Maybe with another draw card mechanic as Raiding Party besides Cavern Shinyfinder could be viable but I don't want to imagine an hypothetical scenario when you need to use Reno and you're unable to do that because both weapons (and Shinyfinder, of course) remains at the bottom of your deck :(
With arugal you can also save up Arugal + 2x Arcane Intellect+Cultist+Banker. So when your deck is empty you play Cultist+Elekk+Banker+Banker=8 mana and 4 Cultists in deck, and then next turn you play Arugual + Arcane Intellect + Arcane Intellect which will then yield 1 (normal draw) + 4 (Arcane intellect #1) + 2 (Arcane Intellect #2) = 7 cultists in hand + 1 extra fatigue dmg tick. And then next turn you can OTK. But this needs an empty deck first and is therefore harder to pull off. If you do this when your deck has still one card left it will also work without a fatigue tick I think. Will try this out. Then the OTK can work without the need of galaxy being drawn before other cards, and you can use it in a deck that only draws as fast as possible.
Nerfs seem to be happening faster after the expansion drop. They assess win rates and feedback and move quicker than before. The idea they moved faster on aggro Priest could just reflect this
Legacy format:a subset of wild with an added set "ancient memories", with some card rotated here that won't be playable in wild. Those card are old card nerfed and then never used again reverted to an original status, like warsong commander. Some cards can exist both in this status and in their actual status, like Raza the Chained, but in this case you can only play the older one.
Friendly format: another subset of wild, but with some card banned, based on both winrate, presence and feels. Neutral cards can be restricted from some class, for example no Baku in paladin or rogue but yes Baku in druid. This is the place where to play meme deck vs meme deck.
Both this formats shouldn't have a ladder, only casual and friendly match.
yea the high quantity of mages definitely put their winrate closer to 50%. they said the winrate of mages against other classes during the cast and it wasn't much higher than 50% but I can't find that number right now. Every deck can have bad hands that just lose. Combo priest wasn't that polarized actually, maybe with its draw but not its matchup spread.
I'm not even super adamant that priest was the best deck or anything, just going by winrates at legend and other things mentioned. The meta hadn't had time to turn against priest yet, and that may have happened, but at the time of the nerfs it had a really strong matchup spread and winrate and even if it isn't "the deck" it was still very close. I think the nerf made sense.
Correct me if I am wrong, but in order for the OTK to work you need to get at least one faceless to 1 mana and one banker/elekk to 1 mana using the galaxy spell.
If these conditions hold, you can in one turn play 1 Cultitst+2 Elekks + 2 Bankers = 10 mana to get 6 cultists in your deck.
Then you save up until you have all seven cultists in hand and that single 1-mana faceless (and hope your board is empty by then :).
Suppose you are trying for some OTK, you can add Jepetto, Malygos, Antonidas etc. and need only 6 extra slots reserved for your Cultist package. And add Arugal for extra chances on extra cultists "for free". Interesting!!!
Is there really enough for the mech package to work?
I've found it to be consistent enough. You can also get Clockwork Giant by CCing a Mountain Giant sometimes as another way to trigger Blastmage.
After having taken out Missile Launcher, Goblin Blastmage is the only Mech synergy card in the deck. The Piloted mechs are in here more for CC and N'Zoth Synergy and Snowchugger is just a good 2 drop for Even Mage.
a good start more like god start!!! this deck is trash and so are you!!! and we just have your word that this crock of poop worked even once. if I were you, which I am, I would give up deck building!!!
You didn't answer my question. Aggro (be it paladin or any other deck, I couldn't tell from your wording) is not a counter to warrior. What are you even on about...
Luna's Pocket Galaxy is now the Barnes of standard. Mages having it on curve skyrockets their winrate to absurd amounts. This is not a healthy thing. Then again, seeing how you enjoyed the death knight meta shows you don't really know what makes a meta good or healthy to begin with.
You don't honestly expect that out of the 135 cards released per expansion, the majority of them will see competitive play, right? That is impossible to achieve and if you think otherwise you're most likely very naive or uninformed.
Edit: You also seem to be missing another crucial part. If a certain card/deck gets nerfed, it often gives way for new cards and deck archetypes to see play. As those decks were most likely being hard countered by the deck that got nerfed.
