Blizzard's Celestalon Talks Demon Hunter, Scholomance Academy, and New Classes in Hearthstone

Published 5 years, 8 months ago by

Even during this busy reveal period, Chadd "Celestalon" Nervig found time to visit a Hearthstone podcast Doctor3, where he talked about expansion creation, Demon Hunter, the new dual-class cards, and more! We've listed some of the highlights down below.

Quote From Celestalon

Everything below has been paraphrased and should not be considered a direct quote.

Demon Hunter

  • Overall the implementation of the new class went well.
  • The goal was to distinguish it from other classes, so it wouldn't feel like a hybrid of existing classes.
  • They were prepared for quick and frequent balance changes.
  • In retrospect, there's no doubt the class went out too strong, but he'd rather ship it as too strong than too weak.
  • The Demon Hunter Hero Power had many changes during development, even late in the process.
  • One of the potential class mechanics during development (instead of Outcast) was a one-time effect that triggered when damaging the enemy hero.

Scholomance

  • Scholomance as a theme idea had been around quite a while.
  • Spellburst's one-time trigger allowed more powerful effects than the traditional multi-trigger cards like Wild Pyromancer have.
  • The dual-class pairings went through some iterations.
    • One option was having only 5 pairs.
    • They also tried having multiple pairings for each class, but it was very complicated.
    • A lot of the pairings came quite naturally, both thematically and gameplay-wise.
    • He thinks Warrior/Paladin might have been a pairing that changed during design.
    • He sees the dual-class cards as build-arounds rather than just support cards.
    • He doesn't think these cards blur class identity, as they're designed to be on the gameplay/flavor overlap of the classes.

Miscellaneous

  • Expansion creation processes are very collaborative and include brainstorm meetings and sticky notes.
    • They don't feel tied down with Warcraft lore, continue to do twists on themes.
    • They love how the year-long narrative of Year of the Dragon turned out, and remain open to the idea of doing it again.
  • There will be no new classes any time soon.
  • He tries to answer the questions sent to him on social media, especially those that haven't been answered yet elsewhere.
  • He didn't want to name any favorite places in WoW that Hearthstone could explore in the future (so that people wouldn't read into it).
  • Zephrys the Great remains his favorite card, he's even thinking about getting a Zephrys tattoo.

Hearthstone New Class Takeaway

Based on the interview, we have these main takeaways from new classes in Hearthstone.

  • They aren't afraid to make them overpowered to start with. Feels better to nerf than to need to buff.
  • Reacting quickly with game balance patches for a new class is important.
  • A new class has to have its own design space. It can't just feel like existing classes mashed together.

It's no surprise as to why we won't see a new class for a while!

Listen to Episode 58 of Doctor3

You can listen to the full podcast here or down below.

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Comments

  • Thanks for the summary and the info. Much appreciated. 

  • a Zephrys tattoo... that's dedication

    Friendly

  • And there goes my theory that they were going to release a new class at the start of the next two years. 

  • A lot of these you can already know from the outside without needing to ask a dev:

    Overall the implementation of the new class went well.

    True it did, everyone to this day is still spamming the class.

    The goal was to distinguish it from other classes, so it wouldn't feel like a hybrid of existing classes.

    dapperdog says it feels more of a fusion of rogue and hunter, i disagree. I feel the class is it's own thing and exists in it's own space. The reason it feels like rogue and hunter is it takes aspects of the worst aggro things from both and makes it their own thing. (Minions that have a special effect if you've attacked for example and weapons that were probably made for board control used just to attack face(desert spear))

    They were prepared for quick and frequent balance changes.

    Frequent? Yes. Quick? You could argue, but let's be fair here for once. They came out with nerfs pretty quick, but cards like Eye Beam, Skull of Gul'dan Battlefiend, etc, etc, were always going to be busted, and to me it feels like certain cards they knew would be too good, and released them as is anyway and were already prepared with how they would be changed already, which leads me to my next point.

    In retrospect, there's no doubt the class went out too strong, but he'd rather ship it as too strong than too weak.

    They would rather the class be too strong, than too weak. Because it attracts new players, it's shiny and new and the cards have to be busted to create a feel-good-to-play-the-game machine for players coming into hearthstone in order for them to stay on board. When demon hunter released and you could argue still. In wild Demon Hunters are just running all class card decks and winning with them, should this be a thing? Doesn't this show imbalance in class cards to where they don't need neutrals? I am against it personally.

    The Demon Hunter Hero Power had many changes during development, even late in the process.

    It would have been interesting to see a hero power that shifted in a base class instead of a hero card. Maybe something that favors control demon hunter on one side of the coin and an aggressive style on the other. But what it is now is just so limited you have to play aggro in the class. Not like that's a limited design space, since Demon Hunters have the best aggro style cards in the game.

    One of the potential class mechanics during development (instead of Outcast) was a one-time effect that triggered when damaging the enemy hero.

    Another thing pointing to Demon Hunter being based around being a straight out aggro style class since development. People think outcast is something Demon Hunters need to work hard to achieve for some reason and it's just a joke. When all your cards in your deck cost 5 or less it's not hard to clear your hand or work a single card with a beneficial effect to the left side of it.

    • Quote From clawz161
      Another thing pointing to Demon Hunter being based around being a straight out aggro style class since development.

      that's not completely true. The devs said that DH was designed as a class that constantly pressures you, but quickly runs out of rescources later in the game due the lack of card generation. But the class can achive that in more ways than just aggro.

