rush and add 1 for beast tag.

     

    • Quote From Zwane

      The mana cost of rush is about 1 on average, Militia Commander being the only exception this card is obviously OP.

      Good example is the Amani War Bear which has rush and taunt for a 5-7 beast body. It costs 7 mana; should yield 15 stats but its 12; add 1 for taunt, add 1 for rush and add 1 for beast tag.

       

      That example doesn't even come close to a mana cost of 1 for Rush O.o.

      5/7 statline equates to somewhere in the region of 6 mana vanilla - you're paying 1 extra mana for rush, taunt and beast. Given taunt tends towards a mana cost somewhere between 0.5-1.0 on a neutral minion (plus a beast tag, but that's usually worth very little), you're paying very little for the Rush tag itself on Amani War Bear.

  • No, i don't think rush ruined the game, but i will agree that like others before me said that rush minions are to widespread across all classes etc.

    I mean there are a few very good rush minions (Restless Mummy) for example - some are decent but others are not that prevelant or at least good enough to be played. 

    I think it´s a good mechanic and i hope that it the Rush Mechanic will stay - but i guess some Rush Minions could be changed/nerfed.

  • It’s definitely a very necessary mechanic, and encourages a tempo range that is more exciting than what we had in previous years, but does need to be used less frequently. The value Rush adds to a minion is insane. It provides classes with no spell removal a chance to take out big minions with trades and a bit of strategy. But when every deck has access to Rush minions of all shape and size then it starts to undermine the other mechanics/ strategies of the game, such as healing minions to keep them on the board longer

  • Standard is slowly turning into arena because of rush i feel. With the cards turning away from comboing or board clears, and into constantly clearing the opponent's boards with cheap minions, or lackeys that constantly generate more cards. It's pretty obvious to see. In arena if you play a big minion and your opponent can't remove it you win, that's what arena has been since it's inception. And now that's all standard is, except the "One big minion" is easier and easier to come by. Is the "OBM" the fifth or sixth version of a Scion of Ruin? Is the "OBM" a big edwin that comes after the opponent has played 7 lackeys all generated off each other from the same card? Is the "OBM" a double embiggened reborn can't be targetted taunt? Is the "OBM" a Grave Runed Convincing Infiltrator that was randomly generated from priest cards that were also randomly generated? It's just so stale now.

     

    And even worse than it being stale. It just flat out doesn't make you want to play it anymore. Net decking is so common now, that if you face a druid you know exactly what they're playing, if you face a shaman or a rogue it's netdecked lackey shit, if you face a paladin it's mech paladin. if you face a priest it's grave rune convincing infiltrator cancer, if you face a warrior one time on ladder you'll hear 50 different threads online about how blizzard hasn't deleted the class yet because their hero power is armor up. You don't want to play it any more. 

     

    It's a clever thing that they added battlegrounds to the hearthstone app, because that keeps their dwindling player numbers up because of it, but sooner or later it'll get too big to be on the same app, so they'll have to bite that bullet.

  • To my belief right now, I feel they are a big part of contribution to the powercreep, as they might be important enough to stay on the same level with other  high value cards (like hero cards and others).

    A 2 mana 3/4 with even a Rush is acceptable nowadays, and I haven't seen anybody (and myself) whine about it. Some cards also basically holding a package of many cards in it, like hero cards, a card attached with discovery mechanic, and more. Currently with the new cards we have, they now got a lot of value as almost twice as the vanilla and old cards. Not all of rush minions are that, but very close. 

    So now I don't really know what Blizzard are going to do when rush mechanic becomes part of the game now, as the powercreeps demands more strong overall cards, with having high stat points or a value generators, that's my concern.

    I do heard they want to avoid high powercreeps (stated when they done some recent nerfs this year, if I remember correctly), but I doubt they're going to avoid that.

    • Quote From Mercynary9

      To my belief right now, I feel they are a big part of contribution to the powercreep, as they might be important enough to stay on the same level with other  high value cards (like hero cards and others).

      A 2 mana 3/4 with even a Rush is acceptable nowadays, and I haven't seen anybody (and myself) whine about it. Some cards also basically holding a package of many cards in it, like hero cards, a card attached with discovery mechanic, and more. Currently with the new cards we have, they now got a lot of value as almost twice as the vanilla and old cards. Not all of rush minions are that, but very close. 

      So now I don't really know what Blizzard are going to do when rush mechanic becomes part of the game now, as the powercreeps demands more strong overall cards, with having high stat points or a value generators, that's my concern.

      I do heard they want to avoid high powercreeps (stated when they done some recent nerfs this year, if I remember correctly), but I doubt they're going to avoid that.

      The only 2 mana 3/4 rush I can think of is Underbelly Fence, which has a condition that is rarely met on turn 2 and requires a low tempo card to have been played before it. If it was an unconditional 3/4 with rush people would not be OK with it.

      I'm not saying rush minions haven't brought with them some level of power creep (all types of cards have when Blizz is trying to push an archetype), but it is not so great as your comment implies.

  • I actually like Rush a lot.  though i do understand why some people don't.  

    It helps offset the the advantage of attackers initiative.  In board based matchups it allows you to fight back on the board instead of just being value traded into.  This mitigates the value of just going first.