Quest Paladin is a great counter to warrior, it was already before the nerfs! Highrolling Murloc Palli is also a counter to almost everything, then again, this is and always be "drawstone", since it is a card game.
Luna's was exactly like Keleseth, if you got it, you win the game, it's a highroll. And Barnes is not the Priest problem in wild, is the insane amount of resurrect they have, never having great viable decks in standard, but accumulating resurrect mechanics in wild for years.
Yes, I loved the DK cards, and as it seems, they are proved great ones, hence the complaints about warrior. Every class should have a DK or Jaraxxus in standard. Fun cards, with swing effects.
Yes I do expect a card printed to be playable, is that too much to ask? If not, don't print them, release less but with quality. Not understanding your point here. You go to a restaurant, it is expectable that everything in the menu is possible to eat? Or will restaurants now provide rocks or plastic toys in the menu for you NOT TO EAT, but just being there, in the menu, because somehow it looks cool...?!
I agree that new cards and decks see play after nerfs, it's a change, there's an adaptation, obviously. But was it that swingy? Less control warrior but I still find some, I see some Mages but it's the unfortunate people who invested all their dust in a 19k deck and now can't get refunds enough to craft one of the other strong decks. Highlander hunter, was already being played successfully. All the murlocs and quest shamans and pallis also. Priests, oh well, go to wild and be hated there, no place for them in standard, although the quest has potential. Again, a great card no one asks for support that will disappear because blizz is nerfing the other good ones. What else, zoolock, it's the only way to go for warlock, after loosing core cards and mechanics also because of hof and nerfs. Also cool to refer that discard was never properly taken in account and synergies were implemented too late. Now it's the lackey era, but with no proper lackey generation. If only they printed more good cards instead of rubbish useless ones (are you seeing a pattern here?). Druids, that at the beginning of the expansion seemed unstopable but now they fall down before or after the midgame, still, fun expensive decks, or good old tokens because of course the ramp identity of druids went down the drain, with nerfs. Rogues, that unbelievably still manage to survive after every identity defining trait has been obliterated. Aggro/tempo archetypes that kill you before turn 7 or they are dead. Same decks as before, not having much more play.
So, after the nerfs, you have people playing basically the same decks, with the best one disappearing and people rotating to the previously existing ones, until one stands out, and then we are back to the beginning.
One important fact, I din't played the nerfed decks, warrior was boring to play, and mage needed a lot of expensive cards. Even so, I think and will stand for my belief that nerfs do worse than good, and we are downgrading instead of upgrading. Yes, the power creep theory, I don't buy it! Power creep away, find new mechanics, make others work properly, DEVELOP, don't downgrade. especially don't downgrade our resources constantly. Have you realised the game more than tripled it's cost in 2 years? What if no new players get into it? We all need the f2p players for the game to be viable, or it will turn into artifact. Of the persons that got me to play this, not one still plays it, because of the huge cost and constant nerfs, being impossible to stabilize without buying bundles. Few rotated to physical tcg's because and I quote "in here, you have physical cards and they can't nerf them" and the others just went to other games.
TL/DR: Nerfs just increase the cost of the game, changes in meta are temporary, eventually other decks will feel OP and the cycle will never end, with players being milked out of resources and stuck with useless cards.
There is a difference between relative powerlevel spikes within a meta, and something that threatens variety...
Nerfs are not all the same BS.
Ofc nerfs are not always right, but that's another story.
Nerfs hit (or should hit) what is powerful and so frequent as to warp the meta around them, impairing the viability of other decks, that should presumably be there in the devs' plans. That's much more precise than nerfs hitting top tier decks. Not all top tier decks deserve nerfs.
The "there will always be a new t1" story is a false argument, because it is a simplification of what is the scope of nerfs.
Do you really want this guy to spawn from random effects? I am afraid every time I generate a random 4 drop/legendary already..
Well, why not?
The 4-mana thing is already in place.
And there are already tons of Elementals or Demons that are nearly unplayable when randomly generated (without synergy), so that's an extremely limited downside. Not much worse than the current situation. And not so much of a downside at all when playing against a Renodeck.
But the rebranding could make those cards viable in some lists, and that's a great upside.
