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Hearthstone - Posted by - 3 years, 11 months ago
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Switcheroo Priest is the most miserable deck I've ever played against.

I never thought I would hate a deck more than Ignite Mage, but Switcheroo Priest came to my life and slapped me in the face. It's pretty much the C'thun Maxima Hunter deck but twice faster.

From my experience playing against them, they always manage to play their Switcheroo at turn 3 (Twice at turn two with a coin). They have a lot of cards that discover spells (Thrive in the Shadows, Illuminate, Shadow Visions) and good early game control.

I have no idea how to counter the deck. I've played Mech paladin with Annoy-o-Tron and then they just silence them. And even if they don't silence them, they can just kill them and proceed to ram my face with 40 damage. The only counter I can think of is Weasel Tunneler but that would mean that I have to put a card that's essentially useless in any other match, draw it before turn 3, kill it myself, and hope that it messes up their combo.

Yes, they automatically lose if they draw either boar or the Darkness, but that would mean that the way they lose is dependent on whether or not they're lucky. Which is you know, uninteractive.

My main problem with Switcheroo priest is that it's the combination of the fact that it's viable and quintessentially uninteractive. I hope team 5 addresses this AT LEAST in the first week, because this is just making the game not fun. Whenever I play against them, I'm not even playing a game, I'm just watching a video of a dude with a wide grin flipping me off. At least that's how it feels like.

Also, I'm 0 days old since I've learned that "Uninteractive" is not an actual word.

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  • I never thought I would hate a deck more than Ignite Mage, but Switcheroo Priest came to my life and slapped me in the face. It's pretty much the C'thun Maxima Hunter deck but twice faster.

    From my experience playing against them, they always manage to play their Switcheroo at turn 3 (Twice at turn two with a coin). They have a lot of cards that discover spells (Thrive in the Shadows, Illuminate, Shadow Visions) and good early game control.

    I have no idea how to counter the deck. I've played Mech paladin with Annoy-o-Tron and then they just silence them. And even if they don't silence them, they can just kill them and proceed to ram my face with 40 damage. The only counter I can think of is Weasel Tunneler but that would mean that I have to put a card that's essentially useless in any other match, draw it before turn 3, kill it myself, and hope that it messes up their combo.

    Yes, they automatically lose if they draw either boar or the Darkness, but that would mean that the way they lose is dependent on whether or not they're lucky. Which is you know, uninteractive.

    My main problem with Switcheroo priest is that it's the combination of the fact that it's viable and quintessentially uninteractive. I hope team 5 addresses this AT LEAST in the first week, because this is just making the game not fun. Whenever I play against them, I'm not even playing a game, I'm just watching a video of a dude with a wide grin flipping me off. At least that's how it feels like.

    Also, I'm 0 days old since I've learned that "Uninteractive" is not an actual word.

    • 100% agree, this deck has to be nerfed - they nerfed Darkest Hour Warlock for being similarly coinflippy but this is even worse and that one had more actual counters.

  • Does hunter essentially punishes this deck hard with Pressure Plate and Freezing Trap?

    Im not sure how team will address this problem, except nerfing boar or changing Switcheroo altogether. Its actually doing the same thing with twinfin/deathwing in standard too, but that is a much, much less problem than what wild is facing right now.

    Friendly
    • Quote From dapperdog

      Does hunter essentially punishes this deck hard with Pressure Plate and Freezing Trap?

      Im not sure how team will address this problem, except nerfing boar or changing Switcheroo altogether. Its actually doing the same thing with twinfin/deathwing in standard too, but that is a much, much less problem than what wild is facing right now.

      It does, but that's a class limited solution. Warriors can also deal with them by gaining more than 10 armor and kill both boars.

      Also even if boar is nerfed there's still Bluegill Warrior and Wolfrider. They're slower sure, but still the same problems.

      • Quote From sense124
        Quote From dapperdog

        Does hunter essentially punishes this deck hard with Pressure Plate and Freezing Trap?

