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Hearthstone | Posted by | 6 years, 1 month ago
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Dragon's Hoard into Dark Pharoah Tekhan should not be allowed.

I've been on both the giving and receiving end of this. If you discover Dark Pharaoh Tekahn from Dragon's Hoard and you're playing Galakrond (what Rogue isn't right now?), you have access to unlimited 1-mana 4/4s. This makes you like a heroic adventure boss. I completely thrashed my opponent when I got this combo, and got completely thrashed when an opponent did. They just made it so Dragonqueen Alexstrasza cannot create herself. This seems like a fair change too. Both situations are going to happen very rarely anyway, but when they do, it just ain't fair. 

Thoughts?

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  • I've been on both the giving and receiving end of this. If you discover Dark Pharaoh Tekahn from Dragon's Hoard and you're playing Galakrond (what Rogue isn't right now?), you have access to unlimited 1-mana 4/4s. This makes you like a heroic adventure boss. I completely thrashed my opponent when I got this combo, and got completely thrashed when an opponent did. They just made it so Dragonqueen Alexstrasza cannot create herself. This seems like a fair change too. Both situations are going to happen very rarely anyway, but when they do, it just ain't fair. 

    Thoughts?

  • I don't think it should be blocked. The whole allure of burgle rogue cards is the chance that by breaking class boundaries you might just get something that breaks the game.

    As for comparing it to Alex into Alex: that event may have been similarly rare but was much faster and a surprise board of huge dragons is a different problem to a board of 4/4s.

    If the concern is long term continuous 4/4s, there are more unfair things than that that no one worries about. E.g. Togwaggle's Scheme -> 15x Tess Greymane or Pogo-Hopper. These are more meme-y, but still way more consistent.

    • You're right about Alex into Alex creating a surprise huge board. That is a different thing.

      But Pogos and Tess? You can make a lot of them with the right set up, but not infinite, and you have to draw them. Once you've become Galakrond, your hero power gives you lackeys, plus you can keep invoking to get more. That's a lot of 4/4s. I mean, how many times did they nerf The Caverns Below?

      • Quote From Pezman

        You're right about Alex into Alex creating a surprise huge board. That is a different thing.

        But Pogos and Tess? You can make a lot of them with the right set up, but not infinite, and you have to draw them. Once you've become Galakrond, your hero power gives you lackeys, plus you can keep invoking to get more. That's a lot of 4/4s. I mean, how many times did they nerf The Caverns Below?

        Nonsense.

        In this case you defnitely cannot get infinite lackeys, just like you cannot get infinite pogos/Tess from Toggwaggle's Scheme. You have one lackey per turn + few lackeys from invoking (4-6 max)

        Getting the Tekahn is really highroll but quite rare one so it is good to have in the game for creating funny stories.

        • Actually, generating lackeys with your hero power is absolutely infinite lackeys. You can keep doing it once a turn, every turn, regardless of whether you have any cards or not.

          I agree that it's a highroll, and rare, and makes a great story. It felt bad to lose to it, and it felt unfair to win with it. Those are just my impressions.

        • Quote From Alfi
          Quote From Pezman

          You're right about Alex into Alex creating a surprise huge board. That is a different thing.

          But Pogos and Tess? You can make a lot of them with the right set up, but not infinite, and you have to draw them. Once you've become Galakrond, your hero power gives you lackeys, plus you can keep invoking to get more. That's a lot of 4/4s. I mean, how many times did they nerf The Caverns Below?

          Nonsense.

          In this case you defnitely cannot get infinite lackeys, just like you cannot get infinite pogos/Tess from Toggwaggle's Scheme. You have one lackey per turn + few lackeys from invoking (4-6 max)

          Getting the Tekahn is really highroll but quite rare one so it is good to have in the game for creating funny stories.

          Whether it's infinite in a single turn or just a never ending supply of lackeys by having a 1 mana 4/4 each turn through the hero power (so really a 3 mana 4/4 at that point) they are still technically "infinite".  But yeah, that's splitting hairs at this point.  I agree though not a huge issue as it will be inconsistent and more of a "let me tell you a crazy story" type of thing like you said.

          EDIT: You can get semi-infinite in a single turn through the new legendary Grand Lackey Erkh.  If you have to hit the hero power and drop Erkh that is 4+2+1, leaving only 3 more mana to play generated Lackey's that turn unless you've reduce the cost of Erkh or have a Lackey in hand without hitting the hero power button.

      • Quote From Pezman

        You're right about Alex into Alex creating a surprise huge board. That is a different thing.

        But Pogos and Tess? You can make a lot of them with the right set up, but not infinite, and you have to draw them. Once you've become Galakrond, your hero power gives you lackeys, plus you can keep invoking to get more. That's a lot of 4/4s. I mean, how many times did they nerf The Caverns Below?

        First off, there is no true infinite in HS without using Nozdormu turn reset shenanigans, because there is a finite number of turns before the game is declared a draw. 

        Regardless, you can make more than enough Tesses or Pogos for other decks to handle, so they are 'endless' within the scope of the game in that you win while still having many turns of them left to come. But what I really meant to get at was that I would rather face down 1 or 2 4/4s each turn than a Tess or an ever-growing Pogo.