Because it's the worst card that you can get randomly generated on board I am not only talking about current cards but there could be a card that generates a 4 cost elemental or a random elemental (such card won't see play but arena exists) and it's such a feels bad card.
The card is bad, even when Raza priest was everywhere this card saw 0 play even then it's just not a good card.
But what is the REAL chance of randomly summoning it in the ever-growing pool of Elementals or Demons? It's not much worse than summoning a Fire Plume Harbinger. And the chance we'll ever get a card that specifically summons a 4-mana Elemental/Demon is definitely more remote than getting a Darkness from it.
It seems you are really afraid of The Darkness (sorry for the pun, but it was so fitting).
And the historical playrate of the card is actually an argument in favour of giving it a Tribe: it would have more chances to turn from meme to a decent tech.
Do you really want this guy to spawn from random effects? I am afraid every time I generate a random 4 drop/legendary already..
Well, why not?
The 4-mana thing is already in place.
And there are already tons of Elementals or Demons that are nearly unplayable when randomly generated (without synergy), so that's an extremely limited downside. Not much worse than the current situation. And not so much of a downside at all when playing against a Renodeck.
But the rebranding could make those cards viable in some lists, and that's a great upside.
Because it's the worst card that you can get randomly generated on board I am not only talking about current cards but there could be a card that generates a 4 cost elemental or a random elemental (such card won't see play but arena exists) and it's such a feels bad card.
The card is bad, even when Raza priest was everywhere this card saw 0 play even then it's just not a good card.
Do you really want this guy to spawn from random effects? I am afraid every time I generate a random 4 drop/legendary already..
Well, why not?
The generic 4-mana thing is already in place, so that's not an additional downside.
And there are already tons of Elementals or Demons that are nearly unplayable when randomly generated (without synergy), so that's an extremely limited downside. Not much worse than the current situation. And not so much of a downside at all when playing against a Renodeck.
But the rebranding could make those cards viable in some lists, and that's a great upside.
Uldum Essentials - An Adventurer's Guide to Questing in the Desert
All the decks sounds so good! I would like to have all quest cards for a day in order to test every kind of mechanic.
Even After Nerfs...
Interesting. Do you think N'zoth is worth crafting for wild in general?
Even After Nerfs...
Yeah, he should really label it "Just for Fun" or something...
League of Explorers
You'll want to check out this post
https://outof.cards/hearthstone/290-early-preview-of-the-league-revival-tavern-brawl-bosses-hero-powers-card-bundles
Vargoth Is Stealing Away!
Why two copies of Spectral Cutlass??
Maybe with another draw card mechanic as Raiding Party besides Cavern Shinyfinder could be viable but I don't want to imagine an hypothetical scenario when you need to use Reno and you're unable to do that because both weapons (and Shinyfinder, of course) remains at the bottom of your deck :(
Summoning Highkeeper Ra with EVERY Class!
With arugal you can also save up Arugal + 2x Arcane Intellect+Cultist+Banker. So when your deck is empty you play Cultist+Elekk+Banker+Banker=8 mana and 4 Cultists in deck, and then next turn you play Arugual + Arcane Intellect + Arcane Intellect which will then yield 1 (normal draw) + 4 (Arcane intellect #1) + 2 (Arcane Intellect #2) = 7 cultists in hand + 1 extra fatigue dmg tick. And then next turn you can OTK. But this needs an empty deck first and is therefore harder to pull off. If you do this when your deck has still one card left it will also work without a fatigue tick I think. Will try this out. Then the OTK can work without the need of galaxy being drawn before other cards, and you can use it in a deck that only draws as fast as possible.
Why was Aggro Priest nerfed so fast compared to pretty much all other aggro decks?
Nerfs seem to be happening faster after the expansion drop. They assess win rates and feedback and move quicker than before. The idea they moved faster on aggro Priest could just reflect this
Six Formats Hearthstone Could Easily Have
Legacy format:a subset of wild with an added set "ancient memories", with some card rotated here that won't be playable in wild. Those card are old card nerfed and then never used again reverted to an original status, like warsong commander. Some cards can exist both in this status and in their actual status, like Raza the Chained, but in this case you can only play the older one.
Friendly format: another subset of wild, but with some card banned, based on both winrate, presence and feels. Neutral cards can be restricted from some class, for example no Baku in paladin or rogue but yes Baku in druid. This is the place where to play meme deck vs meme deck.