        Im not sure how team will address this problem, except nerfing boar or changing Switcheroo altogether. Its actually doing the same thing with twinfin/deathwing in standard too, but that is a much, much less problem than what wild is facing right now.

        It does, but that's a class limited solution. Warriors can also deal with them by gaining more than 10 armor and kill both boars.

        Also even if boar is nerfed there's still Bluegill Warrior and Wolfrider. They're slower sure, but still the same problems.

        I guess there is a neutral option, in the form of Blademaster Okani, but I suspect that's far too late. Its still an option though.

        Friendly
        • Quote From dapperdog
          Quote From sense124
          Quote From dapperdog

          Does hunter essentially punishes this deck hard with Pressure Plate and Freezing Trap?

          Im not sure how team will address this problem, except nerfing boar or changing Switcheroo altogether. Its actually doing the same thing with twinfin/deathwing in standard too, but that is a much, much less problem than what wild is facing right now.

          It does, but that's a class limited solution. Warriors can also deal with them by gaining more than 10 armor and kill both boars.

          Also even if boar is nerfed there's still Bluegill Warrior and Wolfrider. They're slower sure, but still the same problems.

          I guess there is a neutral option, in the form of Blademaster Okani, but I suspect that's far too late. Its still an option though.

          Yeah, I thought of that card and Hecklebot. They're both kinda too late to be played.

          • Quote From sense124
            Show Spoiler
            Quote From dapperdog
            Quote From sense124
            Quote From dapperdog

            Does hunter essentially punishes this deck hard with Pressure Plate and Freezing Trap?

            Im not sure how team will address this problem, except nerfing boar or changing Switcheroo altogether. Its actually doing the same thing with twinfin/deathwing in standard too, but that is a much, much less problem than what wild is facing right now.

            It does, but that's a class limited solution. Warriors can also deal with them by gaining more than 10 armor and kill both boars.

            Also even if boar is nerfed there's still Bluegill Warrior and Wolfrider. They're slower sure, but still the same problems.

            I guess there is a neutral option, in the form of Blademaster Okani, but I suspect that's far too late. Its still an option though.

            Yeah, I thought of that card and Hecklebot. They're both kinda too late to be played.

            There's also one more option, which is Deathlord. But you still have to have a way to kill it. But hilariously these are simply too slow to counter this deck.

            Friendly

  • Releasing Switcheroo at 3 Mana was a mistake. It should cost (4) like Prismatic Lens. And then also ban Boar from Wild format. On the contrary, Warlock can use Ritual of Doom on Deathlord to get an instant interruption. Mages also have Ice Block/Potion of Polymorph/Vaporize/Spellbender/Counterspell, Paladins have Judgment of Justice/Noble Sacrifice/Oh My Yogg!/Rebuke and Rogues have Evasion/Sudden Betrayal/Shenanigans.

    • Quote From Neoguli

      Releasing Switcheroo at 3 Mana was a mistake. It should cost (4) like Prismatic Lens.

      4 mana wouldn`t make a difference.

      An otk enabler should cost at least 6 mana like Darkest Hour did.

  • Even if counters exist: it's still a coinflip and nothing a player does matters in any way. They have the combo or they don't. You have the possible counter or you don't - next game. Rock-Paper-Scissors has more interactity and can be played for free.

    • Yes, the deck is reliant on the game being nice to you, but at least there are viable counters to the strategy. If my proposed ones would emerge, then Priest would need to run anti-Secret minions, and that diludes their Switcheroo pool.

      • Quote From Neoguli

        Yes, the deck is reliant on the game being nice to you, but at least there are viable counters to the strategy. If my proposed ones would emerge, then Priest would need to run anti-Secret minions, and that diludes their Switcheroo pool.

        Most of your proposed counters are only viable in a sense that it technically counters it.