      Big DH for example can pressure you early by cheating out big deamons starting on turn 5. Some of the alternative HP also supported that slower playstyle like "2 mana deal 2 damage to a minion and your hero"(removed because it was to frustrating to play against) and "2 mana gain +1 attack, can be used twice each turn"(removed because most of the time it was just a worse druid HP)

      • Quote From Suchti0352
        Quote From clawz161
        Another thing pointing to Demon Hunter being based around being a straight out aggro style class since development.

        that's not completely true. The devs said that DH was designed as a class that constantly pressures you, but quickly runs out of rescources later in the game due the lack of card generation. But the class can achive that in more ways than just aggro.

        Big DH for example can pressure you early by cheating out big deamons starting on turn 5. Some of the alternative HP also supported that slower playstyle like "2 mana deal 2 damage to a minion and your hero"(removed because it was to frustrating to play against) and "2 mana gain +1 attack, can be used twice each turn"(removed because most of the time it was just a worse druid HP)

        Big DH isn't successful atm even though Team 5 tried to push it, purely due to the hero power. It's the same reason why we've never seen an aggro Priest or control hunter (not counting highlander hunter as control). The class hero power greatly dictates the play style and possible archetypes for the class. The other reason why DH is so OP is coz their "weaknesses and limitations" aren't really seen that way. Card draw trumps card generation every time, except when in fatigue and due to DH's most successful archetypes, they end games before fatigue.

      • Quote From Suchti0352
        Quote From clawz161
        Another thing pointing to Demon Hunter being based around being a straight out aggro style class since development.

        that's not completely true. The devs said that DH was designed as a class that constantly pressures you, but quickly runs out of rescources later in the game due the lack of card generation. But the class can achive that in more ways than just aggro.

        Big DH for example can pressure you early by cheating out big deamons starting on turn 5. Some of the alternative HP also supported that slower playstyle like "2 mana deal 2 damage to a minion and your hero"(removed because it was to frustrating to play against) and "2 mana gain +1 attack, can be used twice each turn"(removed because most of the time it was just a worse druid HP)

        Neutral has enough card generation to where a classes weakness being bad card generation (which they didnt even stick to since they have a demon that discovers another demon in their classic set) is a joke. And a class having a joke weakness and being good at everything else is a joke as well. Also everyone keeps talking about "big demon hunter" but I have never seen in in wild or standard. It's just the same old same old tempo demon hunter where they always curve you out never wasting any mana.

      • Yeah, except DH has some of the best draw resources in the game. It's not fun to lose to a deck that hits fatigue 15 cards earlier than your draw-heavy control deck. It's no solace to think, ah, if only I had lasted another three turns they would have finally run out of resources.

        The most fundamental design-flaw for DH is the 1-mana hero power. They needed to find a balanced 2-mana hero power.

         

        • 2 mana/2 attack

        • Quote From Firenza

          Yeah, except DH has some of the best draw resources in the game. It's not fun to lose to a deck that hits fatigue 15 cards earlier than your draw-heavy control deck. It's no solace to think, ah, if only I had lasted another three turns they would have finally run out of resources.

          The most fundamental design-flaw for DH is the 1-mana hero power. They needed to find a balanced 2-mana hero power.

           

          I always thought a good hero power in flavor for illidan would be the classic deal one damage to a minion give it +1/+2 attack. Since illidan is all about hurting elves and Nelfs to give them power. You could still aggro with it, and you could also control with it and it could still be 1 mana with the +1 version.

      • Quote From Suchti0352
        Quote From clawz161
        Another thing pointing to Demon Hunter being based around being a straight out aggro style class since development.

        that's not completely true. The devs said that DH was designed as a class that constantly pressures you, but quickly runs out of rescources later in the game due the lack of card generation. But the class can achive that in more ways than just aggro.

        Big DH for example can pressure you early by cheating out big deamons starting on turn 5. Some of the alternative HP also supported that slower playstyle like "2 mana deal 2 damage to a minion and your hero"(removed because it was to frustrating to play against) and "2 mana gain +1 attack, can be used twice each turn"(removed because most of the time it was just a worse druid HP)

        Except DH never runs out of resources because it have the best card draw in the game. 

        6 mana draw 3 set their cost to 0, 1 mana 1/1 draw a card, 2 mana draw 2, etc.

  • Well, we more or less could guess that it was shipped out too strong.

    But if the idea was to distinguish it from other classes, etc. Then its obvious that it has somewhat failed. So far dhunters plays a lot like rogue + hunter, except they have the option to heal.

    Whether the implementation went well, I think there's more than enough bile and brimstones in all corners of the public to disagree with that opinion. I personally think after the final nerf, which specifically hit warglaives, dhunters eventually became a decent enough class. But there seriously needs to be some sort of a review, at least in future expansions, so it doesnt seem like it can do just about everything.

    Friendly

    • I remember playing as a Priest against Demon Hunter after release, DH draw his entire deck without losing tempo by turn 10. 

       

      I lost and it felt bad, because I lost against a much better cards.

      • Dude... playing as Priest against DH now is an auto-win. Stop whining.

        • There's a difference between "now" and "after release". Nerfing 10+ cards does tend to make a class weaker.