Both this formats shouldn't have a ladder, only casual and friendly match.
Conjurer's Calling in Even Mage is pretty fun!
Maybe try out Explosive Sheep if aggro is causing you trouble.
Why was Aggro Priest nerfed so fast compared to pretty much all other aggro decks?
yea the high quantity of mages definitely put their winrate closer to 50%. they said the winrate of mages against other classes during the cast and it wasn't much higher than 50% but I can't find that number right now. Every deck can have bad hands that just lose. Combo priest wasn't that polarized actually, maybe with its draw but not its matchup spread.
I'm not even super adamant that priest was the best deck or anything, just going by winrates at legend and other things mentioned. The meta hadn't had time to turn against priest yet, and that may have happened, but at the time of the nerfs it had a really strong matchup spread and winrate and even if it isn't "the deck" it was still very close. I think the nerf made sense.
Summoning Highkeeper Ra with EVERY Class!
OMG! Even with mage. I will try this.
Correct me if I am wrong, but in order for the OTK to work you need to get at least one faceless to 1 mana and one banker/elekk to 1 mana using the galaxy spell.
If these conditions hold, you can in one turn play 1 Cultitst+2 Elekks + 2 Bankers = 10 mana to get 6 cultists in your deck.
Then you save up until you have all seven cultists in hand and that single 1-mana faceless (and hope your board is empty by then :).
Suppose you are trying for some OTK, you can add Jepetto, Malygos, Antonidas etc. and need only 6 extra slots reserved for your Cultist package. And add Arugal for extra chances on extra cultists "for free". Interesting!!!
Tortollan Pilgrim
And now we can add to the list the Puzzle Box :)
Even After Nerfs...
I've found it to be consistent enough. You can also get Clockwork Giant by CCing a Mountain Giant sometimes as another way to trigger Blastmage.
After having taken out Missile Launcher, Goblin Blastmage is the only Mech synergy card in the deck. The Piloted mechs are in here more for CC and N'Zoth Synergy and Snowchugger is just a good 2 drop for Even Mage.
Lich King vs Mech Warrior (use Platebreaker!)
a good start more like god start!!! this deck is trash and so are you!!! and we just have your word that this crock of poop worked even once. if I were you, which I am, I would give up deck building!!!
The Way-Too-Early-Nerf Thread
Quest Paladin is a great counter to warrior, it was already before the nerfs!
Highrolling Murloc Palli is also a counter to almost everything, then again, this is and always be "drawstone", since it is a card game.
Luna's was exactly like Keleseth, if you got it, you win the game, it's a highroll. And Barnes is not the Priest problem in wild, is the insane amount of resurrect they have, never having great viable decks in standard, but accumulating resurrect mechanics in wild for years.
Yes, I loved the DK cards, and as it seems, they are proved great ones, hence the complaints about warrior. Every class should have a DK or Jaraxxus in standard. Fun cards, with swing effects.
Yes I do expect a card printed to be playable, is that too much to ask? If not, don't print them, release less but with quality. Not understanding your point here. You go to a restaurant, it is expectable that everything in the menu is possible to eat? Or will restaurants now provide rocks or plastic toys in the menu for you NOT TO EAT, but just being there, in the menu, because somehow it looks cool...?!
I agree that new cards and decks see play after nerfs, it's a change, there's an adaptation, obviously. But was it that swingy?
Less control warrior but I still find some, I see some Mages but it's the unfortunate people who invested all their dust in a 19k deck and now can't get refunds enough to craft one of the other strong decks.
Highlander hunter, was already being played successfully.
All the murlocs and quest shamans and pallis also.
Priests, oh well, go to wild and be hated there, no place for them in standard, although the quest has potential. Again, a great card no one asks for support that will disappear because blizz is nerfing the other good ones.
What else, zoolock, it's the only way to go for warlock, after loosing core cards and mechanics also because of hof and nerfs. Also cool to refer that discard was never properly taken in account and synergies were implemented too late. Now it's the lackey era, but with no proper lackey generation. If only they printed more good cards instead of rubbish useless ones (are you seeing a pattern here?).