        • The Warlock Ritual of Doom targetting Deathlord is a two-card combo for an effect that's already available for a single card which is Hecklebot. Sure it's three mana, but you need those two specific cards at turn three to counter it.
        • Ice Block doesn't counter the combo, you merely extend your life in which then you then need to answer the 20/20 or kill the opponent. And the other secrets are just trash in other matchups.
        • Same goes for the paladin and Rogue cards. Maybe except for Oh My Yogg! and Evasion. But then again, you can play around Oh My Yogg! and Evasion has the same problem as Ice Block.

        Also, not every deck just wants to run the cards that you proposed, especially if they're only good against Switcheroo Priest. At least Golakka Crawler and Living Dragonbreath have vanilla stats to make up for their specific effect.

        Plus they're all class specific counters, so I guess the other classes can go fuck themselves then.

        Oh, and Hecklebot is a death sentence against Kael'thas druid, which is pretty much Switcheroo Priest's older brother.

        • It is what it is. Those classes can build decks around the technical techs into Switcheroo Priest, even if they are otherwise subpar into other decks nor are their strongest decks, but if the Switcheroo Priest is so dominant, then those specific counters can shine and see regular play to some extent.

          • Quote From Neoguli

            It is what it is. Those classes can build decks around the technical techs into Switcheroo Priest, even if they are otherwise subpar into other decks nor are their strongest decks, but if the Switcheroo Priest is so dominant, then those specific counters can shine and see regular play to some extent.

            Which is exactly why the deck needs to go.

            I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. Are you trying to defend this deck for at least having a counter to it? Every deck technically has a counter if you look hard enough. But if a singular deck would make all other decks run cards for the sole reason to counter that deck then the problem isn't on the player, it's the deck's fault. Your reasoning shouldn't be a norm in deckbuilding.

            When I say "Sole Reason", I mean that the card is essentially useless in other matchups. So Golakka Crawler, Living Dragonbreath, and Skulking Geist doesn't count.

            • I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. Are you trying to defend this deck for at least having a counter to it?

              PSA you are talking to someone who tried to defend Questline Warlock back in its S-tier Wild hayday (I argued it should be slowed down and not outright banned). I can apply the same principle to Switcheroo Priest, because I do like that it opens a door for people to further express themselves by enjoying playing these highrolly decks, just like I argued QL Warlock was the new Jade Druid-like deck for people who enjoyed that playstyle. I oppose kneecapping decks, because they can curve out a niche, unless they are literally impossible to balance and need a rework to enable more design meta and more meta diversity.

              That said, I would start by nerfing Switcheroo first to weaken both Standard and Wild versions, then see if it continues to overperform in either format and cause metagame damage even when nerfed.

              • Quote From Neoguli

                I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. Are you trying to defend this deck for at least having a counter to it?

                PSA you are talking to someone who tried to defend Questline Warlock back in its S-tier Wild hayday (I argued it should be slowed down and not outright banned). I can apply the same principle to Switcheroo Priest, because I do like that it opens a door for people to further express themselves by enjoying playing these highrolly decks, just like I argued QL Warlock was the new Jade Druid-like deck for people who enjoyed that playstyle. I oppose kneecapping decks, because they can curve out a niche, unless they are literally impossible to balance and need a rework to enable more design meta and more meta diversity.

                That said, I would start by nerfing Switcheroo first to weaken both Standard and Wild versions, then see if it continues to overperform in either format and cause metagame damage even when nerfed.

                Ah well, to each his own. I still believe that the deck needs to go because sure I can see people enjoying Switcheroo priest because it's highrolly and it ends games fast whether or not they win, but it still creates an unhealthy game environment for other people that are forced to play against it.

                Also when I say I want the deck to be gone, I meant to take it away from viability. I can withstand playing against a coinflip deck IF the deck is not meta. Heck, I would even laugh and clap in real life. But when I see the same coinflip over and over and over again, it gets very old.