        The Caverns Below looks and smells the same but it isn't. It didn't even have positive win rates most of the time. The issue with that deck was due to the sheer prevalence of it which made people dislike playing against it, and that it locked control decks out of the meta. If for whatever reason only 1% of players played it, it would not have warped the meta and no one would have had a problem with the deck. The same goes for Tekhan now: it appears so rarely in rogue that the effect on the meta and the game as a whole is negligible.

        Look at it this way: you can count the number of times you have seen it happen since the release of DoD on one hand right? Now how many times have you won or lost due to other crazy luck in the same time? Way more I bet, so why does this rare event concern you?

  • Definitely a non-issue. Way too big card pool to be consistent.

    Staff

  • Also to note - as a long-time Quest Rogue player, the idea of calling one 4/4 a turn 'infinite' is laughable :P

    • "Infinite" does not mean "lots of". It means "without end, limitless." If your hero power generates a lackey, you have access to infinite lackeys. No, the game will not go on infinitely, but you will never run out of lackeys.

      Anyway, I think a lot of good points got made here, and I do not think Blizzard should do anything about this after all. I appreciate the discussion people had. Not sure why I got downvoted a bunch. I upvote people for having a good chat with me, even if I disagree with them.

  • The factors to winning with Dark Pharaoh Tekahn for rogue;

    - Draw Dragon's Hoard - No easy feat in of itself. Literally highrolling every turn to get it

    - Get Dark Pharaoh Tekahn from the discover - Another highroll

    - Actually have lackeys - Easy enough, but no one hoards their lackeys for a possible tekahn

    - Not die - Most rogue games don't go the distance. And rogue has the worst healing among the 9 classes. So this is yet another tall order for rogue

    - Your opponent is an aggro-midrange deck that cannot kill you fast enough - From my experience most rogue games are decided around turn 7

     

    So highroll to highroll, with the greatest highroll being that you face an opponent who isn't playing an aggro deck. Sums up that the only tier 1-2 deck you're gonna realistically have a chance to beat with tekahn as your win condition is highlander mage and highlander control warrior, or control warrior.

    Yep, definitely no problems here.

    Friendly

  • By the way, we have ~98 class legendaries in the standard, excluding Rogue ones (2 legendaries in 8 classes in 6 expansions + 2 legendaries in Galakronds Awakening). So getting the Tekahn have 3/98 = 3% chance.

    It is a very bold move to put your hopes in an occurence which happens once in 33 games.

  • Had that happen against me once, got destroyed, at that point you should just laugh it off, its a rediculous highroll, but still a highroll, it happens.

  • I also had it happen to me once maybe twice and I remember wondering "hey wasn't that card for locks only and why is it purple" only a lot later it occurred to me it must have been the discover.

    Sure it is not funny to play against but burglar rogue has a lot more not so funny stuff I remember one time the rogue  discoverd all mage cards I would like to have had in my hand (like Reno and Antonidas) and they were even active so I got completely utterly destroyed by my own cards and some generated fireballs. 

  • This topic belongs to https://outof.cards/forums/hearthstone/hearthstone-general/27-group-therapy-need-to-blow-off-some-steam-mega-salty-heres-the-place

    • It totally does not. No one here is salty, we're just discussing a very powerful card interaction. If you read my original post, you'd see that I talked about winning a game with this combo, as well as losing one.

      • Quote From Pezman

        It totally does not. No one here is salty, we're just discussing a very powerful card interaction. If you read my original post, you'd see that I talked about winning a game with this combo, as well as losing one.

        You write it smarter than the usual type of player, but it doesnt change what it is that you complain about RNG, even you admitted yourself the chances to get this card in rogue by chance is very slim and still you are demanding to restrict this possiblity for rogue? Sorry, but how is this is not salt?

        Theoretically your demand is basically saying "NO" to Burgle Rogue, because Burgle Rogue can make stupid things in a few matches.

        Please. Don't start this. I hate these types of comments. They are dumb, pointless, not funny, and they degenerate the quality of each thread they are in.

        Like the type of threads with the name "card x into y should not be allowed", typical salt threads.

        • Quote From Yusuke

          You write it smarter than the usual type of player

          Thanks!

          • I'm just gonna reply to myself here before someone else calls me on it. Yes, it's wrong to misrepresent someone else's comments like I've done above. However, the comment I'm responding to misrepresents my original statement. I'm not "demanding" anything, and I'm not really even complaining either.

            I love to come to this forum to discuss Hearthstone with other players. I started this thread to see what other players thought about the Tekahn interaction. Most people replied to point out how rare it is, and that it's not an issue. I agree. A few replied to say that they had also encountered it, and basically, yeah that's crazy good luck if you pull that off. I think that's kind of what I was going for in the first place. I'm not going to edit the thread title and pretend I didn't say the combo "should not be allowed." But I will say here that I no longer see it as an issue, just a crazy powerful synergy that you are incredibly unlikely to pull off.

            Thanks to Alfi above for doing the math. 3% chance to get Tekahn? I'm certainly not banking on that. Out of curiosity, how many dragons are there and what are the chances Alex would give you herself (pre-nerf)?

    • Quote From Yusuke

      This topic belongs to https://outof.cards/forums/hearthstone/hearthstone-general/27-group-therapy-need-to-blow-off-some-steam-mega-salty-heres-the-place

      Please. Don't start this. I hate these types of comments. They are dumb, pointless, not funny, and they degenerate the quality of each thread they are in.

      Friendly