Druids, that at the beginning of the expansion seemed unstopable but now they fall down before or after the midgame, still, fun expensive decks, or good old tokens because of course the ramp identity of druids went down the drain, with nerfs.
Rogues, that unbelievably still manage to survive after every identity defining trait has been obliterated. Aggro/tempo archetypes that kill you before turn 7 or they are dead. Same decks as before, not having much more play.
So, after the nerfs, you have people playing basically the same decks, with the best one disappearing and people rotating to the previously existing ones, until one stands out, and then we are back to the beginning.
One important fact, I din't played the nerfed decks, warrior was boring to play, and mage needed a lot of expensive cards.
Even so, I think and will stand for my belief that nerfs do worse than good, and we are downgrading instead of upgrading.
Yes, the power creep theory, I don't buy it! Power creep away, find new mechanics, make others work properly, DEVELOP, don't downgrade. especially don't downgrade our resources constantly.
Have you realised the game more than tripled it's cost in 2 years? What if no new players get into it? We all need the f2p players for the game to be viable, or it will turn into artifact. Of the persons that got me to play this, not one still plays it, because of the huge cost and constant nerfs, being impossible to stabilize without buying bundles. Few rotated to physical tcg's because and I quote "in here, you have physical cards and they can't nerf them" and the others just went to other games.
TL/DR:
Nerfs just increase the cost of the game, changes in meta are temporary, eventually other decks will feel OP and the cycle will never end, with players being milked out of resources and stuck with useless cards.
Quest Trading - Play A Friend!
Battletag: HaVoC#2426
Region: EU
Trade Only?: Yes, you go first
The Way-Too-Early-Nerf Thread
There is a difference between relative powerlevel spikes within a meta, and something that threatens variety...
Nerfs are not all the same BS.
Ofc nerfs are not always right, but that's another story.
Nerfs hit (or should hit) what is powerful and so frequent as to warp the meta around them, impairing the viability of other decks, that should presumably be there in the devs' plans. That's much more precise than nerfs hitting top tier decks. Not all top tier decks deserve nerfs.
The "there will always be a new t1" story is a false argument, because it is a simplification of what is the scope of nerfs.
Summoning Highkeeper Ra with EVERY Class!
Nice one! All 9 classes! That's impressive!
Rock, Paper, Scissors - SMOrcy Dorks, Holy Leisure, and Quintessential Moonfare
Highlander Hunter should be the Midrange example. Even all the text in the midrange section is dedicated for it.
Aggro should showcase an actual aggro deck, e.g.
Wild · Tempo Rogue · by FrostyFeet · 7 years, 1 month ago
Should The Darkness have a Tribe tag?
But what is the REAL chance of randomly summoning it in the ever-growing pool of Elementals or Demons? It's not much worse than summoning a Fire Plume Harbinger. And the chance we'll ever get a card that specifically summons a 4-mana Elemental/Demon is definitely more remote than getting a Darkness from it.
It seems you are really afraid of The Darkness (sorry for the pun, but it was so fitting).
And the historical playrate of the card is actually an argument in favour of giving it a Tribe: it would have more chances to turn from meme to a decent tech.
Six Formats Hearthstone Could Easily Have
The Pyramid idea is fantastic, forcing people to play underused cards will find so many unknown combos.
I could give some of the under performing quests a chance to shine in a format!
Should The Darkness have a Tribe tag?
Because it's the worst card that you can get randomly generated on board I am not only talking about current cards but there could be a card that generates a 4 cost elemental or a random elemental (such card won't see play but arena exists) and it's such a feels bad card.
The card is bad, even when Raza priest was everywhere this card saw 0 play even then it's just not a good card.
Should The Darkness have a Tribe tag?
Well, why not?
The generic 4-mana thing is already in place, so that's not an additional downside.
And there are already tons of Elementals or Demons that are nearly unplayable when randomly generated (without synergy), so that's an extremely limited downside. Not much worse than the current situation. And not so much of a downside at all when playing against a Renodeck.
But the rebranding could make those cards viable in some lists, and that's a great upside.
Even After Nerfs...
This is a tier z deck don't bother
Summoning Highkeeper Ra with EVERY Class!
Very fun and entertaining! Sad that these Mogu Cultist Decks are not Ladder Viable - they sure look like a lot of fun :)