  • Btw what happens in Standard mirror? They exchange Twin-Fins and then wait who concedes or fatigues first?

  • Switcheroo could also switch mana costs but that feels like a different nightmare waiting to happen.

  • It could only switch health. That way Priest can do Blessing things.

    • It fixes the issue with the Twin-fin variant, but it nowhere does the same justice to Boar variant. Divine Spirit and Inner Fire still exist, and 20HP x 2 = 40, so no.

      • Quote From Neoguli

        It fixes the issue with the Twin-fin variant, but it nowhere does the same justice to Boar variant. Divine Spirit and Inner Fire still exist, and 20HP x 2 = 40, so no.

        The Boar version can already do that if it wants. At least that would require more combo pieces and mana, which will either drag down win rates by itself or allow a bit more time for some tech cards to be played.

  • Switcheroo

    Easy nerf -> 3 mana: Draw 2 minions. Swap their mana costs.

    Just kill this kind of broken decks. The card would still be playable.

    • Quote From Maurice

      Switcheroo

      Easy nerf -> 3 mana: Draw 2 minions. Swap their mana costs.

      Just kill this kind of broken decks. The card would still be playable.

      That's not a nerf. That's an entirely new effect. An effect that allows you to play a turn 3 Kazakusan.

      Yes, that's more preferable. But I feel like that's a lot more design limiting.

  • Hecklebot, Blademaster Okani and pray for bad draw.

  • not even 48 hours and already cry about decks that need nerf .
    Thats a big lol

    • Quote From NLbouncyknight

      not even 48 hours and already cry about decks that need nerf .
      Thats a big lol

      Can you elaborate why it's lol? Have you played against the deck? Do you have the opinion that getting two 20/20 Charge minions on turn 3 quite consistentely is a sign for a healthy game state?

      Do you like games where winning or losing doesn't depend on what you do but only if the oppponent gets the right cards?

    • Quote From NLbouncyknight

      not even 48 hours and already cry about decks that need nerf .
      Thats a big lol

      Oh trust me, I'm 100% aware that I'm going into this sounding like your average whiny hearthstone player. But if you're not going to give any sort of input and instead be an asshole, then entertain yourself somewhere else.

  • It took me a while to even realise this thread is talking about Wild, because sadly this is happening in Standard too with Twin-fin Fin Twin and Deathwing the Destroyer. Obviously the minions being Rush rather than Charge means you don't die as instantly, but without even the tools Wild has to counter it, there is just as little chance to fend off the two 12/12s before you die the next turn.

    Bliz pls. I just want to play my cool new Colossal minions, not be wrecked by murlocs twice the size :'(

    • Snowball Fight! can make the Priest player concede. If they ever dare play Twin-fin on curve, you slam the aforementioned spell onto them and leave a 12/1 that is Frozen. Wild's a more... complicated story. We may see Switcheroo banned from Wild, even.

      On the contrary, I wish we had Bladestorm back as another counter to the strategy.

  • For the Wild variant of the deck I'd honestly leave Switcheroo untouched and I'd change Vivid Nightmare instead. Generally, the fact that the card copies the attack has not been particularly relevant in decks that used it in the past, the reason they used it was to copy deathrattles or persistent effects such as Nazmani Bloodweaver or Malygos and such. If you can't copy the boar for the 20 dmg punch, you're left with a 20/20 charge that then requires further shenanigans with Divine Spirit + Inner Fire, which will usually give the opposing deck enough time to either Rat the pig, aggro or combo out the opponent, or otherwise interfere with the gameplan. Then it might be manageable.

    Personal bias but I'd actually hate for Switcheroo to get nerfed in cost. I don't care for the swapping effect at all, but the ability to tutor out two minions out of your deck for the cost of an Arcane Intellect is pretty neat, previously only offered by Insight. I've been using it in Nazmani Bloodweaver + Gadgetzan Auctioneer Priest to discount Prophet Velen, copy it and Mind Blast the opponent to death. Sloppy combo but fun.