    It helps make up for the lack of blocking in hearthstone.  It allows you to force certain trades to happen and impact the board immediately without just being a spell.  it makes you think about trades differently.  

    It also helps midrange decks be more reactive instead of just slamming stats, and it helps control decks be more about fighting for the board.  I'd rather control decks be playing minions on the board than just playing a removal spell every turn.

    I  really like rush as an evergreen mechanic.  

     

  • It's still on my agenda to create a deck where all minions have rush...or other battlecry that damages other minions.

  • I agree that in the present meta, rush (and other removal tools) are a bit too dominant. Now it's generally true that the tail-end of the year favours control and combo(because the more cards there are in standard, the easier it is to craft a fine-tuned control deck that can deal with various threats) and it's also true that despite this, we're in a pretty aggro/face-heavy meta, but the successful aggro decks, mainly facehunter and rogue, more or less ignore the board by mid-game and have a ton of burst from hand. It feels like decks that try to win early via the board are just dead in the water ATM, which is definitely a problem, because it's that much less fun to lose against a face deck that can't be controlled via the board.

     

    One can only hope that the standard rotation will deal with some of the problem cards and that subsequent expansions will be a bit less Rush-heavy. I also wouldn't mind a further nerf to Faceless Corruptor, because that card is still busted AF and completely negates any sort of early tempo advantage an aggro deck might want to build. I wouldn't mind seeing the health of that minion go down to 3 or 2 so that it doesn't value-trade as conveniently. 5 mana: deal 4 damage to 2 minions is still decent tempo even if the card doesn't leave behind two bodies. Right now even if you keep the board clear 6 mana: play a lackey and a faceless is still far too backbreaking for (board-centric) aggro to deal with.

  • Rush essentially gave every class removal, and gave classes that had real removal (via spells or battelcries) even more. Too much removal means not a lot of board presence and minion battling, which is what HS used to be about. It seems HS tried to counter this by ramping up token mechanics to flood the board, so now games are just crazy swingy and overly match-up dependent. I do miss the days when it was acceptable---even worth---including vanillas in the deck.

  • Quest Hunter is toxic now because you can play a rush minion EVERY turn. It's not even hard to activate the quest. I find it really demoralizing to face this deck in particular.

    The entire rush mechanic is simply overdone.  

    80% of my ladder experience is Hunters (rush rush rush) or Rogues (lackey lackey lackey.)  I'm really tired of it.

  • It's funny to see people in this thread complain that Rush has removed minion trading from the game.

    I'll just double down on things Flux and others have said - the problem with Rush (if there's a problem at all, and I don't necessarily think there is one) is the number of cards with Rush. The mechanic is fine.

    But this is what happens at this stage in rotations. We have the maximum amount of cards in the card pool. Indeed, due to Galakrond's Awakening, this is the largest cardpool we've had since rotations began.

    The problem (if there is one) will correct itself.

  • A perfect answer to rush is deathrattle/reborn. Or rush them back (but bigger).

    • Quote From Zwane

      A perfect answer to rush is deathrattle/reborn. Or rush them back (but bigger).

      That's what I said in the OP about gameplay being just turns of bashing creatures together until someone doesn't have an answer. The 'pre-hit' thing you would see people doing prior to rush existing, where you would damage an enemy minion to set up to kill it next turn, feels like a waste now if I can just play a highly statted rush minion and kill it instead and hit the opposing player with my minion on board - if it managed to survive.

      Quote From RandomGuy

      It's funny to see people in this thread complain that Rush has removed minion trading from the game.

      I'll just double down on things Flux and others have said - the problem with Rush (if there's a problem at all, and I don't necessarily think there is one) is the number of cards with Rush. The mechanic is fine.

      But this is what happens at this stage in rotations. We have the maximum amount of cards in the card pool. Indeed, due to Galakrond's Awakening, this is the largest cardpool we've had since rotations began.

      The problem (if there is one) will correct itself.

      What if they print a large amount of rush minions in the upcoming expansion? Unseal the Vault is going to be around for another while and they're going to need to support that. Oasis Surger and Faceless Corruptor, some of the stronger rush cards, will also be around for just as long.

  • I think Oasis Surger is not a problem since it is not neutral. But the abundance of strong neutral minions (some even have evasive and divine shield) with rush can lead to games where the board is empty most of the time (say from turn 2-6) at the start of the turn. Then the big minions start to come in which can not be removed by rush and then the real game starts. I think this is also the reason we see a lot of token decks now, since your normal statted on-curve minion will just be removed by a rush minion. So you try to go wide, and then the Faceless Corruptor comes in handy.

  • I like rush as a mechanic, but they went a bit overboard with it. It's good to have catch-up mechanisms, so a game isn't over if your opponent has a quicker start. But if every turn is a swing turn, it feels like you're not building towards anything.

    I wouldn't call the game ruined though: the meta is usually worst just before rotation and compared to previous years I think the current state is actually pretty good.

  • People wanted an overly board centric min-maxing minion trading Hearthstone (or they thought they wanted it) so here we are. Next time control players should be careful what they wish for.

  • Bot revived this dead thread and it's amazing how my opinion on the topic hasn't changed in 10 months.