    Sadly that wouldn't really help Standard, not sure what the Standard-legal options are there to counter the rush dragons. If it is counterable the meta can adjust and counter the deck into oblivion. Can't speak on that though.

      • Sure, there are answers to it. But that doesn't make it okay or healthy. You need to be running some very specific cards that not every deck can afford to use. Do you really want to run trash like Plague Scientist or Noble Sacrifice in a non-Secret deck just to counter one deck with a 50% winrate? That's just gonna tank your winrate against everything else. You also need to have drawn that specific card by turn 2 -- they're playing a deck designed to tutor, you presumably are not, so that's much less consistent on your end.

        The problem with Switcheroo isn't that it's overpowered. It's sitting at a less than positive winrate. The problem is that doing a coinflip isn't very engaging gameplay, and needs to be changed for that reason.

  • Just make it 5 mana. Switcheroo has a degenerate effect and degenerate effects should come with a heavy tax so they don't get too broken.

  • I so hope they don't change switcheroo in standard. I finally made silence priest (sort of) work with it. If it's nerged it will be dumbster again...

    But honestly why not change the boar to eg rush? It just feels it limits design space too much...

    • So... ban Board and nerf Twin-fin to summon another Twin-fin and NOT another copy of itself? I swear Blizzard isn't learning the lessons of minions such as Twin-fin or Irondeep Trogg.

      • I wouldn't mind if they blanket applied this to everything, period. Nothing should summon an identical copy, just copy of the base minion. They could bundle that with the Vivid Nightmare change I suggested. Getting kinda sick of infinite Shudderwocks all the time.

  • I completely agree that the Switcheroo Priest is a tilting, highrolly deck, but the data on HSReplay (which is certainly only preliminary since the expansion just launched) suggests that it's generally pretty bad in Standard. In theory that should be enough to fix the problem on its own, but here are some of my thoughts on the cards in question:

    • If the mana cost of Switcheroo were to increase, it would only serve to make the card exclusively relevant to high-roll decks (because it would be too expensive as draw elsewhere). That seems bad.
    • I actually think it's good to have a limited number of cards like Twin-fin Fin Twin that summon a "copy" rather than "another" version of the card. This incentivizes handbuffing strategies, which I think is valuable. Without that copying, it's on par with Spring Rocket in terms of its power level, which seems a little wrong since it's a rare compared to a common.
    • Stonetusk Boar seems to see play in Wild exclusively as part of a degenerate combo deck, but I wouldn't love seeing it removed because a lot of those degenerate combos require assembling lots of cards

    With all that in mind, I think the best fix is to ban Switcheroo in Wild and remove Rush from Twin-fin Fin Twin. The former solves the Wild problem completely, and the latter should make Switcheroo Priest even more vulnerable to aggressive strategies, driving down the win rate for Standard Switcheroo Priest so low that no one will want to play it. (You could consider upping the base stats of the Twin-fin a bit to account for the change.) 

    With these changes, Switcheroo can still be a relevant card in Silence Priest or Miracle Priest strategies, and Twin-fin Fin Twin can still be relevant to handbuff decks where it was clearly intended to be relevant. Switcheroo Priest will still be intact enough for people to play it if they really love that high-rolling nonsense, but it will be slow enough that it won't become a major part of the meta ecosystem.

    • Probably the best compromise. I like the proposal of removal of Rush on Twin-fin, as I am not even sure if they are played in Shudderwock decks despite their current effect.

    • Quote From meisterz39

      I completely agree that the Switcheroo Priest is a tilting, highrolly deck, but the data on HSReplay (which is certainly only preliminary since the expansion just launched) suggests that it's generally pretty bad in Standard. In theory that should be enough to fix the problem on its own, but here are some of my thoughts on the cards in question:

      • If the mana cost of Switcheroo were to increase, it would only serve to make the card exclusively relevant to high-roll decks (because it would be too expensive as draw elsewhere). That seems bad.
      • I actually think it's good to have a limited number of cards like Twin-fin Fin Twin that summon a "copy" rather than "another" version of the card. This incentivizes handbuffing strategies, which I think is valuable. Without that copying, it's on par with Spring Rocket in terms of its power level, which seems a little wrong since it's a rare compared to a common.
      • Stonetusk Boar seems to see play in Wild exclusively as part of a degenerate combo deck, but I wouldn't love seeing it removed because a lot of those degenerate combos require assembling lots of cards

      With all that in mind, I think the best fix is to ban Switcheroo in Wild and remove Rush from Twin-fin Fin Twin. The former solves the Wild problem completely, and the latter should make Switcheroo Priest even more vulnerable to aggressive strategies, driving down the win rate for Standard Switcheroo Priest so low that no one will want to play it. (You could consider upping the base stats of the Twin-fin a bit to account for the change.) 

      With these changes, Switcheroo can still be a relevant card in Silence Priest or Miracle Priest strategies, and Twin-fin Fin Twin can still be relevant to handbuff decks where it was clearly intended to be relevant. Switcheroo Priest will still be intact enough for people to play it if they really love that high-rolling nonsense, but it will be slow enough that it won't become a major part of the meta ecosystem.

      Banning Switcheroo from wild would solve most things, for now. When it eventually rotates, I doubt the world have moved on to the extent that the combo would cease to be relevant. Turn 4 OTK is about as fast as it gets, barring druid bs.

      I can't say I can agree with the twinfin solution though. Removing rush from this indirectly reduces the viability of murloc and handbuff decks, and looking at their power levels I wouldn't call that fair at all, particularly when they can just nerf switcheroo to 4 or limit its draw to cards that costs less than 6.

      But knowing team5, they'd probably just increase switcheroo's and twinfin's costs. An effective though less elegant fix.

      Friendly

  • Easiest solution is probably to nerf Switcheroo's mana cost to 5. It's very sad though because Switcheroo is an effective tutor for other priests decks that needs it, and it's ruined by a broken interaction.

  • Or, I have a better idea. Make it so that Switcheroo only swaps health. That way:

    • The card is still as effective at tutoring for decks that want it.
    • Solving the standard version without nerfing twin fin.
    • Forcing the wild version to use Divine Spirit + Topsy/Inner fire/Bless to go for the kill instead of either using vivid nightmares or just callously dropping a 20/20 with charge at turn 4 against decks that can't deal with it. And without nerfing anything else too

    Maybe it's still a problem in wild though? I don't know how consistent you get those two specific cards at turn 4.

    Edit: You can still use vivid nightmares, you just have to use the attack buff cards first which is a lot less ideal I'd say.

  • Yeah. Switcheroo is so busted that I lost to one who used it in tandem with Worgen Infiltrator.

  • Or how about this:

    3 mana: Swap the mana cost of 2 minions in your hand.

    The card becomes way more consistent this way and the otk will still be available, but the combo normally comes a lot later, because you don`t have to draw one specific card but at least 3 specific cards.

    Maybe additionally raise the mana cost of the spell.

     

    • I...don't understand how that preserves the combo whatsoever. You pay 3 mana (!!!) to draw no cards and create a 4 mana 1/1 boar and a 1 20/20 darkness, assuming you already have them in hand. Where's the combo? I don't think that effect would see play in Priest even if it was 0 mana.

    • Quote From Maurice

      Or how about this:

      3 mana: Swap the mana cost of 2 minions in your hand.

      The card becomes way more consistent this way and the otk will still be available, but the combo normally comes a lot later, because you don`t have to draw one specific card but at least 3 specific cards.

      Maybe additionally raise the mana cost of the spell.

       

      Uhh no. Again, that's an entirely new effect that's pretty much a worse version of the one that you proposed previously.